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The Positive Brexit Thread

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11 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

So you’re happy for these people to be exploited, rather than fix the underlying problems in the haulage? It’s ok for them to be paid pi$$ poor wages and live in relative poverty as long as you’re not mildly inconvenienced? 

I will try one more time, why did Farage and Johnson say these jobs are for British workers and the ‘ British workers ‘ will be queueing up for these jobs ?. It was lie as was the £350 million for the NHS, we have now had to raise NI by 1.25 % just to cover the booster jab programme.

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1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

That would be the same policies that almost caused the country to go bankrupt in the 70’s, that almost every country has since abandoned? I’d rather not go back to government setting the rates for each industry personally as I don’t believe it’s a good way to structure an economy.

More power for trade unions, more worker representatives on boards and an end to freedom of movement laws that distorted the effects of supply and demand are a much better long term solution in my eyes

Brexit is doing a good job returning us to the 70s, yet you're in favour of that. Anyway, let's take a look at those two policies I suggested that you claim are the "same policies that almost caused the country to go bankrupt in the 70s":

Wages Councils

Seems you have not quite remembered what wages councils were and how they functioned. Firstly, they established pay rates in a small number of specific industries and DID NOT structure the economy. Secondly, they DID NOT involve the government setting pay rates in specific industries; the clue is in the name "councils" (FYI " In order to constitute a meeting of a wages council there shall be present at least one of the members chosen by the Secretary of State as being independent persons (hereinafter referred to as the "Independent Members") and at least one third of the whole number of the persons appointed by nominated employers' associations or trade unions or, where appropriate, by the Secretary of State as representing employers and workers respectively " https://vlex.co.uk/vid/wages-councils-meetings-and-812466941). Thirdly, the idea that wages councils were a cause of the "country to almost go bankrupt in the 70s" is pure nonsense as you well know, or would you like to provide us with evidence from an economist supporting this claim? (Thought not!)

Minimum Wage

There was NO minimum wage in the 70s so I'm very interested to hear your explanation of how this non-existent policy almost caused the country to go bankrupt.

Edited by horsefly

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On 24/09/2021 at 20:50, Herman said:

Project fear. What is the Fail up to?

 

Effin’ typical of our scum media. They just love making us worry, cause stress and try to send us to an early grave.

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14 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Fen Canary.

 You are wasted on this thread.

Not sure how you know but I reckon you're definitely right that he's "wasted"

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3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Not sure how you know but I reckon you're definitely right that he's "wasted"

Point proven.

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9 minutes ago, KernowCanary said:

Effin’ typical of our scum media. They just love making us worry, cause stress and try to send us to an early grave.

Yet Johnson is a f****** liar and is not scum, you can’t have it both ways.

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7 hours ago, sonyc said:

Petrol prices here have risen (and have across the country) over the past few weeks. Yesterday the local garage was deserted with no fuel whatsoever. Have about a gallon left. So, now it's the local shop on foot. The local (a Coop) this morning was short on fresh food with lots of shelves empty (not seen that since the early days of the pandemic and panic buying).

After two years of going nowhere during the pandemic we decided we would have a week break (in the UK) but that is now under review unless fuel is available this week. Expecting to cancel everything.

Mother in law's gas DD has gone from £40pm to £114. And that is the cheapest.

I guess these are first world problems and we ought to think about countries where food is scarce or the situation of people who cannot afford a proper weekly shop. But still, it is concerning. Reading today about the temporary relaxations on visas it seems clear it won't solve the logistics problem.

Interesting to read yesterday the main European newspaper headlines. All about Brexit and quite humiliating really. Johnson is a laughing stock abroad. Yet here he remains popular looking at the polls. People may still vote for him and his party. 

Petrol is a fossil fuel, don't forget. It is what you lefties and climate changers voted for, remember? This is yet another glimpse of the future that awaits us unless we get back to sane living. In the future every time the wind drops we'll all be stranded without power. Some of us who remembers Ted Heath's 3 day week will be looking forward to 7 day weeks of power shortages and empty supermarkets, if we live long enough.  

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48 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Brexit is doing a good job returning us to the 70s, yet you're in favour of that. Anyway, let's take a look at those two policies I suggested that you claim are the "same policies that almost caused the country to go bankrupt in the 70s":

Wages Councils

Seems you have not quite remembered what wages councils were and how they functioned. Firstly, they established pay rates in a small number of specific industries and DID NOT structure the economy. Secondly, they DID NOT involve the government setting pay rates in specific industries; the clue is in the name "councils" (FYI " In order to constitute a meeting of a wages council there shall be present at least one of the members chosen by the Secretary of State as being independent persons (hereinafter referred to as the "Independent Members") and at least one third of the whole number of the persons appointed by nominated employers' associations or trade unions or, where appropriate, by the Secretary of State as representing employers and workers respectively " https://vlex.co.uk/vid/wages-councils-meetings-and-812466941). Thirdly, the idea that wages councils were a cause of the "country to almost go bankrupt in the 70s" is pure nonsense as you well know, or would you like to provide us with evidence from an economist supporting this claim? (Thought not!)

