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The Positive Brexit Thread

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

I have significantly cut down my posting on this thread, but I allow myself another bash every time Ricardo points out how Remainers are virtually the only ones who post now and then only do so to bemoan Brexit rather than offer a solution...🤓

Yes, you and others, including Remainers, have said that, and it sounds very sensible and British. Making do, making the best of it, 'Very well, alone.' All very plucky and Blitz spirit. But there is a fundamental problem.

Which is (and I take this argument as read by now, not least because it has been proved by actions to be true) that the Leave vote was almost exclusively for an extreme Hard Brexit. No freedom of movement and no more EU rules and regulations. And all of the problems that have, entirely predictably, arisen stem from that straitjacket imposed by that Hard Brexit.

Which by definition at best can only be very slightly be improved and certainly cannot be turned into something even remotely good. It is bound to significantly damage the economy of the UK (or what ends up being left of it) in the short-, medium- and long-term.

There is no best to be made of it. The only way to achieve that would be to ignore what the majority voted for and in effect overturn the result by going back to EU rules and regulations and at least some form of freedom of movement. Certainly into a customs' union, and at least a fudge on FoM. Chances of that happening any time soon? Quite...

For clarity's sake my point was the debate was pointless and the public are bored of it. That it is not to say that Brexit has been anything other than a catastrophic failure, whatever criteria is used. Suez marked the end of the UK as a world power, although in fact it was only making plain what already in fact the case. Brexit and Afghanistan marks the UK's retreat from the position of a major second order power. Currently we can only accept this until such time as an alternative arrangements can gain support and that will only be possible after further national decline. Only at that point can @PurpleCanary and @Yellow Fever's solutions be implemented. In truth there is no alternative, that is what making the best of it means to me.

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3 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

There is no best to be made of it. The only way to achieve that would be to ignore what the majority voted for and in effect overturn the result by going back to EU rules and regulations and at least some form of freedom of movement. Certainly into a customs' union, and at least a fudge on FoM. Chances of that happening any time soon? Quite...

My comment about the sadness @BigFish and @PurpleCanary is that indeed there is nothing to make the best of. I don't even understand that concept really where Brexit is concerned. No choice - but to accept. It is choiceless though.

When things in life go wrong (a member of the family gets cancer, you are made redundant etc etc....real life... you can try and do practical things, be supportive etc... But you have some locus of control, some self- determination. This doesn't exist politically - except through the ballot box.

I do feel anger, it must be conceded (not a good thing, not very Buddhist!) ...at people who voted for Brexit and yet now seem to not care about the consequences. The vote happened and that was all that mattered! 

Making the best of it feels a bit patronising even though I don't think it's meant that way. If it means toleration and acceptance then that is where I'm at...resigned to it. Brexit just isn't something that has a 'best'.

Yet...I'm not about to allow complete acquiescence over it. Something that is very important has to be fought for, argued about.

I've lost friendships over it (my choice I must add). It's about a person's values. 

Yet, like all things unfair in life (and there are a lot) you have to accept, move on psychologically. I'm becoming more and more convinced that Brexiters will not reflect much. One exception is @Well b back who has posted admirably about feeling conned (hope I have interpreted that correctly WBB). Huge respect for that. It's a big person who is able to re-evaluate their actions - and we may not ever share the same politics. But that's fine. 

Thankfully the Pinkun feels like a mainly liberal and thoughtful, reflective forum. Yes there are a few hard liners here, some firmly to the right but in a very small minority. Others feel that the non football forum is a place for nutters but I would disagree. Politics is arguably more important than football (that is a complete understatement of course). A football team goes up and down, wins and loses. Brexit is just one continuous loss. 

 

 

Edit. Ps. Really sorry for the length of my post. I tend to think and feel as I write and it ends up long. I need to be more tabloid.

 

Edited by sonyc
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3 hours ago, sonyc said:

My comment about the sadness @BigFish and @PurpleCanary is that indeed there is nothing to make the best of. I don't even understand that concept really where Brexit is concerned. No choice - but to accept. It is choiceless though.

