The Positive Brexit Thread

[Van wink 2,994]

Riley ( Reilly ) was Irish.

[Herman 9,717]

Does the Torygraph honestly think that Johnson is boosting support for the Union? He seems to be a recruiting sergeant for the SNP. 😀

[sonyc 5,492]

3 hours ago, Van wink said:

Something for you English lads

 

"The Archbishop of York has criticised the London “metropolitan elite” for treating people who are proud to be English as “backwardly xenophobic”.

The Most Rev Stephen Cottrell has called for “an expansive vision of what it means to be English” and for the country to rediscover a sense of “national unity”.

Writing exclusively in The Telegraph, below, the Archbishop of York, who is currently the most senior leader in the Church of England, also questioned why it had become taboo to be patriotic.

His comments come in the wake of a visit to Scotland by the Prime Minister aimed at boosting support for the Union, and after last month’s European football championships revived debate around English patriotism. 

The Archbishop said: “Many English people feel left behind by metropolitan elites in London and the South East, and by devolved governments and strengthened regional identities in Scotland and Wales.

“Their heartfelt cry to be heard is often disregarded, wilfully misunderstood or patronised as being backwardly xenophobic.”

 

I posted on the Independence thread a few months ago about what national identity meant and using the example of modern Germany on what has been attempted in a cultural sense post WW2.

Though I posted a link, I believe it was too long and boring to get any response (and one thing I've learned over all the time I've been on this forum is that the one certain way of getting people to engage is to become personally abusive....something I'm never going to do. Hence I find myself feeling as if I am often  simply talking to myself!).

But back on track....it was a fantastic essay on how Germany has found what 'nation' means without being nationalistic. Not that everything there is perfect. Yet quite a fascinating read that the Germans would set up such an enquiry.

It reminded me reading too how some Scandinavian countries follow a version of Jantes Law (which incidentally I've followed myself for about 25 years now) for their value system.

Just wish we had the kind of moral leadership here to have a serious enquiry into national identity. A long term project about vision. It isn't going to happen under Johnson for sure. He is only about himself and being deliberately divisive. This article here is just ONE of a number I've read on his latest outrage. This man only knows how to be outrageous.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/06/its-offensive-wakefield-residents-on-pms-pit-closures-joke?

He has upset folk in Scotland and Wales too with these comments. Imagine him saying that about the Welsh mining industry for one moment VW!! You'll know of my roots and family connections too (I'm someone about 60% English).

So I agree with some of the things the Reverend says about the need for an expansive vision. As to his other comments they point at the class system and without reading his wider views, they have a rather reductive / simplistic ring to them. It would be useful to understand his fuller communication.

I've also suggested Johnson, as Herman notes (and Creative Midfielder),  is doing more promotional work for Scottish independence (and for that matter Wales) than Sturgeon or Drakeford could achieve in the time.

I now hope Scotland and Wales actually leave. I was firmly anti- Brexit because I felt we are always better in a world where we work together in a multi-state partnership ...yet I also had a very strong sense that Johnson pushed Brexit for his own political ends and not in the best interests of the country.

All very depressing because it's not a future I want for my children or their children. Where we go next as a country I don't know. I am very dispirited with it I ought to say.

Whether it's my age I don't know but it feels more perilous now than I've ever known. It feels as if modern society could get a lot worse (and this would make for quite a discussion!).

You just have to find meaning and delight in things close to you. As Voltaire might say now, you "tend your own garden". Where are the modern day philosophers?

Sorry for a long post. I tend to let my thoughts get carried away.

Edited August 7, 2021 by sonyc

[Van wink 2,994]

50 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I posted on the Independence thread a few months ago about what national identity meant and using the example of modern Germany on what has been attempted in a cultural sense post WW2.

Though I posted a link, I believe it was too long and boring to get any response (and one thing I've learned over all the time I've been on this forum is that the one certain way of getting people to engage is to become personally abusive....something I'm never going to do. Hence I find myself feeling as if I am often  simply talking to myself!).

But back on track....it was a fantastic essay on how Germany has found what 'nation' means without being nationalistic. Not that everything there is perfect. Yet quite a fascinating read that the Germans would set up such an enquiry.

It reminded me reading too how some Scandinavian countries follow a version of Jantes Law (which incidentally I've followed myself for about 25 years now) for their value system.

