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Dean Coneys boots

The Fulham excuse

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I keep hearing an argument that Fulham blowing a load of money and still being relegated is a good reason why we should not spend much.

I don’t agree. The opposite of spending badly is spending well not spending nothing. The Prem is a huge step up- and experience last time round should serve as all the evidence we need that being miserly leads to misery 

Everyone is very happy at present. And rightly so. But we cannot spurn yet another opportunity- each time we go up we mess it up! 

Here then are three things our recent trips to the Orem should have taught us:

1) wasting money on has been half hearted players is suicide. Cf - Naismith 

2) spending with no plan is suicide - cf overstocked AM but no CB last time round 

3) crossing fingers till January is suicide - cf Dean Ashton and Klose arriving several months too late 

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This thread has a familiar ring to it. It's the same as your other ones.

Still, why use one existing thread when you can start a different one every day.

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not completely wrong though is it?

£27m of Fulham's spend was on mitrovic who was key to their promotion and a natural move. They also lost Frederick's on a free and had to replace him and Carney, their key player in the middle has had an injury hit season.

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1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

2) spending with no plan is suicide - cf overstocked AM but no CB last time round 

After the gem that is Buendia and the find that is Pukki ... do you think Webber will be spending without a plan???? seriously? The planning up until now has been excellent (I forgot Krul)

Edited by ROBFLECK
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1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I keep hearing an argument that Fulham blowing a load of money and still being relegated is a good reason why we should not spend much.

I don’t agree. The opposite of spending badly is spending well not spending nothing. The Prem is a huge step up- and experience last time round should serve as all the evidence we need that being miserly leads to misery 

Everyone is very happy at present. And rightly so. But we cannot spurn yet another opportunity- each time we go up we mess it up! 

Here then are three things our recent trips to the Orem should have taught us:

1) wasting money on has been half hearted players is suicide. Cf - Naismith 

2) spending with no plan is suicide - cf overstocked AM but no CB last time round 

3) crossing fingers till January is suicide - cf Dean Ashton and Klose arriving several months too late 

can see where you are coming from but do not wholly agree. We have massively over achieved this season and honestly I do not expect much from the Prem  next season.

Consider it this way: if we ended up where Middlesbrough did this season (with our style of play not theirs) I think most would agree this would have meant great progress on last season. Then if the following season we made playoffs but didnt get promoted, most would agree this represents more progress. Finally, the season after we win promotion either through the playoffs or automatically, most would agree this would be fulfillment of the project with clear progression over time.

We just smashed that and I see this shot at the Prem as a bit of a freebie in the scheme of things. Even if we go down then plan properly we can go straight back up in far better shape both financially and in terms of club structure and team culture without missing a beat on the  above timeline. Webber has already said that this promotion will finance facility upgrades and finish paying off the mistakes of the past (Wildschut, Jarvis, Naismith, Oliviera, the depressingly long list goes on). I am on board and while I hope we can make a good fist of it in the prem, i feel that this is a much longer term project with better to come on the horizon.

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I disagree almost totally with the op. 

To start with, the premier league is not "a huge step up" - it is hyped by the media as such, but in reality it is just another football league at a higher standard than the one we are leaving.  Making too much of that is just trying to build the drama of it. 

I would rather see the present players having a good go and would even accept not getting anyone in, although we are certain to get some in to replace those that are surplus to requirements....but they will not cost a huge amount.  

People seem to think the team as it is will not be up to the job, yet we have dominated this division with the way we play.  Yes, we can and need to improve, but the players we have can improve and develop. 

You look all through the team/squad and you see players who are of the highest quality - Buendia, Aarons, Vrancic, Pukki, Leitner, Lewis, Godfrey, Zimmermann who has a huge effect on the team, Klose, Stiepermann who will imo surprise everyone again next season, Krul who made crucial saves, particularly towards the end of the season, Hernandez will be a thorn in premier league defences, Trybull who is underated by some, but who has been candiaite for motm several times this season, Mclean who has kept out Vrancic and Leitner for goodness sakes etc etc.