Minimum Wage

There was NO minimum wage in the 70s so I'm very interested to hear your explanation of how this non-existent policy almost caused the country to go bankrupt.

I don’t believe I mentioned the minimum wage so that point is a non starter.

Secondly no I’m not in favour of wage councils. The minimum wage is needed to prevent exploitation but above that I believe the economy should function as supply and demand except in industries where monopolies form such as utilities. I don’t believe wage rates should be set externally, whether by government or council, and I don’t believe industry should be allowed to import vast amounts of workers whenever there is a shortage in order to prevent wages climbing.

You always try to argue on technicalities rather than the overarching point don’t you Horsey?

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47 minutes ago, KernowCanary said:

Effin’ typical of our scum media. They just love making us worry, cause stress and try to send us to an early grave.

But this time they can't blame the Unions or a Labour Government.

Will they dare blame themselves for telling everyone to vote for liars? To cancel and leave a system that worked just so we can have blue passports?

Thatcher had her Falklands to hide her failings. This cnut has had his pandemic (which he also lied through his teeth about) but is about to disappear once again while the siht hits the fan.

I assume he swats up on metaphors while he goes into hiding.

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Just now, Fen Canary said:

I don’t believe I mentioned the minimum wage so that point is a non starter.

I only mentioned two policies; wages councils, and the minimum wage. Your exact words in response were:

"That would be the same policies that almost caused the country to go bankrupt in the 70’s, that almost every country has since abandoned?"

So yes you certainly did refer to the minimum wage, or is it that you have no grasp of the standard English use of the plural?

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

I will try one more time, why did Farage and Johnson say these jobs are for British workers and the ‘ British workers ‘ will be queueing up for these jobs ?. It was lie as was the £350 million for the NHS, we have now had to raise NI by 1.25 % just to cover the booster jab programme.

If the money is right there’s no reason they can’t employ British workers. Would you work the long hours in haulage for the pay on offer though? I know I wouldn’t personally yet you seem happy to exploit those from poor nations who will

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7 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I only mentioned two policies; wages councils, and the minimum wage. Your exact words in response were:

"That would be the same policies that almost caused the country to go bankrupt in the 70’s, that almost every country has since abandoned?"

So yes you certainly did refer to the minimum wage, or is it that you have no grasp of the standard English use of the plural?

Find where I wrote the words minimum wage in my comment and I’ll reply. You can’t because I didn’t, and the reason I didn’t us because I believe the minimum wage is vital to prevent exploitation. Debate the points I made, rather than the ones you want to 

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9 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I don’t believe I mentioned the minimum wage so that point is a non starter.

Secondly no I’m not in favour of wage councils. The minimum wage is needed to prevent exploitation but above that I believe the economy should function as supply and demand except in industries where monopolies form such as utilities. I don’t believe wage rates should be set externally, whether by government or council, and I don’t believe industry should be allowed to import vast amounts of workers whenever there is a shortage in order to prevent wages climbing.

You always try to argue on technicalities rather than the overarching point don’t you Horsey?

You got things totally wrong in your previous post so resort yet again to an attempt to distract from that fact and not answer the criticisms I made. Never mind, that's exactly what I expect from you. However, I would have thought even you might notice the blatant contradiction that lies at the heart of your very limited view of how the economy works, or should work. On the one hand you support the old-fashioned free-marketeer's view that the economy should rely upon the mechanism of supply and demand, and then without the slightest intention to be ironic you tell us the government should intervene to slap all sorts of prohibitive conditions (" I don’t believe wage rates should be set externally, whether by government or council,") on the employment of foreign workers coming to the country on visas. Dear oh dear! What a mess!

 

 

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2 hours ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

I understand your point, but the shortage of labour has been an issue for many years. We had a shortage of HGV drivers even before the vote 

We need to have our industries functioning properly, we can't allow disruption of the scale we have seen this summer to prevail. If the haulage industry is unable to supply goods around the country,  we can't simply point the finger at them and say its their fault for employing foreigners in the past and not doing enough training. We need that industry to function 

 

Yes, you are quite right that the problem should have been fixed long ago, and not just in the hauliage business. I guess having this large pool of cheap workers available meant that no one was prepared to initiate a plan. Added, that lobby groups, and RHA is a lobby group, wanted to keep the current system and fought against Brexit for the five year period after the referendum.  So to put a plan in place for attracting new drivers would have run counter to their lobbying. Indeed, the finger is being pointed at the RHA as one of the suspects in creating the fuel shortage panic in order to get those cheap EU drivers back which will help their members increase profitability. 

Some blame also has to go to the government, too. They must have game planned a post-Brexit world and foreseen what a withdrawal of cheap EU labour would mean. Though Covid would have made any predictions much worse in outcome, as we are seeing.  

If nobody takes the initiative then the market will eventually sort it out but there will inevitably be unwelcome swings if purely left to the market, so it is better if the government starts letting us know what its post- Brexit, post-Covid strategy is. 