When things in life go wrong (a member of the family gets cancer, you are made redundant etc etc....real life... you can try and do practical things, be supportive etc... But you have some locus of control, some self- determination. This doesn't exist politically - except through the ballot box.

I do feel anger, it must be conceded (not a good thing, not very Buddhist!) ...at people who voted for Brexit and yet now seem to not care about the consequences. The vote happened and that was all that mattered! 

Making the best of it feels a bit patronising even though I don't think it's meant that way. If it means toleration and acceptance then that is where I'm at...resigned to it. Brexit just isn't something that has a 'best'.

Yet...I'm not about to allow complete acquiescence over it. Something that is very important has to be fought for, argued about.

I've lost friendships over it (my choice I must add). It's about a person's values. 

Yet, like all things unfair in life (and there are a lot) you have to accept, move on psychologically. I'm becoming more and more convinced that Brexiters will not reflect much. One exception is @Well b back who has posted admirably about feeling conned (hope I have interpreted that correctly WBB). Huge respect for that. It's a big person who is able to re-evaluate their actions - and we may not ever share the same politics. But that's fine. 

Thankfully the Pinkun feels like a mainly liberal and thoughtful, reflective forum. Yes there are a few hard liners here, some firmly to the right but in a very small minority. Others feel that the non football forum is a place for nutters but I would disagree. Politics is arguably more important than football (that is a complete understatement of course). A football team goes up and down, wins and loses. Brexit is just one continuous loss. 

 

 

Edit. Ps. Really sorry for the length of my post. I tend to think and feel as I write and it ends up long. I need to be more tabloid.

 

Why would you lose friends over a difference of opinion over a supranational organisation? If you’re willing to give up a friendship over something so trivial then I’d imagine you’re going to live an extremely sheltered life.

Secondly as a Brexit voter, what is it exactly that you want me to do? The only power myself and the other millions that chose to Leave is my vote, I have no power at all over the implementation. You’re correct that I believe the vote happened and that’s all that matters, as the only thing I can do afterwards is vote out the government in a subsequent general election if they don’t follow through on their promises.

I don’t believe Brexit has been implemented perfectly, the situation in NI is a shambles for one, but by and large I’m happy with the outcome. EU immigration now has to abide by the same rules as the rest of the world, the UK is free to strike trade deals with whoever it chooses, no longer stuck inside the customs Union, we’re no longer contributing towards the EU budget etc.

Finally, how has your day to day life changed since we left this year? What has Brexit actually altered? I’ve noticed more people in the building industry moving companies for improved wages, although this is purely anecdotal and I’m unsure if that’s the case nationally, and from what I’ve read in the news hospitality and haulage workers are seeing an increase in their wages, but that’s about it. For most their day to day will be unchanged 

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12 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

We simply don't know do we.

And that is 75% of why I voted remain. Why would I vote for something that had no way of telling me what my future was?

If you’re struggling then you may feel you’ve got nothing to lose by voting for a change, which may explain why the working class were generally much more pro leave than the more comfortable middle classes. I understand this is a generalisation but there is truth in it. If you’re stuck working in an industry which has large numbers of migrants on low wages, where your wages have been stagnant for years and generally struggling financially, why wouldn’t you vote to change the situation potentially in your favour?

By the same token if you’re in a job largely unaffected by the influx from Eastern Europe, living a comfortable life why would you risk voting for something that might destabilise that?

In my opinion people have made Brexit much more complicated than it was in reality. People’s opinions are shaped by their circumstances by and large, it just so happened more people felt being in the EU wasn’t beneficial to them personally when the vote was taken 

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4 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Why would you lose friends over a difference of opinion over a supranational organisation? If you’re willing to give up a friendship over something so trivial then I’d imagine you’re going to live an extremely sheltered life.

Trivial?

Quote

Food and drink exports from the UK have plummeted due to a sharp drop in trade with the EU after Brexit, according to fresh research published today.