Yes they will need back up and support, so it's there we will need to build the squad, Heisse is there already, along with those that have contributed this season.  Will we spend big? No, it just isn't going to happen. We will spend a small amount on squad building.....but I am looking forwards to the first game next season and seeing 11 players who have played for us this season, preferably with Vrancic as the first name on the teamsheet. He out of all of them has shown he has big match mentality. 

Oh - and if it means we get relegated, so be it. Best we go into the premier league not panicking or being desperate to stay there - we need to go there to play football and enjoy it. That has been the mantra this season and will be next - no worries or concerns and simply continue the same as we have this season, only better.

 

 

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The OP lost all credibility and sensibly stayed away. Now he's back sniffing the possibility of a downturn. Will the others return?

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I'd rather we spent next to nothing and went back down than gamble everything to stay up.  Yes, the gamble may pay off but if it doesn't we'll still have those expensive players to pay and no money left!   If we did go straight back down but kept to Farke's philosophy I could see us coming straight back up but stronger! 

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Fulham spend £100 and messed up, Wolves spend £100m and got 7th. It’s almost as if it isn’t the large amount of money that is the problem, but the plan and due diligence that is used when spending that money. 

Fulham relied too heavily on data and didn’t do their homework on character and personality. They also got a bit giddy with who they could attract and went for some names, rather than getting the balance they needed across the team. 

Wolves had a plan and spent money targeted and wisely. Fulham went crazy. Which way do you think Webber would go? (Not that Norwich have £100m to spend). 

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I think we've been up there enough times of late to know what it needs and that its not how much you spend but how well you spend and making sure you address any obvious weaknesses. Last time we went up we all knew the defence needed addressing but we failed to do it in the summer (because we missed out on ambitious targets and it appeared had no plan B) and ended up panic buying in January to try and cover the gaps and it cost us big time both in terms of who we were able to sign (although Klose not a bad signing) and the terms we had to agree to.

I don't think many of our fans expect us to spend huge money this summer and indeed I think most of us think we can find players to strengthen our squad without paying over inflated fees if we continue to get the recruitment right. 

So far as Fulham are concerned I think they also just tried to change too much, too quickly and actually just made their team worse in the process. our initial promotion under Lambert (and the experiences of plenty of other teams) show that a winning mentality and momentum, supplemented by just a bit of extra quality, can carry you a long way in your first season up there after which you need to start to and continue to evolve. That's the approach I expect us to take - no stupid spending spree, keep faith with the majority of the players who got us up but that does not mean it will be acceptable if we don't act to bring in 3 or 4 quality recruits to bolster the squad. 

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Season 2 in the EPL can be harder than season 1 as a Club tries to progress. 

 

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4 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

The opposite of spending badly is spending well not spending nothing. The Prem is a huge step up- and experience last time round should serve as all the evidence we need that being miserly leads to misery 

The trouble is that nobody thinks that they are spending badly at the time! Owners don't spend 20 million on a player if they think that it's a bad buy!

Our best time with PL promotion came in the Lambert years, when we used loads of the money to repay debt and bought "young and keen." 

Spending within our means may result in relegation - as may over-spending. However, the difference is that if we spend within our means, we have every chance of being competitive going forwards. If we overspend it may take years to recover. The Championship and League one is littered with examples of this.

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2 hours ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Fulham spend £100 and messed up, Wolves spend £100m and got 7th. It’s almost as if it isn’t the large amount of money that is the problem, but the plan and due diligence that is used when spending that money. 

Fulham relied too heavily on data and didn’t do their homework on character and personality. They also got a bit giddy with who they could attract and went for some names, rather than getting the balance they needed across the team. 

Wolves had a plan and spent money targeted and wisely. Fulham went crazy. Which way do you think Webber would go? (Not that Norwich have £100m to spend). 

Oh no! Don't say that Bethnal, a certain poster will NOT be happy .

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I have no idea what next season will bring but I have a higher degree of confidence that Stuart and Daniel will know what is needed and bring in suitable reinforcements than I have in previous years. We will approach it our way and I am more than happy with that. I am proud to support the NCFC identity.

