The Positive Brexit Thread

[sonyc 5,491]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Brexit was even stupider

Indeed, it was a really stupid idea. As this latest report tells more of a developing story.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-cost-uk-economy-eu-b2098289.html

Already we are seeing high inflation (global prices), high taxation (Covid), energy prices (private ownership, Ukraine) but the killer is no good / positive side that might mitigate in terms of trade / exports. Our trade issues are self inflicted.

Brexit. Brought in by a party that is supposedly for business. Small businesses have been decimated.

On top of this we have an administration that has concentrated on "saving big dog" and not governing. All we get served up in our national politics is a kind of adolescent parliament. Certainly that's what it looks like on TV.

The cabinet is filled with low quality sychophants. Very few competents.

For ten years, there is much evidence that our institutions are crumbling - the health service is feared to collapse in the West Midlands I read (by September) due to under investment, staff shortages, a failing ambulance and A&E service. The situation is replicated across the country.

The police are understaffed. Care services are severely stretched (certainly up north - Leeds and if you'd watched Bradford On Duty last night BBC2... 1st of 5). Libraries are being run by volunteers where we are. Likewise, grass cutting and horticultural services have been cut to the bone. Waste collection services are rationed.

Health inequalities have widened between rich and poorer areas.

All of this in the last decade. And no serious attempt to tackle this, no pragmatic long term solutions - instead under Johnson we get ludicrous sloganising - 2 or 3 or 4 words often. Get Brexit Done, Levelling Up, Coal, Cash and Cars (for Climate Change). All so vacuous.

 

 

[sonyc 5,491]

Story tonight. Now the farming sector is starting to find a voice.

Very bad news for Johnson. We talked about this here two years ago or more. 

Chickens coming home to roost (to be rather journalistic here🙂).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/11/boris-johnson-faces-rural-fury-over-post-brexit-food-strategy?

 

[Herman 9,713]

That's helped the LibDems by a great deal.😀

[Herman 9,713]

On 28/05/2022 at 16:30, Herman said:

If I told you 30 years ago that Sinn Fein would become the sensible, pragmatic party of NI........

 

[Herman 9,713]

An interesting read.

 

[sonyc 5,491]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

An interesting read.

 

See link attached. It tries to evidence the "Uplands" that Davis told us about.

They are up to number 624!  A reference to the art business is number 590. 

 

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/regular-features/the-davis-downside-dossier/

[Herman 9,713]

Carole Cadwalladr won her libel case. 

[MooreMarriot 307]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Carole Cadwalladr won her libel case. 

You've got to laugh :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61782578

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, MooreMarriot said:

You've got to laugh :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61782578

 

What a load of of cadwalladrwallop.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

every aspect of the UK economy is down and the prospect of work for KIngspan of Grenfell fame to rebuild Ukraine at great cost is not going to change it. The Government who will have to live with the Good Friday Agreement, who has signed the NI protocol, is now pitching for another fight with the EU by wanting to rewrite and change it.

Everything they talk about,  everything they want to achieve has no proper policy behind it. 40 new hospitals? when they can't staff today's shambles, more Akro props to hold up Kings Lynn's main hospital, a farce that has been going on for years.

Energy prices are high because our Government has no control over pricing, we pay EU spot market prices for our own gas which is reaping massive profits. we also use fracked cheap US gas and send ti on to Europe, for more profits. Petrol prices are high and despite nobody passing on the chancellors 5 pence reduction, it made even more profits for the same energy companies.

A pint in a Broads pub/Norwich pub is over £4,- and last year we saw some 30 pubs/day ceasing to trade, hospitality is on its knees as is the tourism industry.

Im sure that the brain dead in charge will find somebody to paint this news as great, showing that we are finally standing on our own feet, whilst inflation is making a mockery of wages. Meanwhile bankers and petrol companies still get subsidised by millions, we are giving hundreds of millions away in arms supplies to stoke a war to get at Rusdsia, while foodbanks are now a vital necessity to feed many millions in the UK.

masochistic pleasures demand that voters at the next GE will again have no other choice than the crooks in charge. or spoil their votes en masse.

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

From the Guardian News - 

A 'rocket' up the Tory's from NI. Put it in full as it needs stating.

 

52 out of 90 members of Northern Ireland assembly sign letter rejecting protocol bill 'in strongest possible terms'

A majority of MLAs (members of the legislative assembly) in Northern Ireland have signed an open letter to Boris Johnson saying that they reject “in the strongest possible terms” his “reckless” Northern Ireland protocol bill.

