What price Webber?

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

11 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I think its no coincidence that our periods of success have coincided with the board bringing in Mcnally and then Webber and effectively stepping back and allowing them to run the show, at least in terms of the football side of things. They get credit for that and the good times the appointments have brought of course.  Much credit can be given for recognising your own limitations rather than ploughing on and doing the same thing again and again. Its a shame that Mcnally appeared to lose the plot a bit in his latter years which set us back again.

 In contrast, it appears to me, in periods where our board have had to have more direct involvement in football matters (or I suppose in the case of Moxey just made an appointments that wasn;t great) our decision making has been less successful and I would say on occasions a little too sentimental/emotional at times. 

Agree with this 100%

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

3 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

I think its no coincidence that our periods of success have coincided with the board bringing in Mcnally and then Webber and effectively stepping back and allowing them to run the show, at least in terms of the football side of things. They get credit for that and the good times the appointments have brought of course.  Much credit can be given for recognising your own limitations rather than ploughing on and doing the same thing again and again. Its a shame that Mcnally appeared to lose the plot a bit in his latter years which set us back again.

 In contrast, it appears to me, in periods where our board have had to have more direct involvement in football matters (or I suppose in the case of Moxey just made an appointments that wasn;t great) our decision making has been less successful and I would say on occasions a little too sentimental/emotional at times. 

Jim, what's the evidence for that having happened? I agree about sentimentality. I long ago identified that as Smith and Jones significant weakness, alongside several qualities.

And I can think of three (offhand only three) occasions when that has led to plainly bad decisions. Keeping Worthington on into the 2006-07 season when he had obviously lost his way (according to one insider at Carrow Road he had started to lose the plot as far back as the promotion season, but I suspect some exaggeration there). And appointing Gunn, and then, oh dear, reappointing him.

But it is the role of owners to make the big decisions on the key executives (the CEO and the manager) at a football club. Sometimes they will get it right (Doncaster and McNally in their early years and Webber so far) and sometimes wrong (Moxey). And they will rely on the CEO they have chosen to give them good advice on who the manager, or now head coach, should be. And sometimes that will work well, and sometimes not so well.

But that is not the same as this off-stated but never substantiated claim that sometimes they don't leave it to the people they have appointed to do their jobs but get more involved in running the football side of the business and that it is possible to tell when that has happened because the club declines. And when they draw back our fortunes improve.

[sonyc 5,492]

My son found this snippet. Gives you a sense of Webber

[Jim Smith 2,314]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

Jim, what's the evidence for that having happened? I agree about sentimentality. I long ago identified that as Smith and Jones significant weakness, alongside several qualities.

And I can think of three (offhand only three) occasions when that has led to plainly bad decisions. Keeping Worthington on into the 2006-07 season when he had obviously lost his way (according to one insider at Carrow Road he had started to lose the plot as far back as the promotion season, but I suspect some exaggeration there). And appointing Gunn, and then, oh dear, reappointing him.

But it is the role of owners to make the big decisions on the key executives (the CEO and the manager) at a football club. Sometimes they will get it right (Doncaster and McNally in their early years and Webber so far) and sometimes wrong (Moxey). And they will rely on the CEO they have chosen to give them good advice on who the manager, or now head coach, should be. And sometimes that will work well, and sometimes not so well.

But that is not the same as this off-stated but never substantiated claim that sometimes they don't leave it to the people they have appointed to do their jobs but get more involved in running the football side of the business and that it is possible to tell when that has happened because the club declines. And when they draw back our fortunes improve.

Well my evidence for them taking a step back after Mcnally was brought in was that they told me themselves back in the day. We bumped into them in the pub before the game at Brentford on the day Lambert was appointed and as usual they were more than happy to have a chat and were quite open that after relegation they had gone out and got some advice from various people and Mcnally had been recommended to them (by Martin O'Neill I think) and so they had brought him in and were leaving him to it. so much so that they didn't actually know Lambert had been appointed until we told them and didn't really seem to have been involved in that appointment at all.

I think prior to that, although Doncaster was there my perception was (and I will admit its only my perception) they were much more heavily involved in football matters with Doncaster much more implementing the wishes of the board rather than the CEO shaping the strategy and the board going along with it (or not as the case may be) which I feel is much more how it works now and has done very much since Mcnally came in. That's really what i'm getting at. I think the club dipped/suffered a bit during the latter years of the McNally era mainly because he was not operating at the same ruthless/clear thinking level he had been previously. I think you need someone with that sort of edge at the club in modern day football and the sense I have is that Webber has that hard edge too. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

Just now, Jim Smith said:

Well my evidence for them taking a step back after Mcnally was brought in was that they told me themselves back in the day. We bumped into them in the pub before the game at Brentford on the day Lambert was appointed and as usual they were more than happy to have a chat and were quite open that after relegation they had gone out and got some advice from various people and Mcnally had been recommended to them (by Martin O'Neill I think) and so they had brought him in and were leaving him to it. so much so that they didn't actually know Lambert had been appointed until we told them and didn't really seem to have been involved in that appointment at all.

I think prior to that, although Doncaster was there my perception was (and I will admit its only my perception) they were much more heavily involved in football matters with Doncaster much more implementing the wishes of the board rather than the CEO shaping the strategy and the board going along with it (or not as the case may be) which I feel is much more how it works now and has done very much since Mcnally came in. That's really what i'm getting at. I think the club dipped/suffered a bit during the latter years of the McNally era mainly because he was not operating at the same ruthless/clear thinking level he had been previously. I think you need someone with that sort of edge at the club in modern day football and the sense I have is that Webber has that hard edge too. 

