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It's Character Forming

Prem TV money next season ?

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Anyone know what this is likely to be ?


Last year I found that WBA were the bottom club & got just under £100m (I've a memory that we get around £7.5m in the Championship but I can't remember exactly how much,  plus £100k per home game).

 

However there was a comment that the new domestic TV deal isn't quite as good, but I can't find any numbers for that ?

 

Also the overseas TV deal is meant to be excellent but as of next season it's linked to league position - previously it was shared equally between all the clubs (which dates back to when it wasn't much LOL) so is likely to be less good for teams down the bottom.

 

I've had a bit of a search round t'internet but not found anything helpful on this, and really need to get some work done today :classic_biggrin:

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The economic benefit to the City will be huge, exposure in huge markets like the US and China. EPL is a huge brand, hopefully local businesses can piggy back our success

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Never understood that local economy impact guff t.b.h. Why does it matter that some people in the US and China hear the name Norwich City? Does it increase local tourism? Does it increase trade? If you think it does, why do you think it does? The only thing that you can reasonably say is that promotion to the Premier League benefits the income of Norwich City, and potentially Norwich City and its - perhaps increased number of full time and part time - employees spend a portion of that increased income locally. 

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The overseas money is only split on league position after the current level is split evenly, so this isn't too bad. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/07/premier-league-big-six-win-battle-overseas-television-rights

 

The TV money seems to be in the region of £90m - £100m if you finish bottom and then obviously the increased ticketing and merchandise. All in it will probably a £130m - £140m season next year. 

 

I guess it will be similar to the last time we went up though in that we will show a smaller profit in year 1 due to the bonuses that become payable on promotion (as I remeber we did post a small loss when we up under Lambert or this reason), this then washes through in year 2 and beyond.

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29 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Never understood that local economy impact guff t.b.h. Why does it matter that some people in the US and China hear the name Norwich City? Does it increase local tourism? Does it increase trade? If you think it does, why do you think it does? The only thing that you can reasonably say is that promotion to the Premier League benefits the income of Norwich City, and potentially Norwich City and its - perhaps increased number of full time and part time - employees spend a portion of that increased income locally. 

...are you basically saying you don't believe advertising works?

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39 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Never understood that local economy impact guff t.b.h. Why does it matter that some people in the US and China hear the name Norwich City? Does it increase local tourism? Does it increase trade? If you think it does, why do you think it does? The only thing that you can reasonably say is that promotion to the Premier League benefits the income of Norwich City, and potentially Norwich City and its - perhaps increased number of full time and part time - employees spend a portion of that increased income locally. 

Raises the profile of the City mate, its all about being a brand.

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...and to add to your list of "The only thing that you can reasonably say is that promotion to the Premier League benefits the income of Norwich City, and potentially Norwich City and its - perhaps increased number of full time and part time - employees spend a portion of that increased income locally"

1 The huge increase in salaries of all playing and non playing staff...and their continued and increased spending for at least a year. The increase in visitors, friends and family all staying and spending. More new players with their increased spending, new houses etc. 

2. Away fans. More of them. Spending more. Staying in hotels, air b and b, pubs and restuarants.

3. The bump to all sales at Carrow Rd and the bump to all suppliers (local) and their expenditure and increased labour.

4. You may not believe this but people and businessmen, especially from abroad,  and more so the far east go crazy for the Premier League.

5. Press and media increase and relevant expenditure in the local area.

6. Advertising. the mere increase in mentions globally and on social media....it makes a difference.

I could go on but you get the drift. Economics innit :-)

 

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Mr. Surfer has a point. NCFC is a brand, not the City as such.

However, in the same way that the open top bus day was a boom day for local businesses any amount of success for the club will filter through into the local economy in one way or the other. We are a one (league) club city/area after all.

I doubt that there will be coachloads of Chinese swanning up the A11 but there may well be an increase in visitors do to the fact that we will be "on the map" once again.

As the one time brief capital of England and one of the richest cities to boot I do think that Norwich is somewhat under rated as a tourist attraction .... Cathedral, Castle, Open Market,Tudor buildings and streets, Broads, pubs, churches... and have always considered that it compares more than favourably with Canterbury, up the road from me, which attracts millions annually.