Data from the Food and Drink Federation shows overall UK exports of food and drink slid £2bn in the first half of this year, primarily the result of a more than a quarter contraction of sales to the EU compared to the first six months of 2019.

Trivial?

Quote

Farmers across the UK are in panic mode as the busiest season of the year is about to start but they are faced with a shortage of hundreds of thousands of European workers.

In fact, there is such a “massive whole” in the number of available fruit and vegetable pickers that it is putting farmers across the country on the brink.

Trivial?

Quote

GPs are “seriously concerned” about being able to take enough blood samples because of Brexit supply problems.

Trivial?

Quote

Data published this week by the Confederation for British Industry shows retailers recorded their lowest levels of stock since records began.

Trivial?

Quote

The UK’s referendum vote to leave the European Union (EU) was followed by an increase in race and religious hate crime of 15-25% in England and Wales.

Trivial?

Quote

Far from bringing the U.K. together, Brexit has frayed the bonds between the different parts of the United Kingdom.

It has increased support for independence in Scotland, which voted in 2016 to remain in the EU but had to leave the bloc when the rest of the U.K did. It also has destabilized Northern Ireland, which borders EU member Ireland, by imposing new trade barriers between it and the rest of the U.K. that have angered Northern Ireland's pro-British unionist community.

--

You can keep lying to yourself all you like - but the facts are that you voted for something that has helped drive a wedge through the nation, caused untold economic damage, and utterly soured our relationship with our biggest market and most strategically important allies. It was an act of huge self-harm that you helped enable. 

Perhaps one day you'll come to terms with that.

Edited by kirku
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5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Why would you lose friends over a difference of opinion over a supranational organisation? If you’re willing to give up a friendship over something so trivial then I’d imagine you’re going to live an extremely sheltered life

It's a giving up of effort with two people in my case not a falling out. Been the same with four others with the same two. Fixed mindsets are always a problem for me....the ability to actually  be curious. Conversations generally are closed off on virtually all (actually all) subjects! What is the real value of such friendship? Not bothered how someone votes (though I could never be married to someone very illiberal). I've a quiet life anyway. Only in the last year and a half have I even ventured into social media to actually give an opinion. Even now i ask myself if I should - Norwich City things or not. 

5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Secondly as a Brexit voter, what is it exactly that you want me to do?

Nothing whatsoever wanted except perhaps being open-minded and open to debate. I've often found you FC to be fine in this respect. In fact on a site of perhaps 200-300 active posters there are probably none I would actively avoid, albeit one or two I'm cautious about.

5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Finally, how has your day to day life changed since we left this year? What has Brexit actually altered? 

My response is emotional and always has been a driver. That said I've spent around 40 years actively trying to bring people together, to collaborate, to better themselves. 25 years of doing so in one to one situations. So, it's there on the inside I suppose. I've never worked purely for self interest but more in service to others. So, you will understand the personal objectives I'm sure. 

That's why I enjoy life. I'm left of centre in politics. It's a place where you can feel part of progressive ideas. I'm an idealist more than a realist. After 40 plus years working that has increased not decreased. I want to see better futures for other people. I want to see an end to inequalities or a fairer society if you will. I've seen how power corrupts people and organisations. Not healthy. 

Freedom of movement is harder and I've heard from people that foreign travel is more challenging though hasn't tightened fully yet. I will be testing that soon. Sons will apply for other nationality status because of my wife. Son cannot easily work abroad as he wished (he was an  Erasmus student). People I know have struggled in their independent businesses. They will re-train okay. Acquaintances from abroad (France, Netherlands in my case) are saddened. 

I think the country is more divided as a result. People pitted against people. Hate is closer to the surface. You read and see it.

This present government hasn't helped. If there had not been lie upon lie in the vote but more discussion it would possibly have been different. I believe whole swathes of folk have been bought off by big money and big interests. But that has always been the way. Look at our industrial past. Money talks.