Michelle O’Neill, the Sinn Féin leader in Northern Ireland and first minister elect (assuming power sharing ever resumes) has the lead signature on the letter which has been signed by all 27 Sinn Féin MLAs, as well as the 17 Alliance party MLAs and eight from the SDLP. They account for 52 of the 90 members of the assembly (58%).

Here are their main arguments.

• A majority of MLAs, and a majority of people in Northern Ireland, are opposed to the government bill, the MLAs say. They say:

Our parties collectively represent a majority inside the Northern Ireland Assembly and received a majority of votes cast in the recent assembly election. We reject in the strongest possible terms your government’s reckless new protocol legislation, which flies in the face of the expressed wishes of not just most businesses, but most people in Northern Ireland.

• The protocol is the only option available to protect Northern Ireland from the worst aspects of Brexit, the MLAs say. They say:

The protocol is itself a product of the hard Brexit you personally championed and a withdrawal deal you personally signed. Whilst not ideal, the protocol currently represents the only available protections for Northern Ireland from the worst impacts of that hard Brexit. The protocol also offers clear economic advantages to our region, and the opportunity for unique access to two major markets. The fact that you have removed this advantage from businesses in Great Britain, at a clear economic cost, does not justify doing the same to businesses in Northern Ireland.

• The MLAs says it is “deeply frustrating” that their support for changes to the protocol has been presented by the government as support for its bill. It is not, they say. They say they just want “smooth implementation” of the protocol, and that the EU has shown it would agree to changes to facilite this. (When Liz Truss announced plans for the bill last month, she claimed 78% of people in Northern Ireland wanted the protocol changed. But that figure was arguably misleading because around half of that group only want relatively minor changes, of the kind backed by the Sinn Féin/Alliance/SDLP MLAs - not the kind of change proposed by Truss.)

• The MLAs reject Boris Johnson’s claim that he is acting to protect the Good Friday agreement. They say:

Finally, we strongly reject your continued claim to be protecting the Good Friday agreement as your government works to destabilise our region. To complain the protocol lacks cross-community consent, while ignoring the fact that Brexit itself – let alone hard Brexit - lacks even basic majority consent here, is a grotesque act of political distortion. Your claims to be acting to protect our institutions is as much a fabrication as the Brexit campaign claims you made in 2016.

Here is the full text of the letter.

New - A majority of MLAs in the Northern Ireland Assembly have signed a joint letter to Prime Minister Boris Johnson this afternoon outlining their opposition to the government’s proposed legislation pic.twitter.com/fdVoiTZXrn

— Jessica Elgot (@jessicaelgot) June 13, 2022

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[1902 1,167]

35 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

From the Guardian News - 

A 'rocket' up the Tory's from NI. Put it in full as it needs stating.

 

52 out of 90 members of Northern Ireland assembly sign letter rejecting protocol bill 'in strongest possible terms'

A majority of MLAs (members of the legislative assembly) in Northern Ireland have signed an open letter to Boris Johnson saying that they reject “in the strongest possible terms” his “reckless” Northern Ireland protocol bill.

Michelle O’Neill, the Sinn Féin leader in Northern Ireland and first minister elect (assuming power sharing ever resumes) has the lead signature on the letter which has been signed by all 27 Sinn Féin MLAs, as well as the 17 Alliance party MLAs and eight from the SDLP. They account for 52 of the 90 members of the assembly (58%).

Here are their main arguments.

• A majority of MLAs, and a majority of people in Northern Ireland, are opposed to the government bill, the MLAs say. They say:

Our parties collectively represent a majority inside the Northern Ireland Assembly and received a majority of votes cast in the recent assembly election. We reject in the strongest possible terms your government’s reckless new protocol legislation, which flies in the face of the expressed wishes of not just most businesses, but most people in Northern Ireland.

• The protocol is the only option available to protect Northern Ireland from the worst aspects of Brexit, the MLAs say. They say:

The protocol is itself a product of the hard Brexit you personally championed and a withdrawal deal you personally signed. Whilst not ideal, the protocol currently represents the only available protections for Northern Ireland from the worst impacts of that hard Brexit. The protocol also offers clear economic advantages to our region, and the opportunity for unique access to two major markets. The fact that you have removed this advantage from businesses in Great Britain, at a clear economic cost, does not justify doing the same to businesses in Northern Ireland.