PS I would add "not sacking Hughton" early enough and appointing Adams to your list of overly sentimental decisions but then I would accept that the former had arguments for and against. The Adams appointment seems a strange anomaly really when you look at it alongside the other appointments made during Mcnally's time.

[Icecream Snow 761]

18 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Well my evidence for them taking a step back after Mcnally was brought in was that they told me themselves back in the day. We bumped into them in the pub before the game at Brentford on the day Lambert was appointed and as usual they were more than happy to have a chat and were quite open that after relegation they had gone out and got some advice from various people and Mcnally had been recommended to them (by Martin O'Neill I think) and so they had brought him in and were leaving him to it. so much so that they didn't actually know Lambert had been appointed until we told them and didn't really seem to have been involved in that appointment at all.

And Roy Hodgson

https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/norwich-city/how-the-edp-and-evening-news-reported-david-mcnally-s-arrival-at-norwich-city-in-2009-1-4527979

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

30 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Well my evidence for them taking a step back after Mcnally was brought in was that they told me themselves back in the day. We bumped into them in the pub before the game at Brentford on the day Lambert was appointed and as usual they were more than happy to have a chat and were quite open that after relegation they had gone out and got some advice from various people and Mcnally had been recommended to them (by Martin O'Neill I think) and so they had brought him in and were leaving him to it. so much so that they didn't actually know Lambert had been appointed until we told them and didn't really seem to have been involved in that appointment at all.

I think prior to that, although Doncaster was there my perception was (and I will admit its only my perception) they were much more heavily involved in football matters with Doncaster much more implementing the wishes of the board rather than the CEO shaping the strategy and the board going along with it (or not as the case may be) which I feel is much more how it works now and has done very much since Mcnally came in. That's really what i'm getting at. I think the club dipped/suffered a bit during the latter years of the McNally era mainly because he was not operating at the same ruthless/clear thinking level he had been previously. I think you need someone with that sort of edge at the club in modern day football and the sense I have is that Webber has that hard edge too. 

Jim, I agree they need someone hard-nosed as CEO or even as chairman (certainly Bowkett and probably Balls) to steer them away from sentimentality.

As to them saying they would be taking a step back now McNally was there, they may have been talking about having been running things only in the short-term. After all they had sacked Doncaster but also Munby was either sacked or stepped down (I know he was ill at the time so it may have been mutual).

The club was without a CEO for a month before McNally was appointed, and Bowkett didn't arrive until a month after that. So S&J, and perhaps Foulger,  would have had to have stepped in.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

51 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Jim, I agree they need someone hard-nosed as CEO or even as chairman (certainly Bowkett and probably Balls) to steer them away from sentimentality.

As to them saying they would be taking a step back now McNally was there, they may have been talking about having been running things only in the short-term. After all they had sacked Doncaster but also Munby was either sacked or stepped down (I know he was ill at the time so it may have been mutual).

The club was without a CEO for a month before McNally was appointed, and Bowkett didn't arrive until a month after that. So S&J, and perhaps Foulger,  would have had to have stepped in.

Quite possibly Purple, I think Munby had been unwell for a while before he left. I think we both agree for the club to be operating at its optimum it needs a strong CEO with football expertise (or group of executive officers as we have now) to counter balance the natural tendency towards over sentimentalism and perhaps in the earlier days a touch of naivity.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

9 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Quite possibly Purple, I think Munby had been unwell for a while before he left. I think we both agree for the club to be operating at its optimum it needs a strong CEO with football expertise (or group of executive officers as we have now) to counter balance the natural tendency towards over sentimentalism and perhaps in the earlier days a touch of naivity.

Absolutely, Jim.

[nutty nigel 7,513]

4 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

PS I would add "not sacking Hughton" early enough and appointing Adams to your list of overly sentimental decisions but then I would accept that the former had arguments for and against. The Adams appointment seems a strange anomaly really when you look at it alongside the other appointments made during Mcnally's time.

This is a rum old kettle of fish Jimbo. And I see your predicament. It's difficult to blame the owners for managerial appointments made by McNally when you previously said she'd taken a step back when she appointed him. So you can only square it by suggesting that even under McNally the owners dipped in and out depending in our clubs fortunes. 

This current set up is even harder to square. Previously, when it appeared Webber was a one trick pony and Farke was out of his depth, this whole thing was Delia's idea. But then it started to work and it became a success. So now the owners need to be distanced from it.

My old Nan had a weather house. The Delia who lived there came out in the sunshine but went back in when it rained. I guess your Delia does the opposite 🙃

[king canary 7,580]

39 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

This current set up is even harder to square. Previously, when it appeared Webber was a one trick pony and Farke was out of his depth, this whole thing was Delia's idea. But then it started to work and it became a success. So now the owners need to be distanced from it.

Probably if you listen to Big Vince, not sure it was a popular opinion though.

[Nuff Said 5,092]

11 hours ago, It's Character Forming said:

Agree with this 100%

And I disagree 100%. Different strokes and all that.

[Midlands Yellow 3,946]

I haven’t got a clue what the last posts are about . Any helpers ? 

[Midlands Yellow 3,946]

Few

[Midlands Yellow 3,946]

Something about the weather I believe.

[nutty nigel 7,513]

You had a whiff of  the barmaid's apron Midlands?

Have another look in the morning 🙃

Edited May 31, 2019 by nutty nigel