I guess it depends how folk want to live their lives Fen. I'm at an age now where frankly and honestly o matter a lot less. Younger people do. I voted for them. Older folk voted for Brexit. That's a fact, look at the stats. There's an inverse relationship on voting patterns by age. Many Brexiters have left behind a weaker Britain in the world with less influence internationally. Why would I have ever signed up for that for my and others grandchildren? If I had have done it would have been difficult to live with. We all have personal choices and they depend on what is important to us.

Understand your comments about wages in some industries and let's hope it improves. That situation wasn't all to do with EU labour though. Other forms of immigration have taken place too. Look today or the last decade at the data.

Finally, I worked with some people in the EU itself. I developed programmes actually intended to improve collaboration, labour mobility and skills. I had work contacts within the commission. I met dozens of all EU nationalities through my work - at policy and practical level. I learnt so much,  felt very privileged to have had the chance to listen to really new ideas and  enjoyed their company. Those conversations might still be possible but the opportunities now less, absent even. I have many former colleagues directly affected. Redundancy. The fall out has been difficult.

Anyway, too long again (sorry for anyone bored by my absolute drivel). I think like one or two others I will take my views away and not post. They won't and don't contribute much. I'm not influential any more. I used to be! Back to enjoying what I can, to read rather than post (maybe very, very occasionally, like the charity thread on the main football side of the forum). Politics doesn't bring us together. Norwich City does. At least the club has a possible decent short term future. Life goes round too Fen.

 

 

 

 

Edited by sonyc

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5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

 

Secondly as a Brexit voter, what is it exactly that you want me to do? The only power myself and the other millions that chose to Leave is my vote, I have no power at all over the implementation.

You voted for something where the implementation was never properly explained, they didn't and still don't know what they are doing, all they did was lie and they are still lying now.

 

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51 minutes ago, sonyc said:

It's a giving up of effort with two people in my case not a falling out. Been the same with four others with the same two. Fixed mindsets are always a problem for me....the ability to actually  be curious. Conversations generally are closed off on virtually all (actually all) subjects! What is the real value of such friendship? Not bothered how someone votes (though I could never be married to someone very illiberal). I've a quiet life anyway. Only in the last year and a half have I even ventured into social media to actually give an opinion. Even now i ask myself if I should - Norwich City things or not. 

Nothing whatsoever wanted except perhaps being open-minded and open to debate. I've often found you FC to be fine in this respect. In fact on a site of perhaps 200-300 active posters there are probably none I would actively avoid, albeit one or two I'm cautious about.

My response is emotional and always has been a driver. That said I've spent around 40 years actively trying to bring people together, to collaborate, to better themselves. 25 years of doing so in one to one situations. So, it's there on the inside I suppose. I've never worked purely for self interest but more in service to others. So, you will understand the personal objectives I'm sure. 

That's why I enjoy life. I'm left of centre in politics. It's a place where you can feel part of progressive ideas. I'm an idealist more than a realist. After 40 plus years working that has increased not decreased. I want to see better futures for other people. I want to see an end to inequalities or a fairer society if you will. I've seen how power corrupts people and organisations. Not healthy. 

Freedom of movement is harder and I've heard from people that foreign travel is more challenging though hasn't tightened fully yet. I will be testing that soon. Sons will apply for other nationality status because of my wife. Son cannot easily work abroad as he wished (he was an  Erasmus student). People I know have struggled in their independent businesses. They will re-train okay. Acquaintances from abroad (France, Netherlands in my case) are saddened. 

I think the country is more divided as a result. People pitted against people. Hate is closer to the surface. You read and see it.

This present government hasn't helped. If there had not been lie upon lie in the vote but more discussion it would possibly have been different. I believe whole swathes of folk have been bought off by big money and big interests. But that has always been the way. Look at our industrial past. Money talks.