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3 hours ago, capricorn1 said:

I'd rather we spent next to nothing and went back down than gamble everything to stay up.  Yes, the gamble may pay off but if it doesn't we'll still have those expensive players to pay and no money left!   If we did go straight back down but kept to Farke's philosophy I could see us coming straight back up but stronger! 

The gamble may pay off, but you have to keep gambling every season, eventually one bad season and we end up like Bolton.

I keep hearing arguments about whether we should spend lots of money or not but we don't have lots of money so have to be creative.

There's no reason we can't sign 4 Or 5 free transfers of prem quality. 

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Part of Webbers talk is expectation management. I suspect several of the lower EPL teams are no better, indeed worse than than the better Championship ones including us. We just have to be better than these next season; more clinical and fewer defensive errors and keep some momentum and team morale. Yes we need some extra players but nothing idiotic. Mid table I expect to finish...much like Lambert's first season.

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53 minutes ago, glory.win or die. said:

The gamble may pay off, but you have to keep gambling every season, eventually one bad season and we end up like Bolton.

I keep hearing arguments about whether we should spend lots of money or not but we don't have lots of money so have to be creative.

There's no reason we can't sign 4 Or 5 free transfers of prem quality. 

Would be hard (impossible) to find that many Prem quality players on a free.

Also, worth noting that ‘free’ transfers aren’t actually free. The amount the club would have spent on the transfer fee mostly ends up going to the player and his agent in increased wages and signing on fees. This is especially the case in high quality players who are in high demand (which any players of prem quality would be). 

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How do you define Prem quality though? Players who are proven at that level, or player who have the attributes to do well in it?

I doubt many people other than our scouting team would have considered Pukki a high enough quality player to notch 30 goals in the Championship, let alone be available on a free.

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1 minute ago, Ian said:

How do you define Prem quality though? Players who are proven at that level, or player who have the attributes to do well in it?

I doubt many people other than our scouting team would have considered Pukki a high enough quality player to notch 30 goals in the Championship, let alone be available on a free.

I don’t think the Norwich scouting team thought he was good enough to score 30 goals either.

He wasn’t intended to be first choice striker this season. 

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4 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I don’t think the Norwich scouting team thought he was good enough to score 30 goals either.

He wasn’t intended to be first choice striker this season. 

I don't know if that's true or not, but we still signed him, and it's not particularly relevant to the point I was making. The question was how do you define Prem quality? Existing Prem players, players who have the attributes to do well in the division, players who have the atttributes to fit well in a team that play a certain way, or what?

We're obviously not going to be signing world class players, but that doesn't mean we can't recruit players who will fit in well with our system and perform to a good enough level in their individual roles next season.

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Last summer we assembled a set of strikers charged with scoring 30 goals. I don't think we ever expected one player to get so many but we did expect them to do it between them.

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10 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I disagree almost totally with the op. 

To start with, the premier league is not "a huge step up" - it is hyped by the media as such, but in reality it is just another football league at a higher standard than the one we are leaving.  Making too much of that is just trying to build the drama of it. 

 

 

 

This. A huge step up to the Top Six maybe, everyone else is looking down, fighting desperately not to be in the bottom 3 when the music stops. 

If we can get points, any points from the top six, it's a bonus. Everyone else is fair game, yes, they may know how to grind out a result in the Premiership better than us, something we'll have to learn quickly,  that aside, we're as well equipped as we can be, and, with a few additions could have a decent chance next season. 

 

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I suppose we should not be surprised that the more "pessimistic" amongst us will start posting their prophecies of doom early in the hope that at the end of the season they can say "I told you so".

I do not know if it is because I am of a "certain age" but I intend to enjoy next season, regardless of what happens, as I will all subsequent seasons I am able to attend, regardless of which league we are playing in. 

In the grand scheme of things how much we spend etc etc is way down on my list of worries and concerns, my personal motto these days with all things of a more trivial nature - "It is what it is".......