The Club will benefit in bucket loads though and it won't just be in increased shirt sales in Finland and Cuba.

The draw of the Premier League is indeed immense and I was always amazed when I used to go to see Arsenal occasionally just how many week-end tripping Scandinavians filled the local pubs on match days (whilst their wives were up the West End shopping.)

Perhaps the local pubs should start serving Hartwall Lapin Kulta, although at nearly 6% alcohol this might lead to problems (I should imagine Teemu could handle it on his off days though.)

 

 

Edited by BroadstairsR

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7 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Thanks guys, anyone seen anything more concrete on the actual tv spondulics as of next year? I could only find past numbers.

This may not directly answer your question, ICF, but it's an interesting read nonetheless:

http://priceoffootball.com/tag/broadcast-income/

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1 hour ago, It's Character Forming said:

Thanks guys, anyone seen anything more concrete on the actual tv spondulics as of next year? I could only find past numbers.

Numbers aren’t finalised yet as there are two domestic packages for TV rights as yet unsold. 

The domestic rights are likely to sell for less than the £5.1bn they went for in 2015. Without the final two packages the rights had sold for £4.5bn, the last two packs are the lowest value ones so won’t make up the £600m. However, international broadcasting rights have sold for over £4bn in total, up from around £3bn previously. 

Norwich will earn more than the £98m WBA did, even if they come last. 

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I sponsored matchball last Friday and was told by our host Bill Punton that it was going to be worth £170m to the club due to the huge increases in overseas TV money.... I suspect that includes parachute... he also recounted that he signed for £12 &10S weekly... the max footballer wage in 1960... how things move on!

 

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11 hours ago, Scottlarock said:

...and to add to your list of "The only thing that you can reasonably say is that promotion to the Premier League benefits the income of Norwich City, and potentially Norwich City and its - perhaps increased number of full time and part time - employees spend a portion of that increased income locally"

1 The huge increase in salaries of all playing and non playing staff...and their continued and increased spending for at least a year. The increase in visitors, friends and family all staying and spending. More new players with their increased spending, new houses etc. 

2. Away fans. More of them. Spending more. Staying in hotels, air b and b, pubs and restuarants.

3. The bump to all sales at Carrow Rd and the bump to all suppliers (local) and their expenditure and increased labour.

4. You may not believe this but people and businessmen, especially from abroad,  and more so the far east go crazy for the Premier League.

5. Press and media increase and relevant expenditure in the local area.

6. Advertising. the mere increase in mentions globally and on social media....it makes a difference.

I could go on but you get the drift. Economics innit 🙂

 

Yeah economics innit. 

1. The players will get a big increase in salary, but that money will quickly leave the local economy in the form of being locked up in savings accounts. A few new players - five say? That's a huge addition to the local housing market - not. Maybe add some more stewards and security on match day and increase in the electronic media team - say 25 extra people on the payroll?

2. More away fans. Yes will accept that, but more away fans means fewer home fans as we already sell out. So there may be some net increase in train tickets and a few hotel rooms, but a lot of food and drink related income is offset because we have to lose some home fans to gain away fans. What we may see is more income for our local coach companies if we take more fans to PL grounds than we did to Championship grounds. 

3. A bump to all sales at Carrow Rd. Why? On most match days we already sell out the ground, so unless prices are raised are you hoping for an increase in replica kits, and new scarves with "we are premiere league"? We can't get a big increase in crowds, in fact we will have 4 fewer home games in the PL than we do this year. 

4.  Yes, traveled throughout Asia, and that is true. Will increase replica kit sales over there, but Asians are going to go to London, not Norwich when they come to visit with families, and they will do business with who they do business with - Norwich and Norfolk are not going to benefit from Asian businessmen saying "oh Norwich, the Canaries, yes a very good team, very famous". Sorry. 

5. Press and media. Commo'n I know they have a reputation for drinking, but that's a few hotel nights, meals and a few beers.