• The MLAs says it is “deeply frustrating” that their support for changes to the protocol has been presented by the government as support for its bill. It is not, they say. They say they just want “smooth implementation” of the protocol, and that the EU has shown it would agree to changes to facilite this. (When Liz Truss announced plans for the bill last month, she claimed 78% of people in Northern Ireland wanted the protocol changed. But that figure was arguably misleading because around half of that group only want relatively minor changes, of the kind backed by the Sinn Féin/Alliance/SDLP MLAs - not the kind of change proposed by Truss.)

• The MLAs reject Boris Johnson’s claim that he is acting to protect the Good Friday agreement. They say:

Finally, we strongly reject your continued claim to be protecting the Good Friday agreement as your government works to destabilise our region. To complain the protocol lacks cross-community consent, while ignoring the fact that Brexit itself – let alone hard Brexit - lacks even basic majority consent here, is a grotesque act of political distortion. Your claims to be acting to protect our institutions is as much a fabrication as the Brexit campaign claims you made in 2016.

Here is the full text of the letter.

New - A majority of MLAs in the Northern Ireland Assembly have signed a joint letter to Prime Minister Boris Johnson this afternoon outlining their opposition to the government’s proposed legislation pic.twitter.com/fdVoiTZXrn

— Jessica Elgot (@jessicaelgot) June 13, 2022

 

The idea that the Tory party cares about the democratic will of the Northern Irish people is borderline ridiculous. You would have to be blind to their policy for the last 6 years to think it matters a jot to them.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

51 minutes ago, 1902 said:

The idea that the Tory party cares about the democratic will of the Northern Irish people is borderline ridiculous. You would have to be blind to their policy for the last 6 years to think it matters a jot to them.

If it was up to me, I'd make implementation of the NI protocol a devolved matter and let Northern Ireland negotiate with the republic and EU directly, up to and including management of the border in the Irish Sea. 

[Herman 9,713]

7 hours ago, sonyc said:

See link attached. It tries to evidence the "Uplands" that Davis told us about.

They are up to number 624!  A reference to the art business is number 590. 

 

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/regular-features/the-davis-downside-dossier/

😀 Blimey, they really are keeping track of everything.

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

2 hours ago, 1902 said:

The idea that the Tory party cares about the democratic will of the Northern Irish people is borderline ridiculous. You would have to be blind to their policy for the last 6 years to think it matters a jot to them.

A long time ago I came to the inescapable conclusion that this 'Johnson party' governs first for the benefit of Johnson himself, then for the 'Tory' party and their floozies and finally for the benefit of the country (little England) as a very distant third if at all. Scotland, Wales and NI - where/what are they ?

Johnson himself will say or do anything to keep himself in power as today's NI paper clearly shows. To h e l l with the long term consequences of their actions - they can blame somebody else by then.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[sonyc 5,491]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

😀 Blimey, they really are keeping track of everything.

Yes it is a labour of love for the paper😅 624 things that have got worse and 19 things arguably better.

This thread is now redundant😄... because YorkshireBylines has the whole dossier sorted. I was impressed hence the share.

It's good to see the whole charade being held to account though. Perhaps some of those Brexiters here can send them their positive stories (they do ask that you send in a link to a reputable source however). 

I was thinking that a new thread called Broken UK might be in order. Not sure if you read John Harris' piece yesterday? A very, very sad read actually. One paragraph copied at the bottom.

He writes after a weekend trip away and his observations and reflections. It is a balanced piece too, simply outlining what many people see with their own eyes in towns. He attacks Starmer too.... though his observations are his summary of more than a decade of disastrous Tory administrations. Austerity then Brexit, underfunding of basic fundamental services, Covid and Johnson. He doesn't blame everything either on Brexit but it is a theme that sits uncomfortably underneath. 

What really shouts out loud though in his vignettes are the lives of us real people, the hassles with daily life. The things we just put up with but when you sit and think hard you realise things used to be just normal and better.

It really feels as if institutions are failing and we are in a period of decline. Brexit is one sad symbol of the greater malaise that this country is experiencing. 

Anyway, that clip is below... many times I've watched a poor woman just rush round at self service areas at the supermarket check out. All to try and force people not to use the main checkouts (and when you ask you're told they are short staffed). The low wage economy really needs fixing. The current policies being rolled out are far too insufficient and lack detail or enough investment. Same for health policies. Brexit is an amplifier for the worse. 

That paragraph is very applicable not only to the biggest city near me or the biggest town but in many villages too.

On a positive note we could still be part of the SM and customs union and it would not even be a reversal of Brexit but an accommodation. It would solve the Irish problem and the pain of SMEs. Yet we went for the hardest ever split and Johnson even now wants to renege on his own deal.

