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Daily Mail says we have a transfer cap of £20 million

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6 minutes ago, JF said:

And to avoid any confusion this is the question that has yet to be answered?

Our defence does need strengthening for the Premier League imho!   You obviously don't agree.  You think that the magic fairy will come down let us play the same way, with the same personnel and we will magically improve.

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1 minute ago, norfolkbroadslim said:

Our defence does need strengthening for the Premier League imho!   You obviously don't agree.  You think that the magic fairy will come down let us play the same way, with the same personnel and we will magically improve.

No there isn’t a hope in hell we will play the same way. We need to strengthen with a defensive midfielder, right back cover, wide players and a forward. But regarding your original post of you couldn’t disagree more that the defence is sorted, with the budget we have available and the talent we have in that back four, I can’t see how it could possibly be strengthened.

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It's a strange contradiction that although all our defenders are highly rated individually as a unit they are often cited as a bit of a weakness.

Is this due to Farke's system of playing from the back with high press attacking, failures in midfield defensiveness, bad luck or over-casual play.

If/when  our goals leakage continues in the Premier League then Farke will need to act. Bringing back the experienced Timm Klose is of course one option, whilst another might be to revamp the defence altogether by playing three at the back.

The ongoing conundrum of who to leave out will likely become more clear cut in the PL as some will surely fall by the wayside once exposed to the higher quality of play, both from opposing attackers and midfielders.

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2 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

It's a strange contradiction that although all our defenders are highly rated individually as a unit they are often cited as a bit of a weakness.

Is this due to Farke's system of playing from the back with high press attacking, failures in midfield defensiveness, bad luck or over-casual play.

If/when  our goals leakage continues in the Premier League then Farke will need to act. Bringing back the experienced Timm Klose is of course one option, whilst another might be to revamp the defence altogether by playing three at the back.

The ongoing conundrum of who to leave out will likely become more clear cut in the PL as some will surely fall by the wayside once exposed to the higher quality of play, both from opposing attackers and midfielders.

As has already beed said they will need more protection. The big problem we will have is can we still be a threat going forwards if we sacrifice our attacking play to protect them

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Just now, JF said:

No there isn’t a hope in hell we will play the same way. We need to strengthen with a defensive midfielder, right back cover, wide players and a forward. But regarding your original post of you couldn’t disagree more that the defence is sorted, with the budget we have available and the talent we have in that back four, I can’t see how it could possibly be strengthened.

60 goals conceded last season.  55 goals conceded this season and counting.  Diabolical at defending set pieces for a second season.  I'd actually genuinely be interested in how people think we can improve our defending at set pieces with the same personnel and why it continues to be a problem?  We are going to be facing better quality players, I am not wrong in being concerned and I am sure those that make the decisions are fully aware of our shortcomings. 

Our back 4 are talented I am not doubting that at all!  They are relatively inexperienced and I think that has shown at times this season and will undoubtedly next season against better quality opposition.  I don't blame them for that.  I also, and without scapegoating him, think that at times Krul can be a liability. 

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10 hours ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Norwich need a keeper, a right back, a defensive midfielder, at least one wide player (maybe two) and two strikers. 

Some of those players will be cover and a wide player who can play as a striker (or vice versa) could cover two positions but let’s not underestimate the step up that the Premier League represents. 

And of those, assuming we cannot get all we would want or need, I would hope for a goalkeeper and a striker or wing-striker.

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2 minutes ago, norfolkbroadslim said:

60 goals conceded last season.  55 goals conceded this season and counting.  Diabolical at defending set pieces for a second season.  I'd actually genuinely be interested in how people think we can improve our defending at set pieces with the same personnel and why it continues to be a problem?  We are going to be facing better quality players, I am not wrong in being concerned and I am sure those that make the decisions are fully aware of our shortcomings. 

Our back 4 are talented I am not doubting that at all!  They are relatively inexperienced and I think that has shown at times this season and will undoubtedly next season against better quality opposition.  I don't blame them for that.  I also, and without scapegoating him, think that at times Krul can be a liability. 