Just wish we had the kind of moral leadership here to have a serious enquiry into national identity. A long term project about vision. It isn't going to happen under Johnson for sure. He is only about himself and being deliberately divisive. This article here is just ONE of a number I've read on his latest outrage. This man only knows how to be outrageous.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/06/its-offensive-wakefield-residents-on-pms-pit-closures-joke?

He has upset folk in Scotland and Wales too with these comments. Imagine him saying that about the Welsh mining industry for one moment VW!! You'll know of my roots and family connections too (I'm someone about 60% English).

So I agree with some of the things the Reverend says about the need for an expansive vision. As to his other comments they point at the class system and without reading his wider views, they have a rather reductive / simplistic ring to them. It would be useful to understand his fuller communication.

I've also suggested Johnson, as Herman notes (and Creative Midfielder),  is doing more promotional work for Scottish independence (and for that matter Wales) than Sturgeon or Drakeford could achieve in the time.

I now hope Scotland and Wales actually leave. I was firmly anti- Brexit because I felt we are always better in a world where we work together in a multi-state partnership ...yet I also had a very strong sense that Johnson pushed Brexit for his own political ends and not in the best interests of the country.

All very depressing because it's not a future I want for my children or their children. Where we go next as a country I don't know. I am very dispirited with it I ought to say.

Whether it's my age I don't know but it feels more perilous now than I've ever known. It feels as if modern society could get a lot worse (and this would make for quite a discussion!).

You just have to find meaning and delight in things close to you. As Voltaire might say now, you "tend your own garden". Where are the modern day philosophers?

Sorry for a long post. I tend to let my thoughts get carried away.

Good post and thanks for the reply, the comment about the mining industry cut deep with me as I'm sure it does with many, there is a danger though in framing the discussion in the context of BJ, who is just warming the seat at number 10 for somebody else, whether a Tory or otherwise. The debate is much wider than the current incumbent but I do think there is a real debate to be had and a recognition, within England in particular, of the apparent simmering resentment that is felt by many patriotic (but not nationalistic in its more sinister connotation) English people. Personally I think this feeling has not been helped by devolution, a seemingly, to some, one sided process delivering more independence to the Principality and other nations whilst at the very same time seeing a movement within England to dilute, again as some will feel, the perception of "Englishness". This is exacerbated  IMO because for too long England has been used as an alternative term for Britain, this really used to go against the grain with me and stirred my feelings of wanting a separate Welsh identity, the effect of this though is that all the current critical analysis of the role of Empire is seen by some to be a criticism of England alone. Anyway just a ramble 😀

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

9 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Good post and thanks for the reply, the comment about the mining industry cut deep with me as I'm sure it does with many, there is a danger though in framing the discussion in the context of BJ, who is just warming the seat at number 10 for somebody else, whether a Tory or otherwise. The debate is much wider than the current incumbent but I do think there is a real debate to be had and a recognition, within England in particular, of the apparent simmering resentment that is felt by many patriotic (but not nationalistic in its more sinister connotation) English people. Personally I think this feeling has not been helped by devolution, a seemingly, to some, one sided process delivering more independence to the Principality and other nations whilst at the very same time seeing a movement within England to dilute, again as some will feel, the perception of "Englishness". This is exacerbated  IMO because for too long England has been used as an alternative term for Britain, this really used to go against the grain with me and stirred my feelings of wanting a separate Welsh identity, the effect of this though is that all the current critical analysis of the role of Empire is seen by some to be a criticism of England alone. Anyway just a ramble 😀

We have an emerging group in Cornwall that have become the visible voice of the Cornwall is a Nation group.

Very, very stupid people. Proud, they say, of being Cornish.

I did point out to some vociferous Cornish not so long ago that I have more in common with Cornwall than those being born here have. I have chosen to live here. They live here because of accident of birth and not out of choice.

[BigFish 1,986]

8 hours ago, Van wink said:

Something for you English lads

 

"The Archbishop of York has criticised the London “metropolitan elite” for treating people who are proud to be English as “backwardly xenophobic”.

The Most Rev Stephen Cottrell has called for “an expansive vision of what it means to be English” and for the country to rediscover a sense of “national unity”.

Writing exclusively in The Telegraph, below, the Archbishop of York, who is currently the most senior leader in the Church of England, also questioned why it had become taboo to be patriotic.

His comments come in the wake of a visit to Scotland by the Prime Minister aimed at boosting support for the Union, and after last month’s European football championships revived debate around English patriotism. 