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5 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Find where I wrote the words minimum wage in my comment and I’ll reply. You can’t because I didn’t, and the reason I didn’t us because I believe the minimum wage is vital to prevent exploitation. Debate the points I made, rather than the ones you want to 

FFS! Do you seriously not understand how English language works? It's really quite simple; I mentioned only two policies in my post (wages councils, and the minimum wage), if you then reply that those "policies" (note your use of the plural) brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy, then by the laws of grammar you are referring to BOTH the policies mentioned. How can you fail to understand this?

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6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

You got things totally wrong in your previous post so resort yet again to an attempt to distract from that fact and not answer the criticisms I made. Never mind, that's exactly what I expect from you. However, I would have thought even you might notice the blatant contradiction that lies at the heart of your very limited view of how the economy works, or should work. On the one hand you support the old-fashioned free-marketeer's view that the economy should rely upon the mechanism of supply and demand, and then without the slightest intention to be ironic you tell us the government should intervene to slap all sorts of prohibitive conditions (" I don’t believe wage rates should be set externally, whether by government or council,") on the employment of foreign workers coming to the country on visas. Dear oh dear! What a mess!

 

 

Why is that contradictory? I don’t believe the government/wage councils should be dictating wages as a whole, but I also don’t believe industry should be allowed to import vast numbers of workers to tilt the balance on their favour and keep wage costs down. If imports are needed then the terms of conditions in the work visa should ensure that industry pays a premium on wages for the privilege to ensure they aren’t undercutting the local workforce.

It’s definitely protectionist but certainly not contradictory as you claim 

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3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

FFS! Do you seriously not understand how English language works? It's really quite simple; I mentioned only two policies in my post (wages councils, and the minimum wage), if you then reply that those "policies" (note your use of the plural) brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy, then by the laws of grammar you are referring to BOTH the policies mentioned. How can you fail to understand this?

You’re an idiot. You’re arguing over a point I clearly haven’t made 

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Just now, Fen Canary said:

You’re an idiot. You’re arguing over a point I clearly haven’t made 

You really are a moron if you don't understand how plurals work in the English language. This is primary school level knowledge. Jesus Christ! no wonder you make so little sense.

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1 minute ago, Van wink said:

Strong whiff of Bill wafting over these exchanges 

Tiny Winkie back with his usual profound contribution. Take a look you buffoon, it was FC who started the abuse, and as is my policy I respond in kind to such behaviour. You should know that all too well since it is always you who starts off with an insult.

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I see the govt. are considering drafting in the army next week to deliver fuel. Operation Escalin.  I guess they'll undercutting the local workers too.

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1 minute ago, horsefly said:

Tiny Winkie back with his usual profound contribution. Take a look you buffoon, it was FC who started the abuse, and as is my policy I respond in kind to such behaviour. You should know that all too well since it is always you who starts off with an insult.

Have you considered psychiatric help?

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Interesting comments from the EU side about how they are trying to tackle driver shortages there. Most of the complaints I've seen from UK drivers are about the working conditions : the lack of facilities, having to sleep overnight in a layby etc, rather than the £30k+ a year average salary, and that the facilities on the continent were already far superior.

https://inews.co.uk/news/hgv-shortage-eu-drivers-snub-boris-johnsons-uk-petrol-crisis-brexit-visa-offer-1217320

“There are driver shortages right across Europe as well, but the EU has committed to improving driver facilities and haulage companies are committed to improving pay and conditions. Until the UK offers the same pay and working conditions as drivers have in the EU then many will stay away.”

Earlier this week, Brussels committed to a financial package to building new truck parking areas with improved facilities across the EU. 

Last year, the EU also introduced new rules on road transport to end the distortion of competition in the sector while providing better working conditions for drivers.

The pay disparity between drivers from western and eastern Europe has also been levelling out since Covid and the logistics sector has face a huge rise in demand.

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40 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

If the money is right there’s no reason they can’t employ British workers. Would you work the long hours in haulage for the pay on offer though? I know I wouldn’t personally yet you seem happy to exploit those from poor nations who will

But that’s not what they said, I remember because I voted for it. They said these jobs are to be for the British, not Europeans and the British would be queueing up, however you are now saying nobody wanted those jobs as they were low paid so basically they lied. Even if I still agreed with the way I voted what point was there as Europeans are now being brought in to do the jobs, so I don’t get the point why was there a vote for them not to do it ?

If you or your children were not prepared to do the jobs, why did we vote to change the status quo, I understood people like yourself were desperate for these jobs so I understood I was helping people, now you say you never wanted the jobs, I was conned.

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17 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Have you considered psychiatric help?

Just go back to watching the predominately British team lose at the golf, there's a good chap. 😀

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21 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I see the govt. are considering drafting in the army next week to deliver fuel. Operation Escalin.  I guess they'll undercutting the local workers too.

Why, there isn’t a problem, is there ?

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1 minute ago, A Load of Squit said:

Just go back to watching the predominately British team lose at the golf, there's a good chap. 😀

What an appropriate username you have.

 

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