We’ve seen before that when we try to protect the defence to stop the goals against we then lose a lot of our attacking threat. That will be the biggest challenge in the PL, getting the balance of protecting the back 4 whilst maintaining a threat going forwards. Interesting season to come 

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Yes the defenders are inexperienced but they stepped up this year and next year they will be better, stronger and wiser......I’m not convinced we need too many changes at the back.

I do agree on a keeper, as much as Krul has been touted as good to have round the dressing room we need a great keeper who can keep us in the game.

Agree too we will need choices up top, Pukki has been superb and Idah might break into the squad, but we need a big unit to chuck on to change the game, crouch type would be great.

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As for conceding goals from set pieces I’ve never understood why you wouldn’t go man to man marking, you have your player, stick with him. Never liked zonal marking myself 

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Think you've hit the nail on the head Indy on the defence front - we've got unbelievably young and inexperienced guys in place, and it's no surprise they've shipped a few.

I think they've improved over the season and see no reason why they won't continue at a higher level.

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24 minutes ago, JF said:

As for conceding goals from set pieces I’ve never understood why you wouldn’t go man to man marking, you have your player, stick with him. Never liked zonal marking myself 

 

Statistically, you concede fewer goals with zonal marking. There's a reason why most of the top teams use it. The reason not to use it is because when a goal is conceded by a team marking zonally, it just looks bad because everyone is standing still.

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1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

 

Statistically, you concede fewer goals with zonal marking. There's a reason why most of the top teams use it. The reason not to use it is because when a goal is conceded by a team marking zonally, it just looks bad because everyone is standing still.

👍🏻

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There will be changes whether we like it or not, we have to trust those changes to DF/SW. If you'd have said at the start of this season, that we'd have 3 academy prospects in our back four and that we would be on the brink of getting promoted, I think you would have had meltdown on here. 

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It should be factored in that tactically simply out scoring the opposition and running higher risks defensively has a stronger success rate in the Championship than in the Premier, where we will no doubt set up differently. 

The ruthlessness and decisiveness of players in the final third in the Premier is far above the Championship, meaning tighter approaches, less forward risks from CDM (or possibly CDMs), wide or three-quarter attackers needing to be far more responsible defensively. Careless turnover passes or very poor decision-making that exposes the shape - such as Hernandez often gets away with at the current level - will no longer be viable risks. 

In short scoring 90 and conceding 60 is perfectly ok in the Championship, scoring 40 and conceding 40 might be a sound tactical ambition in the Premier for a team in 17th place. 

To compare what you did in one place, with one set of parameters, with another place and completely different fixed points is a false judgment. 

Klose and Godfrey are certainly Premier players in the way they operate. It will be the tactics that will differ and rightly so.

Parma

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

It should be factored in that tactically simply out scoring the opposition and running higher risks defensively has a stronger success rate in the Championship than in the Premier, where we will no doubt set up differently. 

The ruthlessness and decisiveness of players in the final third in the Premier is far above the Championship, meaning tighter approaches, less forward risks from CDM (or possibly CDMs), wide or three-quarter attackers needing to be far more responsible defensively. Careless turnover passes or very poor decision-making that exposes the shape - such as Hernandez often gets away with at the current level - will no longer be viable risks. 

In short scoring 90 and conceding 60 is perfectly ok in the Championship, scoring 40 and conceding 40 might be a sound tactical ambition in the Premier for a team in 17th place. 

To compare what you did in one place, with one set of parameters, with another place and completely different fixed points is a false judgment. 

Klose and Godfrey are certainly Premier players in the way they operate. It will be the tactics that will differ and rightly so.

Parma

 

 

 

I certainly don’t disagree and each team will be treated differently, that’s why I can see three Centre backs at some games with two holding players looking to play the wing backs on the break.

But we need to pick up 38 points during the season, so we can’t set up too negative all the time, playing controlled possession football is Farkes game and in a perverse way could be easier in the Premiership than championship level, the difference is quality, for every goal conceded here we probably see five chances up there it’s more likely three chances. Totally agree about not giving the ball away cheaply and the likes of Hernandez & McLean need to be more careful next season.

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I think we’ll sign at least one cb depending on Klose and Hanley staying. 

 a proper defensive midfielder. 