The Archbishop said: “Many English people feel left behind by metropolitan elites in London and the South East, and by devolved governments and strengthened regional identities in Scotland and Wales.

“Their heartfelt cry to be heard is often disregarded, wilfully misunderstood or patronised as being backwardly xenophobic.”

 

Not sure of your point here @Van wink, or even if there is any point.

It is always instructive to see members of an elite, in this case the second most senior bishop in an established church, opining on a so called "metropolitan elite" treating elements of the population in certain alledged but actually unspecified ways. The method of transmission is also of note. A newspaper with a track record of this sort of stuff owned by billionaire tax exiles.

I am just back from Bristol, a city with fierce local pride and developing a strong unified community. It has nothing to do with this claptrap. The logical conclusion is that this "heartfelt cry to be heard" is in fact a heartfelt cry to return to a time when it was acceptable to be "backwardly xenophobic", casually racist, misogynystic, sexist and racist.

Edited August 7, 2021 by BigFish

[horsefly 4,287]

9 hours ago, Van wink said:

The Most Rev Stephen Cottrell has called for “an expansive vision of what it means to be English” and for the country to rediscover a sense of “national unity”.

Did he give a full list of what an "expansive vision of what it means to be English" consists? Did he also provide an account of the "sense of national unity" that previously existed that we now need to rediscover? It would be useful to know what it is I'm supposed to be proud of before declaring my pride in it. Given that we can't achieve a sense of unity amongst a bunch of old duffers on a forum for supporters of the same club, I'm not convinced the Most Reverend is going to have much luck with that one. As one of those lovely contributors to Radio 4's "Thought for the Day" might put it: It's a bit like Jesus preaching a message of the brotherhood of man and peace to all humankind, only to find they nailed him up and watched him die of dehydration.

Perhaps his Most Rev should have a chat with Kim Jong-Un, I'm sure he'll pass on some hints and tips about how to achieve national unity.

[A Load of Squit 5,133]

There is no plan and Johnson doesn't have any answers.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/09/no-strategic-plan-brexit-james-ramsbotham-north-east-chamber-of-commerce

A letter to Boris Johnson sent a fortnight ago by James Ramsbotham called on the prime minister to save the north-east from the “damage being done to our economy” by Brexit and urged him to give it his “most urgent and personal attention”. Two weeks later, it remains unanswered.

The folly of Brexit.

 

[kick it off 1,948]

On 07/08/2021 at 16:47, BigFish said:

Not sure of your point here @Van wink, or even if there is any point.

It is always instructive to see members of an elite, in this case the second most senior bishop in an established church, opining on a so called "metropolitan elite" treating elements of the population in certain alledged but actually unspecified ways. The method of transmission is also of note. A newspaper with a track record of this sort of stuff owned by billionaire tax exiles.

I am just back from Bristol, a city with fierce local pride and developing a strong unified community. It has nothing to do with this claptrap. The logical conclusion is that this "heartfelt cry to be heard" is in fact a heartfelt cry to return to a time when it was acceptable to be "backwardly xenophobic", casually racist, misogynystic, sexist and racist.

I had a similar reading of the church bloke's comments. I'm about as firmly anti organised religion as it is possible to be and I would much rather this bloke, worried about prosecuting the litany of child abusers employed in his organisation than started spouting off about the state of the nation. The only reason he wants to go back is because the church was actually relevant back then. Religion is all but dead in this country and in 2021 thats probably about where it should be. I have no interest in going back to the halcyon days of misogyny, homophobia and racism. The reason the church is no longer relevant is precisely that.

Side note - absolutely agree about Bristol. Spent a day there a few weeks ago. Brilliant city and you can feel the community and local pride.

[Barbe bleu 814]

1 hour ago, kick it off said:

I.

Identity is important.

And by identity i mean status and tribe.  We can dress this up in many ways: nation, religion, football club, political affiliation, but it all amounts to the same thing. It can also manifest in many ways.  At the most extreme, wars. But the same impetus is what drives others to boo footballers, attack or defend the RNLI, to moan about 'flag shaggers' on twitter whilst proudly displaying the flags of the EU and the LGBTQ+ community, or to use a big green font on social media whilst calling yourself 'big' (sorry)

I dont think identity can be underestimated in its effect on us or its effect on history.

It's also evolutionary, we can moan about it but you cannot suppress it.  The need for tribe and status is older than **** sapiens. 

You cannot tell people they are not allowed their status or their tribe.   By telling them that they are not entitled you are only reinforcing the tribe and threatening their status - It causes a reaction.