Sad times. Just have to retain hope that enough Brexit and Tory voters start to think differently.

 

In any medium-sized British town, the spectacle will be much the same: empty retail units, charity shops, chain stores where a bare minimum of staff endlessly coach people in the use of self-service checkouts, neglected public spaces, and a latent anxiety focused on schools and hospitals. To state the blindingly obvious, this is not what people were promised by their politicians, nor what they expected to face as they left behind the miseries of the pandemic.

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by sonyc

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

10 hours ago, Herman said:

Carole Cadwalladr won her libel case. 

She successfully mounted a public interest defence to the libel case against her. After initially making a truth defence regarding her allegations against Banks, she later submitted that her statement was untrue but made a public interest argument for allowing public political discussion of high importance. Part of the judgement was that her allegation was unsubstantiated and caused harm to Banks' reputation, but freedom of expression in journalism and political discourse was deemed more important. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[1902 1,167]

4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If it was up to me, I'd make implementation of the NI protocol a devolved matter and let Northern Ireland negotiate with the republic and EU directly, up to and including management of the border in the Irish Sea. 

It's inevitable that it's not devolved just because it essentially adds a third party to already complex bilateral negotiations.

Negotiations which can't actually not involve the UK government as it effects too much of GBs policy.

Rightly or wrongly, neither the Irish government and the EU or the British government would want that.

It also doesn't help that Stormont is a bit of a basket case and that, as much as none of us want that, any decision about sovereignty has the potential to unleash all manner of trouble if one community views it's self as the loser.

Tbh, the hard unionists have screwed up royally in the long run over this. In terms of their long run objectives of keeping NI in the Union, this has opened up a can of worms which the single market and the peace process had largely kept a lid on.

Edited June 13, 2022 by 1902

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I cannot see how the protocol can be devolved. The agreement went through Parliament. It concerned all of Britain.

The only solution is for NI to be united with the South.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

6 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I cannot see how the protocol can be devolved. The agreement went through Parliament. It concerned all of Britain.

The only solution is for NI to be united with the South.

It's not the protocol that would be devolved. Stormont would be empowerd to manage and implement the Irish Sea border and to negotiate it directly with the EU. There's nothing to prevent the UK doing it and seeing as Northern Ireland has been subject to a negotiation over its head, and the protocol clearly isn't fit for purpose as a means to maintain peace, I think it would be a bit of a headache for the EU to argue against it.

Edited June 13, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's not the protocol that would be devolved. Stormont would be empowerd to manage and implement the Irish Sea border and to negotiate it directly with the EU. There's nothing to prevent the UK doing it and seeing as Northern Ireland has been subject to a negotiation over its head, and the protocol clearly isn't fit for purpose as a means to maintain peace, I think it would be a bit of a headache for the EU to argue against it.

But surely the EU do not have to argue anything. What happened to oven ready?

[1902 1,167]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's not the protocol that would be devolved. Stormont would be empowerd to manage and implement the Irish Sea border and to negotiate it directly with the EU. There's nothing to prevent the UK doing it and seeing as Northern Ireland has been subject to a negotiation over its head, and the protocol clearly isn't fit for purpose as a means to maintain peace, I think it would be a bit of a headache for the EU to argue against it.

The protocol wasn't so much the issue, it was that a minority of NIs populations refused to accept any other solution apart from their desired outcome.

The 'Ulster says No' mentality is still strong in some quarters and it's gradually backfiring.

Edited June 13, 2022 by 1902

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

Just now, 1902 said:

The protocol wasn't so much the issue, it was that a minority of NIs populations refused to accept any other solution apart from their desired outcome.

The 'Ulster says No' mentality is still strong in some quarters and it's gradually backfiring.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/new-border-poll-survey-reveals-53-of-people-in-ni-want-to-stay-in-the-uk-40531085.html

According to this, support for a united ireland was at 30% in June 2021, with 53% saying they'd vote to remain in the UK. Admittedly, this is a year old, but I find it hard to believe it has moved to anything like unanimous support for reunification within the last year. 

[1902 1,167]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/new-border-poll-survey-reveals-53-of-people-in-ni-want-to-stay-in-the-uk-40531085.html

According to this, support for a united ireland was at 30% in June 2021, with 53% saying they'd vote to remain in the UK. Admittedly, this is a year old, but I find it hard to believe it has moved to anything like unanimous support for reunification within the last year. 