6. Advertising. Yes agreed NCFC should be able to extract more advertising revenue due to the increased TV exposure. 

 

So overall, marginal increase in NCFC and local businesses revenues due to slightly higher crowds, and football related travel bookings in and out of the city, but the big bump is from increased TV revenue and advertising rates, and the big outlay for the club is increased salaries which means money flowing to the savings industry and the national tax man. For Norwich and Norfolk in general, you'd probably have a more positive impact on the economy by building a hundred £250,000 houses; only if NCFC expanded Carrow Rd would you see a similar financial impact for construction, and then an increase in travel, meals, hotel bookings etc - however the club have also pointed out that is a high risk for them as expanding the ground risks loosing the guaranteed income of high season ticket sales if they return back to the Championship.  

So that's not to say that there are not non-financial benefits like local pride, respect, acknowledgement of Premier League status, and we all want NCFC to compete in the highest league that they can, but please don't fall for the "massive impact to Norfolk" guff.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Surfer

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12 hours ago, Scottlarock said:

...are you basically saying you don't believe advertising works?

I think Surfer is implying that if someone.... never mind, Surfer has already explained it. 

Edited by CirclePoint

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Precisely. Now unless Norwich give a share of their increased advertising revenues to the local tourist board so that they can market the attractions of Norwich and Norfolk to those who might actually care about things like history, the broads, Delias' cuisine, or our pristine coastline and wildlife, nothing is going happen. The whole point of advertising is generating awareness within a target audience and then inducing the appropriate action. We'l get more kids wanting to join our football clinics in Tampa Bay because it's associated with a Premier League team yes, but we aren't going to see increased tourism into Norfolk from Florida. 

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14 hours ago, Surfer said:

Never understood that local economy impact guff t.b.h. Why does it matter that some people in the US and China hear the name Norwich City? Does it increase local tourism? Does it increase trade? If you think it does, why do you think it does? The only thing that you can reasonably say is that promotion to the Premier League benefits the income of Norwich City, and potentially Norwich City and its - perhaps increased number of full time and part time - employees spend a portion of that increased income locally. 

Having done work directly for several of our players last time we were in the PL, I can say that a hell of a lot of money from their salaries is spent locally filtering through trades people and local businesses 

Edited by JF

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2 hours ago, Surfer said:

Precisely. Now unless Norwich give a share of their increased advertising revenues to the local tourist board so that they can market the attractions of Norwich and Norfolk to those who might actually care about things like history, the broads, Delias' cuisine, or our pristine coastline and wildlife, nothing is going happen. The whole point of advertising is generating awareness within a target audience and then inducing the appropriate action. We'l get more kids wanting to join our football clinics in Tampa Bay because it's associated with a Premier League team yes, but we aren't going to see increased tourism into Norfolk from Florida. 

I don’t know, I’m off to Florida for a few weeks tomorrow, Disneyland, Seaworld, Universal ain’t got nothing on Pleasurewood hills! 🤣

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16 hours ago, Surfer said:

Never understood that local economy impact guff t.b.h. Why does it matter that some people in the US and China hear the name Norwich City? Does it increase local tourism? Does it increase trade? If you think it does, why do you think it does? The only thing that you can reasonably say is that promotion to the Premier League benefits the income of Norwich City, and potentially Norwich City and its - perhaps increased number of full time and part time - employees spend a portion of that increased income locally. 

There have been quite a few studies on the effects of Premier League football onto a local economy. There is one from 2016 that did a lot of in-depth research into Swansea. 

They concluded that promotion was worth £46m of ‘added value’ to the city and created 216 jobs. There was also a study carried out in 2013 looking at Swansea that estimated the benefit to being around £60m. 

There are quite a few other studies around, all point to a positive impact in the local vicinity due to promotion. It isn’t a massive boon but it is certainly worth something. 

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The Swansea studies were undertaken by Cardiff University, there was also a a more recent study at Huddersfield, an interesting factor is that benefits of worldwide recognition are seen to be greater for regional towns and cities, which of course we are, these areas get an greater boost as presumably they start from a lower base point.

As with a lot of these things, promotion will provide new opertunities for business, how much advantage they take of that of course is a matter for them.

Edited by Van wink

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We'll be minted......Open up the Castle Mall Club Shop again and Yellows serving burgers an' stuff 7 days a week.......YIPPEE!.....

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Surely sponsorship income will increase massively. Presumably there is either a break clause with Leo Vegas or at least an increase based on Premier league exposure. Other sponsors will also be attracted.