Rather than waste  time in counter productive efforts to attack a chosen identity those who want to engineer a 'better' society will be much better off building an alternative, setting out a vision and attracting people to it.

 

[BigFish 1,986]

50 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Identity is important.

And by identity i mean status and tribe.  We can dress this up in many ways: nation, religion, football club, political affiliation, but it all amounts to the same thing. It can also manifest in many ways.  At the most extreme, wars. But the same impetus is what drives others to boo footballers, attack or defend the RNLI, to moan about 'flag shaggers' on twitter whilst proudly displaying the flags of the EU and the LGBTQ+ community, or to use a big green font on social media whilst calling yourself 'big' (sorry)

I dont think identity can be underestimated in its effect on us or its effect on history.

It's also evolutionary, we can moan about it but you cannot suppress it.  The need for tribe and status is older than **** sapiens. 

You cannot tell people they are not allowed their status or their tribe.   By telling them that they are not entitled you are only reinforcing the tribe and threatening their status - It causes a reaction.

Rather than waste  time in counter productive efforts to attack a chosen identity those who want to engineer a 'better' society will be much better off building an alternative, setting out a vision and attracting people to it.

You have completely missed the point. The creation of an identity by othering others is morally wrong, that you cannot see that speaks to your character rather than anyone else's. It is even more wrong when an educated elite attempts to manipulate a section of society, who feel that somehow they are missing out,  into believing they are down trodden by those who really do have hurdles to overcome rather than those who do the persuading. The country is developing a new inclusive identity, but these people don't want that. Why? Ask yourself what it is about the fine working class black sportsman Marcus Rashford that they dislike so much.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

59 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Rather than waste  time in counter productive efforts to attack a chosen identity those who want to engineer a 'better' society will be much better off building an alternative, setting out a vision and attracting people to it.

 

Isn't that precisely what we had done until the Brexiteers chose to trash it and take us back to a society of 50-70 years ago which most of us believed was long behind us (and were very glad that it was)?

[Barbe bleu 814]

28 minutes ago, BigFish said:

You have completely missed the point. The creation of an identity by othering others is morally wrong, that you cannot see that speaks to your character rather than anyone else's. It is even more wrong when an educated elite attempts to manipulate a section of society, who feel that somehow they are missing out,  into believing they are down trodden by those who really do have hurdles to overcome rather than those who do the persuading. The country is developing a new inclusive identity, but these people don't want that. Why? Ask yourself what it is about the fine working class black sportsman Marcus Rashford that they dislike so much.

My point was politically neutral. I didn't comment on which 'side' I subscribe to.

I might have missed your point, or KIOs point but I did  so deliberately.

The point I was making was that if you really want to make changes (and assuming you don't want to do it by fear) you give people a tribe they want to be part of.  You don't acheive much by attacking them other than to entrench positions and create a seige mentality.

[Barbe bleu 814]

37 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Isn't that precisely what we had done until the Brexiteers chose to trash it and take us back to a society of 50-70 years ago which most of us believed was long behind us (and were very glad that it was)?

Yes,  we were on a path and we were building something hopeful.   

But too many people were alienated, forgotten and derided.  We didn't appeal widely enough.  We got arrogant and exclusive, we thought ourselves better than some (not that we would admit it). Brexit was one symptom,  but there are others.

If people want to take us back 50-70 years it's because we haven't tried hard enough to set out a different, more modern, path that everyone can be happy on.   That's a shame because it was there to be trod.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Barbe bleu

[BigFish 1,986]

1 minute ago, Barbe bleu said:

The point I was making was that if you really want to make changes (and assuming you don't want to do it by fear) you give people a tribe they want to be part of.  You don't acheive much by attacking them other than to entrench positions and create a seige mentality.

Whether you choose to miss the point, or do it in advertedly, it makes no difference. The only attacking going on here is from right wing popularists attacking a mythical invented "liberal metropolitan elite" and stoking dissatisfaction among a sector of society who, although they are better off than they were, feel others are doing better and want someone to blame. The visit to Bristol I mentioned before was instructive in this, it took years to build the community that is now thriving in the face of systemic and instituitional racism. The Colston statue is a symbol of this, it was only by direct action by the community that it was finally removed after years stalled complaints. And yet our current government feel that the removal of, a rather crap, statue to a man who made his money on the forcible abduction of tens of thousands of men, women and children and the deaths of 19,000 or them strangely offensive.