Polls over hypothetical votes about identity are horrendously and notoriously unreliable. Brexit and Scottish indy votes being obvious cases in point.

Also, there's a huge stock of softly pro-union or mildly republican who don't want the DUP to decide policy over the customs border. Combined with commited Republicans they make up the majority of the NI population.

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

5 minutes ago, 1902 said:

The protocol wasn't so much the issue, it was that a minority of NIs populations refused to accept any other solution apart from their desired outcome.

The 'Ulster says No' mentality is still strong in some quarters and it's gradually backfiring.

Exactly this.

Johnson negotiated a daft agreement either in ignorance or bad faith and the DUP won't in reality accept any compromise with an Irish sea border. 

I'm not sure there is way out to square this circle short of the whole UK staying in the SM or CU but that was as obvious in 2016 as it is now.

Clearly the Brexiteers and the DUP have made some idiotic howlers. One can only hope that Johnson and his ilk will be long gone and more sensible politicians in post before the EU will be forced to react and impose punitive tarrifs on some choice iconic UK industries.

[Herman 9,713]

Truths about the NIP. It is working, it's not perfect but it is bringing stability and more prosperity to NI than any other area of the UK, after London. The DUP don't like it because of this. It shows what cooperation can actually achieve rather than sectarian garbage. As an Irishman said on radio "they'd rather eat grass" than work with their neighbours. The brexit government don't like it because it highlights to the rest of the UK how awful brexit actually is. They'd rather we'd all be impoverished than admit they sold the country a pup.

We need to find a way to get rid of these people before their beliefs bring the whole of the UK crashing down around us.

[A Load of Squit 5,128]

10 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's not the protocol that would be devolved. Stormont would be empowerd to manage and implement the Irish Sea border and to negotiate it directly with the EU. There's nothing to prevent the UK doing it and seeing as Northern Ireland has been subject to a negotiation over its head, and the protocol clearly isn't fit for purpose as a means to maintain peace, I think it would be a bit of a headache for the EU to argue against it.

The means to maintain peace is in the GFA, the NI Protocol has to ensure that the GFA  is adhered to.

All signatories to the GFA have a duty to ensure that it is maintained, that includes the British Government.

This pathetic attempt to undermine the current set up will not be seen as a wise decision in the US & the EU,  

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

11 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Johnson negotiated a daft agreement either in ignorance or bad faith and the DUP won't in reality accept any compromise with an Irish sea border. 

I'm not sure there is way out to square this circle short of the whole UK staying in the SM or CU but that was as obvious in 2016 as it is now.

Clearly the Brexiteers and the DUP have made some idiotic howlers. One can only hope that Johnson and his ilk will be long gone and more sensible politicians in post before the EU will be forced to react and impose punitive tarrifs on some choice iconic UK industries.

Spot on, although I think you are being unnecessarily kind in suggesting it was in 'ignorance or bad faith' as, thick as Johnson is, he simply cannot have been ignorant of the implications of his agreement - he was certainly told often enough and by plenty of different people.

I think it became crystal clear quite quickly after the deal was done that Johnson had acted in bad faith, both towards the EU and the DUP. He lied outright to the DUP about there being no need for a border in the Irish Sea even though it was crystal clear to anyone that could read that there would be, so I've little sympathy for them - they are primarily victims of their own stupidity (and not just on this occasion!).

If I remember correctly, Cummings has also subsequently confirmed that the deal was done in bad faith - not that I would automatically accept what he says at face value. But on this and several other occasions when he and Johnson have provided diametrically opposing versions of events they were both involved in, it is the ****'s version that chimes much better with the publically available facts and the statements of other people who were also present.

 

[horsefly 4,287]

Having purposely decided to push for the worst possible Brexit deal (to get Brexit done), the government made the Northern Ireland protocol a necessity. Now the government wants to compound the Brexit damage they willing inflicted on the UK, breaking international law by discarding the NIP. The ONLY legal ground for breaching our agreement with the EU would be to demonstrate that the country faced "imminent grievous peril" by abiding by it. There's not a chance in hell that such a case could be made, which is precisely why the government instructed its legal advisors not to comment on the legality of its proposals. So, in order to appease the DUP lunatics the government insists on precipitating a trade war with the EU, and trashing our reputation as a law-abiding nation with every country we might wish to form a trade agreement. I suppose if you elect an incompetent, lying,  law-breaking fraud as your leader, you should expect an incompetent, lying, law-breaking government as a result.

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

Rwanda - I wonder if they can pre-book cheap return flights?