I guess it depends how folk want to live their lives Fen. I'm at an age now where frankly and honestly o matter a lot less. Younger people do. I voted for them. Older folk voted for Brexit. That's a fact, look at the stats. There's an inverse relationship on voting patterns by age. Many Brexiters have left behind a weaker Britain in the world with less influence internationally. Why would I have ever signed up for that for my and others grandchildren? If I had have done it would have been difficult to live with. We all have personal choices and they depend on what is important to us.

Understand your comments about wages in some industries and let's hope it improves. That situation wasn't all to do with EU labour though. Other forms of immigration have taken place too. Look today or the last decade at the data.

Finally, I worked with some people in the EU itself. I developed programmes actually intended to improve collaboration, labour mobility and skills. I had work contacts within the commission. I met dozens of all EU nationalities through my work - at policy and practical level. I learnt so much,  felt very privileged to have had the chance to listen to really new ideas and  enjoyed their company. Those conversations might still be possible but the opportunities now less, absent even. I have many former colleagues directly affected. Redundancy. The fall out has been difficult.

Anyway, too long again (sorry for anyone bored by my absolute drivel). I think like one or two others I will take my views away and not post. They won't and don't contribute much. I'm not influential any more. I used to be! Back to enjoying what I can, to read rather than post (maybe very, very occasionally, like the charity thread on the main football side of the forum). Politics doesn't bring us together. Norwich City does. At least the club has a possible decent short term future. Life goes round too Fen.

 

 

 

 

That’s fair enough, I can’t really argue with any of that. As I’ve said on here before, our opinions are largely based on our personal experiences. Yours has been positive regarding the EU with the people you’ve met and the jobs you’ve been involved in. Mine has been slightly different, whereby it’s days stuck on building sites with lads who can’t speak a word of English, working for bosses who take advantage of them paying them a pittance.

I’ll never blame anybody for voting the way they did, but I do get defensive when I’m accused being thick/ignorant/racist/bigoted etc for voting the way I did. I’ve always leaned to the left economically and to the right socially so I’ve never had an affinity with either party to be honest, I chop and change all the time so I’ve never understood why people get so upset after elections. 

Im not going to write about how I think Brexit will turn out in the future, as it’ll be different to yourself and simply ends up as a back and forth for forty pages which I don’t think either of us are particularly interested in.

Thanks for taking the time to reply though, I’d much rather discuss this with people such as yourself, even if we’ll never agree, than most on this board who resort to childish insults

Edited by Fen Canary

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26 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

You voted for something where the implementation was never properly explained, they didn't and still don't know what they are doing, all they did was lie and they are still lying now.

 

In fairness you could say the same about the vote to join in the first place all those years ago. The EU is vastly different to the EEC we originally voted to join, and Maastricht and Lisbon were forced through without the public having a say on the matter

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6 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

If you’re willing to give up a friendship over something so trivial then I’d imagine you’re going to live an extremely sheltered life.

That rather neatly captures just why you demonstrate so little knowledge about the effect of brexit on people's lives.  Go and stand at a fishing port and repeat that to the fishermen who have lost their livelihoods. Ditto that for farmers and the many SMEs watching their businesses collapse in front of their eyes. Perhaps you might want to "catch-up" on this morning's radio four farming show and listen to the effects brexit is having on the raspberry farmer who has simply told the locals to come and take his fruit for free because he is not allowed to employ European workers to pick his produce. Tell that to the single parent watching food prices sky-rocket, who will have to forgo meals herself in order to feed her own children. Tell it to the young person who no longer has the right to work in Europe, or the musician who can no longer afford to tour the continent.

I could go on, but it seems rather pointless in your case as you demonstrate no willingness whatsoever to think beyond your very limited comfortable world which will be little affected by the calamity that brexit has visited on so many other people not in your position.

Edited by horsefly
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2 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

In fairness you could say the same about the vote to join in the first place all those years ago. The EU is vastly different to the EEC we originally voted to join, and Maastricht and Lisbon were forced through without the public having a say on the matter

There wasn't a vote to join.

The public get a say when there is a general election.

None of the above excuses that you voted to leave without knowing how it was going to happen.