[Barbe bleu 814]

1 minute ago, BigFish said:

Whether you choose to miss the point, or do it in advertedly, it makes no difference. The only attacking going on here is from right wing popularists attacking a mythical invented "liberal metropolitan elite" and stoking dissatisfaction among a sector of society who, although they are better off than they were, feel others are doing better and want someone to blame. 

Oh, I agree. The concept of a metropolitan elite is probably as old as civilisation and has been exploited so many times

Boris is able to play the card because the loudest opposition is so happy to play the part of the elite and so happy to attack the identities of those it should be appealing to.

 

[Bill 1,788]

It is only hand crank, as BB, peddling the lie that folk voted for brexit because some mythical elite either ignored them or patronised them.

Whereas the reality is most of the brexit vote was down to simple bigotry and racism. That's why it transcended so many 'social groups'. That this mythical elite is supposedly at fault for not offering a society where such views fit is a lie that would not disgrace the 'stabbed in the back'claim.

It was/is in the class interest of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage to fight back against an evolving society that threatens their position. One where the 'plebs' are better paid, have greater employment rights and see the environment  similarly protected.

The latter costs, and it is from the profits and dividends that the likes of Rees-Mogg *** off that such payments will come.

It is the challenge to their off shore tax scams, their private school tax avoidance and numerous other (dubious worth) charities that that concerns them greatly.

So fire the brexiteer types with scare stories of immigrants, tell fishermen and other dimwits that all they have to do is trust known liars and all will be well. Far better to be blatantly lied to, than to have the uncomfortable truth told to you, has been the brexiteers motto. One that has hit them smack bang in the face, just as slop thrown overboard into the wind will.

What BB is peddling, however much he dresses it up in hand crank style weasel words is no different to below, same message, only more subtle delivery

one is from Germany of the 1930s, the other the Daily Mail of 2015

[Barbe bleu 814]

33 minutes ago, Bill said:

 

And here comes Bill to stamp out any debate.

If I thought that Bill was anything other than a character played by a lonely individual I would say it's ironic  hepoats here to disagree as he largely proves my points.  He needs the 'status' that this forum allows him as it is absent elsewhere. And he is so objectionable that many people will actively avoid agreeing with him, even against their own interests.

But as his unhealthy obsession with 30s and 40s germany has once again reared its head I'm retiring from this.

[A Load of Squit 5,133]

Bl00dy Project Fear.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58146039

Vodafone has become the second UK mobile company to reintroduce roaming charges for users travelling in Europe.

From January, new and upgrading customers will be charged at least £1 a day to use their mobile phone in EU destinations, on several tariffs.

More folly of Brexit.

[horsefly 4,287]

4 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Rather than waste  time in counter productive efforts to attack a chosen identity those who want to engineer a 'better' society will be much better off building an alternative, setting out a vision and attracting people to it.

Exactly the approach used by Farage, Johnson, and Cummings during the brexit campaign in order to divide and rule. Result: a country probably more divided and polarised than at any time since WWII. The turbulent priest's claim that we should attempt to forge some kind of "expansive vision" of an inclusive "English identity" upon which we can all agree, is as absurd as it is dangerous. The country is at its best when it epitomises its Enlightenment inheritance of the principles of tolerance and the right of all individuals to pursue their own vision of what constitutes a good life to lead insofar as that same right is respected for others. That allows people to find value and identity in their particular "tribal" affiliations without thinking for one moment that just one of those affiliations (their own) has a pre-eminent right to represent what it means to be "English", "British", or whatever. 

Cottrell's intentions may be well-meaning, but the inextricable nationalistic implications of developing an expansive vision of national identity has a long history of wrecking disaster on the continent of Europe (and indeed elsewhere). It spells disaster for the minority groups within a country who do not share that vision, and frequently spells disaster for other countries who find themselves cast as external threats to that national identity. I needn't patronise any one with citing the obvious examples. The priest would be far better served making a case for tolerance, open-mindedness, and respect for others, than making an ill-advised call for a unifying national identity that would only serve to sow division and discord.

Edited August 9, 2021 by horsefly

[BigFish 1,986]

2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Boris is able to play the card because the loudest opposition is so happy to play the part of the elite and so happy to attack the identities of those it should be appealing to.

Really? The deputy leader of the Labour Party left school at 16, while the PM is Eton & Oxford. There is no attack from the Labour Party apart from calling out what is morally wrong. There is no way they should be appealing to the identities of racists, sexist, xenophobes.