2 wingers

striker. 

Think that would give us a good balance and hopefully enough quality to stay up. I think they’ll look to upgrade on McLean, Hernandez and steiperman from the first eleven. 

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On the defensive side of Norwich’s game I wonder if last season gives more hints about the approach Farke will use next season. 

Norwich were far more defensive last season, and Farke would play Trybull and Tettey and the full backs won’t push as high as they have this season. It lead to Norwich having a record breaking run of clean sheets I seem to remember and criticism from some that Farke was too defensive and negative. Could we see a new defensive midfielder signed to play alongside Trybull to create a more solid centre, with Leitner playing the 10 role ahead of them? 

Farke also experimented with a back 5, but he never seemed that keen on it and reverted back to his preferred 4-2-3-1. 

I do feel that if Norwich use the same approach and tactics next season then they will be on the receiving side of some absolute thumpings. It is of course important to have a balance and not just concentrate on defence but with most Premier League teams, even the ‘rubbish’ ones having some excellent attacking players teams will punish any small slips or weaknesses. 

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Agreed BYG.

Suspect there will be subtle changes in the set up, operating system and overall approach across the xi.

Using the current personnel for context, you could imagine something more akin to a 4-3-3 initial set up, with something like a 2-3-4-1 movement in attack, dropping quickly into a 4-5-1 in defence.

The middle three could be Leitner-Trybull-Vrancic, none of whom may advance massively, with a Buendia-Pukki-Hernandez (better behaved) in advance. I agree that the wing backs will have to be more circumspect, though I can see Buendia dropping into one of the 4 and it also including Lewis and/or Aarons. 

Overloading the central areas will be even more fundamental, though it will inevitably require even better, more circumspect - and sadly deeper - possession retention in the areas just in front of the Centre backs. They will still split, though Trybull will be much more of an auxiliary Centre Back and the Leitner and Vrancic roles will need to be closer and tigger to him. 

Better defensively, though a longer stretch to reach offensive spaces. Buendia will thus trusted with more space and responsibility deeper, though the Hernandez role - if he is considered the ‘free weapon’ will be a 10ish role (even if he goes in-to-out sometimes) or it will be too high a risk of cheap turnover.

Pukki’s willingness to engage deeply, work hard and create support angles may well see us de-facto operare without a striker filling the traditional 9 spaces and I think this would be a good, disruptive move give our current parameters and likely resources. 

It would be a sensible evolution.

Parma

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

On the defensive side of Norwich’s game I wonder if last season gives more hints about the approach Farke will use next season. 

Norwich were far more defensive last season, and Farke would play Trybull and Tettey and the full backs won’t push as high as they have this season. It lead to Norwich having a record breaking run of clean sheets I seem to remember and criticism from some that Farke was too defensive and negative. Could we see a new defensive midfielder signed to play alongside Trybull to create a more solid centre, with Leitner playing the 10 role ahead of them? 

Farke also experimented with a back 5, but he never seemed that keen on it and reverted back to his preferred 4-2-3-1. 

I do feel that if Norwich use the same approach and tactics next season then they will be on the receiving side of some absolute thumpings. It is of course important to have a balance and not just concentrate on defence but with most Premier League teams, even the ‘rubbish’ ones having some excellent attacking players teams will punish any small slips or weaknesses. 

I'd be interested in seeing if he'd switch back to a back 3- I just feel our best width comes from the full backs and if we restrict them next season we'll suffer.

Having Buendia and Hernandez playing either side of Pukki with Leitner and Trybull holding deeper would be a dangerous set up in my opinion.

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There is a huge gulf between the bottom and top teams in the Premier League. Yes, we will definitely need to play a more defensive system against the top teams. However, our destructive transition from defence to attack from this season will likely take a few of them by surprise and it actually suits our style to play against teams who will bring the game to us. We will, necessarily, see fewer occasions where both fullbacks are operating on the wings and our wide midfielders will be required to spend more time defending, especially against some of the better teams.