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3 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

There wasn't a vote to join.

The public get a say when there is a general election.

None of the above excuses that you voted to leave without knowing how it was going to happen.

Of course there was a vote to join, how do you think we joined the EEC in the first place all those years ago? 

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7 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

In fairness you could say the same about the vote to join in the first place all those years ago. The EU is vastly different to the EEC we originally voted to join, and Maastricht and Lisbon were forced through without the public having a say on the matter

The public votes for a government which speaks on its behalf. It's called representative democracy. Remember that Mrs Thatcher? You know, the one who was one of the major architects of the single market. She negotiated in what she considered to be the best interests of the country and stood for election on those grounds; and I assume you voted for her on her record. I presume you are not seriously suggesting that the government should have a referendum on every policy decision?

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25 minutes ago, horsefly said:

The public votes for a government which speaks on its behalf. It's called representative democracy. Remember that Mrs Thatcher? You know, the one who was one of the major architects of the single market. She negotiated in what she considered to be the best interests of the country and stood for election on those grounds; and I assume you voted for her on her record. I presume you are not seriously suggesting that the government should have a referendum on every policy decision?

We did have a referendum to join the EEC, the electorate voted to join so we joined

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8 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

We did have a referendum to join the EEC, the electorate voted to join so we joined

No, we didn't. It was an act of Parliament. We had a referendum on whether to stay in 1975.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Communities_Act_1972_(UK)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_membership_of_the_European_Union

The Treaty of Accession was signed in January 1972 by the then prime minister Edward Heath, leader of the Conservative Party.[5] Parliament's European Communities Act 1972 was enacted on 17 October, and the UK's instrument of ratification was deposited the next day (18 October),[6] letting the United Kingdom's membership of the EEC come into effect on 1 January 1973.[7]

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2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

We did have a referendum to join the EEC, the electorate voted to join so we joined

And do point out where I said we didn't have a referendum. And note, as Squit has corrected you, it was a referendum to remain in the EEC NOT a vote join it in the first place, perhaps you'd like to thank him for putting you straight on that FACT.

Edited by horsefly

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27 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

No, we didn't. It was an act of Parliament. We had a referendum on whether to stay in 1975.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Communities_Act_1972_(UK)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_membership_of_the_European_Union

The Treaty of Accession was signed in January 1972 by the then prime minister Edward Heath, leader of the Conservative Party.[5] Parliament's European Communities Act 1972 was enacted on 17 October, and the UK's instrument of ratification was deposited the next day (18 October),[6] letting the United Kingdom's membership of the EEC come into effect on 1 January 1973.[7]

This very nicely illustrates many of the issues surrounding Brexit. Many of the Brexiteer arguments are simply based on falsehoods or incorrect or misunderstood data & facts.

Edited by Yellow Fever
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1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

 The EU is vastly different to the EEC we originally voted to join, and Maastricht and Lisbon were forced through without the public having a say on the matter

Thankfully it's something that no longer concerns us.

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5 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Thankfully it's something that no longer concerns us.

Pretty foolish comment about our closest and far more powerful neighbour really.

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2 hours ago, horsefly said:

And do point out where I said we didn't have a referendum. And note, as Squit has corrected you, it was a referendum to remain in the EEC NOT a vote join it in the first place, perhaps you'd like to thank him for putting you straight on that FACT.

Quack 😉

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2 hours ago, horsefly said:

And do point out where I said we didn't have a referendum. And note, as Squit has corrected you, it was a referendum to remain in the EEC NOT a vote join it in the first place, perhaps you'd like to thank him for putting you straight on that FACT.

Apologies, complete brain fade there of course the original referendum was about remaining rather than joining.

However my poor memory doesn’t mean the point of my argument is wrong. What people were voting on that day with the common market was vastly different to what the EU would become. You could argue that the voters didn’t actually know what they were voting for, and the fact those that were old enough to vote in the original referendum heavily backed leave second time around suggests many felt they were mislead originally

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Just now, Van wink said:

Quack 😉

Oh dear! Tiny Winkie's dementia bad again today I see. How very sad!