 

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7 hours ago, splendidrush said:

This. A huge step up to the Top Six maybe, everyone else is looking down, fighting desperately not to be in the bottom 3 when the music stops. 

If we can get points, any points from the top six, it's a bonus. Everyone else is fair game, yes, they may know how to grind out a result in the Premiership better than us, something we'll have to learn quickly,  that aside, we're as well equipped as we can be, and, with a few additions could have a decent chance next season. 

 

I think it is a huge step up now. 

A few seasons ago there were quite a few bad teams in the Prem, saved by the fact only 3 teams could get relegated and someone else was always imploding. However, I don’t really think that is the case anymore. 

Most teams in the Premier League are now ‘smart’ to some extent. Either driven by having a sporting director or a manager who understands these things. Norwich did a lot of clever things with data and recruitment this season and in the Championship that gave them an edge over the other teams. But in the Premier League almost everyone is doing that, the edge is significantly diminished. It is harder to find that uncovered gem as all the teams are looking hard and most of the them are using the same data and the same tools. 

Looking at the current premier league table, I don’t see a selection of clubs that I would say are liable to making massive mistakes in the summer or imploding in any great way. The biggest basket cases for me are in the Top 6, with Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal all having chaotic backrooms. 

It will be as hard as it ever has been to survive next season. 

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3 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I think it is a huge step up now. 

A few seasons ago there were quite a few bad teams in the Prem, saved by the fact only 3 teams could get relegated and someone else was always imploding. However, I don’t really think that is the case anymore. 

Most teams in the Premier League are now ‘smart’ to some extent. Either driven by having a sporting director or a manager who understands these things. Norwich did a lot of clever things with data and recruitment this season and in the Championship that gave them an edge over the other teams. But in the Premier League almost everyone is doing that, the edge is significantly diminished. It is harder to find that uncovered gem as all the teams are looking hard and most of the them are using the same data and the same tools. 

Looking at the current premier league table, I don’t see a selection of clubs that I would say are liable to making massive mistakes in the summer or imploding in any great way. The biggest basket cases for me are in the Top 6, with Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal all having chaotic backrooms. 

It will be as hard as it ever has been to survive next season. 

I don't disagree with the statement that it will be hard to survive , but I am sure that if we can keep the togetherness and the positive vibe going in the dressing room and on the pitch (reason why we scored so many late winners and equalisers) that we will be able to compete! I don't think that clubs like Brighton , Southampton or Burnley are so far ahead of us that we won't be able to compete with them. Yet I do think that we are forced to sign some quality players (this doesn't mean expensive!) to add to the squad. 

Some of the players we have are not going to be good enough in the PL. I am thinking of a lad like Srbeny... Then again I think the best players in our team like Buendia , Vrancic, young max Aarons , Ben Godfrey ... are ready to shine in the PL
 

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Completely agree. Spend smart. We're in a great position where our better players are tied up with long term contracts. I'm sure Webber has been building in various team performance clauses since his arrival and, actually, we go with the majority of what we've got. We only need to add 2 or 3 new guys to beef out the squad, unlike Sheffield United, who really are going to struggle. Best players are Sharp (aging striker) and Henderson (was on loan and won't be cheap to sign)

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I don't think we are a million miles away from the bottom six in the Prem, at the moment. But we will add players and so will they.

Whoever achieves the correct blend will do well and their club will survive the drop. And that is all we can hope for in terms of position in the table. Remember the first season under Hughton. Worried we might be relegated with two games to go and yet finished in the middle of the table.

But if we are entertained once again by our team then position in the table, while still important, becomes a bit less essential.

We have proved this season, against the opinions of most, that it is possible to achieve promotion while be self financing.

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The Fulham excuse isn't an excuse- it is just a reality for us that we can't afford to spend even 50% of what Fulham did, especially on wages.

We have to be aware of our clubs financial limitations which means planning and budgeting as if we go straight back down. So players wages have to be sensible, contracts have to be well structured and we have to be confident that anyone on a larger wage can be moved on if we do go down. 

The advantage Fulham have financially over a team like us is less about what they can spend in the Premier League and more about what they can afford to carry in the Championship.

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