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3 hours ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

There are quite a few other studies around, all point to a positive impact in the local vicinity due to promotion. It isn’t a massive boon but it is certainly worth something. 

This just about sums it up, worth having but not massive.

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I agree with what Labrat said in the comments under that linked article. Along the lines of “ why would any businessman do increased business with Norfolk companies based on NCFC being in the Premier League?” They won’t. 

So yes some marginal gains from players spending a bit more money, some extra hotel nights and more expensive meals sold to away fans, but overall the financial benefit accrues to NCFC, and I’m fine with that. 

 

A bit of background here. This type of financial impact statement is a well worn ploy here in US to get local governments to stump up for cost sharing for infrastructure improvements such as roads, car parks or even new stadiums. Virtually every case study shows it’s a con, the profits go to the club owners, the cost to the taxpayers. 

Of course consultants and PR companies go along with the story, it’s how they make their money too.

But it’s yet another example of “trickle down economics” failing - if we just give the rich more money, they will spend more. No they don’t, at least not in proportion to the money you give them. If you want to impact the local economy then you must invest in the lower rungs of the economy,  i.e. add more stewards and give them a pay raise, invest a portion of the additional advertising revenue  in marketing Norwich to non-football fans who actually care that Norwich may be a Fine City for a getaway,  or Norfolk is a great location for a holiday. Or build or renovate something - the Academy is a good example of creating added local value. 

But I suspect a lot of local businesses will be wondering what happened next year to trade around games - there are 4 less of them, that’s over 100,000 less sales of pies, beer, parking fees that will need to be made up just to be even with this season. 

Now if we had terrible crowds in Championship, then yes going up a division would be different, but we are don’t, so the financial impact on the local economy ( not NCFC’s balance sheet ) must be a rather muted one. 

 

But it as long as the local government doesn’t get suckered into expenses beyond supporting a parade and some other side benefits then no harm done to speculate about how wonderful it will all be. I’ll be very glad to see NCFC back in the PL and wish everyone maximum enjoyment of the chase to get there and anticipation of the glories and trials that next season will bring.

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5 minutes ago, Surfer said:

But I suspect a lot of local businesses will be wondering what happened next year to trade around games - there are 4 less of them, that’s over 100,000 less sales of pies, beer, parking fees that will need to be made up just to be even with this season. 

We'll have had many games this year with 'smaller' Championship sides who didn't sell out the away section (I accept many have returned tickets which have been resold to home fans).  I'd be confident that every Prem League side will sell out and we will sell a minimum of 26,000 tickets for every game.

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On 25/04/2019 at 08:36, Woodman said:

We'll have had many games this year with 'smaller' Championship sides who didn't sell out the away section (I accept many have returned tickets which have been resold to home fans).  I'd be confident that every Prem League side will sell out and we will sell a minimum of 26,000 tickets for every game.

OK that's reasonable, so let's apply a little mathematics. Carrow Road capacity is 27,400, so let's assume a sell out for every PL game - with 19 home games that's 520,600 tickets sold.

Now divide that by 23 and you have 22,634. So is the average attendance at Carrow Rd this season more or less than 22,634?  In fact it's about 25,250, so we should expect to see significantly fewer fans through the turnstiles when we are playing in the Premier League. 

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/norwich-city/attendances

(Our only league games this year below 25,000 were Preston, Middlesbrough, Stoke and Villa, and over our last ten home league games our average attendance is just over 26,500) 

 

If we take that approximate 25,250 for our average home attendance this season, we'll see total attendance of 580,000 compared to a maximum of 520,000 in the PL, so a guaranteed 60,000 fewer sales opportunities for food, drink for local vendors - i.e. just over 10% less. 

Indicates prices will go up to compensate, or we had better hope for a couple of cup runs.

 

Edited by Surfer

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Perhaps , as with most things, the truth lies somewhere in between. attendances up, game numbers down.  There may even be a detrimental effect on the City centre as people stay away 'cos Liverpool are in town', just as people may come for the weekend with families because it Norwich is seen as a benign City.

As someone posted above, the main beneficiaries will be NCFC and its Sponsors, due to much greater exposure worldwide.

Edited by wcorkcanary

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