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All the Germans

Style or Survival

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Hypothetical situation. By some mystical means, you know for a fact that if Farke is manager next season we will get relegated  and you also know that if we changed to Pulis / Hughton / Allardyce (don't focus on the individual, just representative of the boring, defensive style) we would grind out enough 0-0's to survive. Which do you pick?

Now, hopefully (and I actually believe) we will survive next season with Farke, I'm just interested if people would sacrifice the entertaining and special football we have played to guarantee survival? I wouldn't.

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Posted (edited)

I would take survival every time personally. 

However, with this squad, if we tried to play the Pulis/Allardyce way we’d get stuffed every week. We will have to play how we have done this year (maybe with minor tweaks occasionally to add a bit more defensive cover) and we’ll either stay up or not. But it’s the only way this squad should and will play.

Edited by Aggy

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Farke and this style of football. If only because we don't currently have the players suited to the other, and besides which it's soul destroying. I also don't want to see us starting all over again recruiting "athletes" and "experience". Our future is very exciting if we can keep to this new model of technically astute, fluid and incisive movement players. Let's be the Ajax of the English game. 

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Posted (edited)

Survival, initially, then looking to evolve and develop as a club as we move forward, like Stoke did with Pulis and then Hughes (three consecutive top half finishes playing good football before it all fell apart).

However, it's obviously a more romantic idea to continue our cavalier, attacking style and hoping we get enough wins to survive despite taking some hidings, rather grinding out enough 0-0 draws to do it.

However, I felt that Fulham had enough about them to continue their attacking 4-3-3 style this season and still do well, and we've seen how that turned out. Their defence is all over the place and they can't outscore the opposition with such a leaky backline.

Based on that, I get the impression that we should (and will) tighten up a bit. It'll be a tough balancing act.

EDIT: This first paragraph is purely a response to the hypothetical question.  It's better to survive with dull football (Stoke, Burnley, Brighton) than it is to get relegated in 'style' (Holloway's Blackpool). I don't think for one minute we should try and play Pulis style football, before anyone tries to take it out of context.

Edited by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

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I believe in the long term plan. Stick with Farke knowing that he gives us the best chance of going back up and with s sustainable model. Many other models particularly the one suggested cost a packet bring in players with limited resale value  and at some stage gettin 40-45 points every season with no chance of changing will become unsustainable. See stoke and wba for proof.

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Id pick guaranteed success every time.

Though of course, no such thing exists. Attrition football is no guarantee of survival as Hughton found out, and as it is rather uninspiring, proves unsustainable.

We had success with Lambert in his first Prem season because we were daring. Safe football ultimately isnt safe 

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Posted (edited)

Style ...just slightly ahead for me (and now notice I'm in the minority reading above posts. Surfer excluded). I want to enjoy my football not to turn off under some Hughtonesque inertia. Even Brighton fans have not been entertained this year. I imagine they want more. Yet that is not to denigrate his ability to keep them there.

I think our philosophy will see us play in the same way as this year. Or try.

Edited by sonyc
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Survival in my opinion. Style with no substance gets incredibly frustrating to watch. 

That said, I don't think this team is able to play the Hughton/Pulis style effectively. We would not have been promoted if we punted the ball and played for long throws - and there is no way we would stay in the premier league doing it.

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The only way to survive is to carry on playing as we do but tighten up a bit at the back and cut out the defensive errors that result in silly goals

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I suspect we will see our style of football, however I also suspect that when we play against the top 6 we will fall into the back 5 re Chelsea and Arsenal last year in the FA Cup.

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There are two fantastic sides another three or four very good sides in the Premier League ,City are quite capable of getting points off any of the others especially if we add a few more good hungry youngsters.No dull football for me please it wouldn’t work for us.

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Posted (edited)

Anyone watch Burnley at Everton last night ? They look years behind us when comes to playing. There style obviously suits them but I’m not sure I’d want to watch it now.

Edited by FenwayFrank
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1 hour ago, FenwayFrank said:

Anyone watch Burnley at Everton last night ? They look years behind us when comes to playing. There style obviously suits them but I’m not sure I’d want to watch it now.

That's the point behind my question. Whilst I didn't watch it, the style of play a lot of teams adopt, is a pragmatic style of play that is awful to watch but will grind out sufficient results. Personally, I watch football to be entertained and this season has been fantastic entertaining football, more so than any other season I've witnessed. I would not swap that for boring, rigid, defensive football, even it meant the difference between survival. It would feel more of a step backwards than playing the same, ultimately coming up short and getting relegated.