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18 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Apologies, complete brain fade there of course the original referendum was about remaining rather than joining.

However my poor memory doesn’t mean the point of my argument is wrong. What people were voting on that day with the common market was vastly different to what the EU would become. You could argue that the voters didn’t actually know what they were voting for, and the fact those that were old enough to vote in the original referendum heavily backed leave second time around suggests many felt they were mislead originally

None of the above excuses that you voted to leave without knowing how it was going to happen.

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18 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

How much have we saved so far since leaving and did they build any super hospitals as promised? 

No, but Javid announced he was on his way to open one of the "new" hospitals.

Turns out they'd just rearranged the mops in the janitors cupboard..

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15 minutes ago, kirku said:

No, but Javid announced he was on his way to open one of the "new" hospitals.

Turns out they'd just rearranged the mops in the janitors cupboard..

These things take time, as long as they all keep to their word. 

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1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

Apologies, complete brain fade there of course the original referendum was about remaining rather than joining.

However my poor memory doesn’t mean the point of my argument is wrong. What people were voting on that day with the common market was vastly different to what the EU would become. You could argue that the voters didn’t actually know what they were voting for, and the fact those that were old enough to vote in the original referendum heavily backed leave second time around suggests many felt they were mislead originally

Fair enough! But the facts remain that we are a representative democracy and we vote governments in to lead the country and make policy decisions on our behalf.  We get the opportunity to vote any government out if we don't feel it has represented us appropriately.

Regarding your point about people not knowing what they were voting for in the original vote to remain, it certainly holds as much for the brexit vote as it does for that one. There are countless of examples all over the net of people saying they didn't realise what they were voting for (unsurprisingly many of those are the farmers, SME owners, fishermen,  etc who are now realising the consequences of that uniformed vote). A smiling Dominic Cummings took great delight in relating his brexit campaign's manipulation and dissembling in his interview with Emily Maitlis.

Government by referendums is destined to be ill-informed, incoherent, and devisive. Many US state governors will tell you that their governance is paralysed by conflicting referendum votes (e.g. votes for enhanced infrastructure projects typically go hand in hand with votes for radical tax cuts). Further, government by referendum by its very nature represents what John Stuart Mill described as the "tyrany of the majority over the minority" which is antithetical to a fundamental principle of democracy that all citizens have a right to have their views respected and represented insofar as they respect that same right in the case of others. A governmental system able to resist simple majority thinking is essential if a proper respect for the interests of minorities is to be maintained.

An inevitably ill-informed referendum was an appalling way to make such a fundamental decision on the future of this country, but that is what happened and we do indeed now have to find some way to live with that decision and mitigate against the damage that it is already doing to the economy and social fabric of the UK. Even the government's own reports identify that brexit will seriously damage the economy for more than a decade; and the divisions it is generating between the different parts of the UK will almost certainly lead to a prolonged and messy split up of the Union. 

As yet we have not got close to experiencing the full effects of this appalling brexit deal because large parts of it have still yet to be implemented or enforced. Very worryingly the evidence of those parts that have been implemented point to a potential disaster if the government continues to push its populist hard brexit line. Making the "best of it" will require resisting the follies of that self-defeating dogma. There is much that still can be done to lessen the harms that brexit threatens.

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23 minutes ago, kirku said:

No, but Javid announced he was on his way to open one of the "new" hospitals.

Turns out they'd just rearranged the mops in the janitors cupboard..

Yep! Not a new mop to be seen anywhere!

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7 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

These things take time, as long as they all keep to their word. 

If you're referring to the current government, their track record on "keeping their word" is absolutely horrendous

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8 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

These things take time, as long as they all keep to their word. 

Well they've already broken that word. Did you not see the leaked government email to NHS managers saying that the development or refurbishment of a single wing was supposed to be described as the building of a "new hospital"? It's worth following this doctor to keep up to date with NHS issues :

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