On the other hand, there are a fair few teams outside the top 6 who are genuinely no better than us. We will pick up points against them in the same way we beat Leeds without having to sacrifice our attacking style. In a number of ways we are already more suited to the higher technical level of the Premier League than the Championship: we will not be kicked off the park in the way we have been this season, the higher quality pitches will be more conducive to our passing game, and we will be less likely to face teams who sit deep and lump it forwards and hit us on the break.

I don't think it will be a walk in the park. We will struggle at times and we might well be in a relegation fight all season. But I don't think we would benefit from replacing any of our defenders from the current 1st team or radically changing the way we play. I think we are already better than a lot of people are giving us credit for. Remember, we aren't expected to finish with a positive goal difference; no one outside the current top 10 actually will this season.

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49 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'd be interested in seeing if he'd switch back to a back 3- I just feel our best width comes from the full backs and if we restrict them next season we'll suffer.

Having Buendia and Hernandez playing either side of Pukki with Leitner and Trybull holding deeper would be a dangerous set up in my opinion.

I think Norwich will have no option of getting the full backs up the pitch in some games due to having to defend for sustained periods. It has been a noticeable tactic this season for teams to hit long passes into wide areas, behind Lewis and Aarons. I’m pretty sure we will we the back 5 at some point next season but not sure it will be the first choice tactic. 

I wouldn’t want to see Leitner alongside Trybull either (I’m not sure I’d want to see Trybull in the midfield at all in honesty), but I can see two deeper midfielders with a 10 ahead of them. These wouldn’t necessarily be just destroyers, but could be like Dortmund’s current double pivot midfield with Delaney and Witsel. 

Both can defend and break up play, but both can also join the attack. I don’t really think Norwich have a midfielder that could fill those roles at the moment as none of them probably offer that mobility and physicality. 

There are similarities with Farke’s and Favre’s styles and I wonder if this might be a bit of inspiration for Farke next season. 

Will be interesting to see how Farke and Webber want to play it. 

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7 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I think Norwich will have no option of getting the full backs up the pitch in some games due to having to defend for sustained periods. It has been a noticeable tactic this season for teams to hit long passes into wide areas, behind Lewis and Aarons. I’m pretty sure we will we the back 5 at some point next season but not sure it will be the first choice tactic. 

I wouldn’t want to see Leitner alongside Trybull either (I’m not sure I’d want to see Trybull in the midfield at all in honesty), but I can see two deeper midfielders with a 10 ahead of them. These wouldn’t necessarily be just destroyers, but could be like Dortmund’s current double pivot midfield with Delaney and Witsel. 

Both can defend and break up play, but both can also join the attack. I don’t really think Norwich have a midfielder that could fill those roles at the moment as none of them probably offer that mobility and physicality. 

There are similarities with Farke’s and Favre’s styles and I wonder if this might be a bit of inspiration for Farke next season. 

Will be interesting to see how Farke and Webber want to play it. 

I just don't see Leitner having the same influence further up the pitch- for me the most natural '10' we have is probably Buendia.

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Ron,  BYG

I deliberately used ‘using the current personnel for context‘ 

to intend ‘this is the nearest thing we have’. It very much leaves the way open for clever improvements where possible. 

BYG is absolutely right to point out that with higher investment you get multi-faceted players like Witsel, who play as a CDM, tackle strongly, move intelligently into space and can shoot, score and playmake.  I doubt we are shopping in such stores, though we may unearth one or simply accept our limitations and factor them in (much as we already have done). 

I am a big fan of tasking players with roles and duties that they instinctively revert to under pressure in any case - their base tendencies - rather than blue-sky morphing them into shapes and patterns that expose them underneath pressure (particularly as they’ll all be under far more pressure next season, in terms of magnitude, limited opportunities, more server consequences and less margin for error). 

Sometimes being more limited allows a clearer delineation of duties and a tighter compartmentalisation of roles, facilitating a whole greater than the sum of its parts. Something like ‘Hernandez is limited and risky, but I can tactically afford his errors as a wide-drifting 10 if I have a passing-limited, but positionally-disciplined Tettey  (he isn’t) stationed correctly watching for such an eventuality’

With the Witsel’s of his world you need less compromises such as that, though limitation of options can focus minds and make individual roles and responsibilities clearer. I think we have quite a well-balanced squad currently in that context. 

Parma

 

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