I realise that it's easy to say how fantastic and entertaining this season has been when we've done so well. It may not be as entertaining when we're losing but I at least feel when we're losing that we have a chance of getting back into it, whereas the Hughton / Pulis style doesn't give me that hope.

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I start with the expectation that we will likely be relegated. So long as we give it a go in our own style and retain the ability and financial wherewithal to go again I won't be too upset if that happens. I have every confidence that those in charge will stick to the plan.

Having said that, I will continue to hope that we might just be good enough to stay up but I intend to enjoy the ride whatever the outcome.

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Style, hands down. Yes I would like to survive, of course I would, but we don’t need to fear relegation. 

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The “get it forward” brigade are waiting quietly in their seats, a couple of defeats and they’ll become more vocal. Can’t wait ... 😕

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19 minutes ago, All the Germans said:

That's the point behind my question. Whilst I didn't watch it, the style of play a lot of teams adopt, is a pragmatic style of play that is awful to watch but will grind out sufficient results. Personally, I watch football to be entertained and this season has been fantastic entertaining football, more so than any other season I've witnessed. I would not swap that for boring, rigid, defensive football, even it meant the difference between survival. It would feel more of a step backwards than playing the same, ultimately coming up short and getting relegated.

I realise that it's easy to say how fantastic and entertaining this season has been when we've done so well. It may not be as entertaining when we're losing but I at least feel when we're losing that we have a chance of getting back into it, whereas the Hughton / Pulis style doesn't give me that hope.

I would like us to go about it like Bournemouth. They stick to their ways, they get goals and beat decent teams and occasionally they concede heavily. But Howe sticks to his methods.

I'm hoping Farke plays his way. We know he can put teams out to be competitive (Chelsea and Arsenal last year).

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I think the great advantage of having someone like Webber, ie the new stucture, is there will be good support for Farke. I cant see a situation, as happened with AN after the Newcastle game, being allowed to develop under the new regime.

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The PL is like a roller coaster here at Knott's Berry Farm near Disneyland (yes it was once a Blackberry and Boisenberry farm before they built the amusement park over it) Ghostrider, is an older wooden rollercoaster (a much bigger version of the one at Yarmouth) which shakes you to pieces and gives you a splitting headache. Ride it twice and you are down for the day. Ride it once and you want to try it all aver again. So you know it will chew you up and spit you out, but really is the whole point of it! 

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Maintain and nurture the philosophy. It is a long term Ajax/Auxerre plan.

Just as 3 early defeats this season did not derail the over-arching direction of travel, nor should relegation next.

This is a good, true, meaningful identity for us. It fits how we want to see ourselves, it is beautiful and repeatable, even without significant resources.

It is something to be proud of. Mere survival in the Premier League is not that by and of itself.

Parma

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14 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Maintain and nurture the philosophy. It is a long term Ajax/Auxerre plan.

Just as 3 early defeats this season did not derail the over-arching direction of travel, nor should relegation next.

This is a good, true, meaningful identity for us. It fits how we want to see ourselves, it is beautiful and repeatable, even without significant resources.

It is something to be proud of. Mere survival in the Premier League is not that by and of itself.

Parma

 

Indeed. After the football board and the Norwich way, we seem to have finally developed that philosophy we were after.

I like the 4-2-3-1 formation. I find other formations always seem to be lacking somewhere and you need 12 men to provide the balance. With this formation you arent a man short in defence as you are with 3 men at the back (to give extra support up the pitch) but you can also support the vital parts of the side. By not playing true wingers (even though Hernandez naturally drifts), you have three attacking midfielders able to support the lone striker so the lone striker is not isolated. You also dont lose width because you play with attacking fullbacks who provide that width meaning the attacking midfielders can supplement the width, but dont provide it exclusively and are subsequently free to support the attack centrally. The two defensive midfielders provide the defensive screen allowing the fullbacks to push forward. In defence they support the back four, making it a back six. In attack they combine with the 3 attacking midfielders to pack the midfield in a 5.

All in all, I think this system has no major tactical achilles heel.

My concern for next season however is that this system relies on having possession and also relies on the fullbacks pushing forward. Against superior opposition, I wonder how much we will have the lion's share of possession like we have this season. If that is the case, our fullbacks will need to spend more time defending and less time raiding. 2 questions on this. Firstly we know Jamal and Max can run all day, supplement the attack and have pace, but do we really know how good they are at defending yet? And secondly, if they start to play like more conventional fullbacks, what impact does that have on our ability to score goals? Without the overlapping fullbacks we start to rely more on Hernandez and Buendia to drift wide and offer the width. If they do that they're not supporting the striker and the central attacking midfielder - who may also get sucked deep to aid the defence. All of a sudden that unisolated striker becomes isolated, and Pukki is suddenly cast as a conventional lone striker. This role is usually played by a Wilbraham/Holt type target man, whose physicality carves out terrritory and provides and outlet. This isnt Pukki, so suddenly our prolific striker becomes anonymous.

Our system works well in this division. I have my concerns that we will need to change the way we play when competing in the Premier League, which means we suddenly stop doing what made us successful.

Perhaps we need to take the Lambert approach to Premier League survival and not the Hughton approach - we need to stick to our philosophy, despite fears we are inferior and see how we fare. No guts, no glory

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GMD "Perhaps we need to take the Lambert approach to Premier League survival and not the Hughton approach - we need to stick to our philosophy, despite fears we are inferior and see how we fare. No guts, no glory"

I like it - basically agree but we need to show that we can outscore the top 6..... :classic_biggrin::classic_biggrin::classic_biggrin:

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In recent years we've had 2 great play off finals, and a number of exciting promotions with superb days out supporting this team. I don't want to trudge along in the PL grinding out dull draws just to be safe in 17th. 

lets play with our style and adapt as necessary. 

Imagine being a club missing out on Europe each season but doing just enough to stay in the league, forfeiting the cups to do so?

Not for me. Get in there and give it some.

History states we will be back winning promotion again, lets enjoy the ride with our style and brand.

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I think the main dilemma for us is how we set up the centre of defence and centre mids.

This year we have benefitted with playing ball playing cbs and playing out from the back. At times it looks a very risky strategy, at boro and Preston for example there were times where they looked like they had our number and were forcing us to make silly errors when playing our passing out from the back. I feel like this will be commonplace in the prem especially against the pressing games of Liverpool and Man City.

This is where someone like Klose could be useful. Perhaps not as mobile as Zimmermann and godfrey but perhaps a bit more intelligent, experienced and composed at dealing with elite level attackers.

Centre mid, we have often sacrificed physicality with technical excellence as well. It will be interesting to see if we decide we need a younger, better version of Tettey in there in place of the more technical but less aggressive Trybull or Vrancic. We might even have to go to a more 4 1 2 2 1 with a dm, 2 cms, wingers and a striker with no out and out central attacking mid.

Hopefully we can strike a happy balance and bring what has worked so well for us this season and incorporate it into an entertaining but sensible strategy that will ensure survival. I do feel our centre back partnership will be key though.

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26 minutes ago, East Rider said:

In recent years we've had 2 great play off finals, and a number of exciting promotions with superb days out supporting this team. I don't want to trudge along in the PL grinding out dull draws just to be safe in 17th. 

lets play with our style and adapt as necessary. 

Imagine being a club missing out on Europe each season but doing just enough to stay in the league, forfeiting the cups to do so?

Not for me. Get in there and give it some.

History states we will be back winning promotion again, lets enjoy the ride with our style and brand.

I agree somewhat but I do think that at least for the first season, survival has to be the absolute goal, even if every game ends nil nil

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Tetteys Jig said:

I agree somewhat but I do think that at least for the first season, survival has to be the absolute goal, even if every game ends nil nil

I fully understand your position but I disagree with it. I want to stick to the philosophy, playing entertaining football. If that means relegation, so be it. This is a long term project to create a footballing identity. In my lifetime, we've generally played good football but had our ups and downs (finishing 3rd in Prem but getting smashed by Blackburn). 

It must be boring being Burnley (or about 7 other teams) and hoping to finish 17th every season and grinding out boring football in the process.  We've had some great times - Wembley was pretty much the best day I've had (don't tell my Mrs - wedding, children being born etc), if we stay up, lets do it in style, if we go down, lets do it in style and come back stronger, with more great days along the way. 

Something I should have mentioned in my first message; I will be bringing this back up in 6 months time, when we've been smashed by Liverpool / Man City and people are calling for Farke to resign and bring in Pulis to "steady the ship"!!

Edited by All the Germans
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