Edited August 9, 2021 by BigFish

[Bill 1,788]

2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Yes,  we were on a path and we were building something hopeful.   

But too many people were alienated, forgotten and derided.  We didn't appeal widely enough.  We got arrogant and exclusive, we thought ourselves better than some (not that we would admit it). Brexit was one symptom,  but there are others.

If people want to take us back 50-70 years it's because we haven't tried hard enough to set out a different, more modern, path that everyone can be happy on.   That's a shame because it was there to be trod.

Same old misleading guff, whatever name hand crank posts under.

ie there is an elite who failed, and so deserve sh it like brexit, to be inflicted on them. If only they had not been so 'arrogant and exclusive'.

which supposes there is some underclass who need a superior group to lead them to a better way of life. Utter ****e !

utter ****e, that hand crank has repeatedly posted on here - and, as before, (like some dilettante) he has a fit of the vapours and goes to lie down as his nonsense is exposed for what it actually is

and who he is, as well

[Barbe bleu 814]

59 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Really? The deputy leader of the Labour Party left school at 16, while the PM is Eton & Oxford. There is no attack from the Labour Party apart from calling out what is morally wrong. There is no way they should be appealing to the identities of racists, sexist, xenophobes.

Im not talking about the labour party. They are guilty only of being absent. The fact that Johnson, who is metropolitan privilege personified, feels he can play the metropolitan elite card should, however, make you think.

And who said that anyone should appeal to a racist, xenophobic or sextist identity?! Certainly not me, I want the labour party (or anyone for that matter) to create snd sell a positive, realistic and broad vision to replace these things

I'll leave it there though.   Bill wants his fight and whilst I feel that this could be an area for interesting discussion I'm simply not willing to feed that pathetic character anymore.

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Barbe bleu

[ricardo 7,347]

Oh deary me.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

4 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Isn't that precisely what we had done until the Brexiteers chose to trash it and take us back to a society of 50-70 years ago which most of us believed was long behind us (and were very glad that it was)?

Yes. After world war two Dean Acheson, a US statesman, said the UK had lost an empire but not yet found a role. Which was true. Perhaps surprisingly the obvious solution, which was to slowly drop the idea (in reality the empty pretence) of being a world power and to join Europe, was adopted.

As with social policy, on the NHS for example, there was (after a while) broad agreement between the two main parties on this. Allied to this concord was a generally liberal (in the non-party sense) approach to morality, spurred on by the beneficial and wise influence of that most justly celebrated generation – the baby boomers.*

Generalisations like the following are fraught with danger, but overall the UK became a more egalitarian, outgoing and tolerant society. There is a ‘but’ coming.

A section of society, and really I mean a section of English society, never accepted this loss of imperial power and status. Because it made the UK look like other countries. And we were not just another country like the Netherlands, or Norway, dammit. We stood alone and won the war. It cannot be overstressed how powerful a factor for many is this backward-looking yearning and how resonant a symbol is the war in particular.

Some years ago, when we had Cram, Ovett and Coe ruling the middle-distance roost, there was one international race in which they came round the final bend together, and one sports writer said it was like seeing three Spitfires appearing out of the sun. Actually a cute image, but surely not the bl**dy war again?! Even now you have the film Dunkirk keeping the nostalgic theme going, with Spitfires and Elgar perfectly synchronised.

Someone one said ‘Happy is the country that has no history.’ The British Isles have almost too much history, and WW2 in particular is still just close enough to exert this powerful pull on the emotions, like the Moon influencing the tides.

Which is where Brexit comes in. It is the last (one hopes) hurrah of the insular, inward-looking xenophobic Englander who never came to terms with the post-war downsizing and has seen the chance to rekindle dreams of imperialism that are not just absurd but deeply damaging to the lives of millions.

If that was not bad enough there is now, to an extent linked, since there is an overlap of elements of society, these supposed culture wars, the main aim of which is to reverse the liberalisation of the social policies that helped make the UK a generally better place in which to live.

Nostalgia can be harmlessly quaint, as in Ye Olde Tea Shoppe, or it can be dangerously destructive. The UK is suffering from a severe bout of the latter kind.

*Yes, this was inserted to annoy the h*ll out of BF…

[Bill 1,788]

29 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Im not talking about the labour party. They are guilty only of being absent. The fact that Johnson, who is metropolitan privilege personified, feels he can play the metropolitan elite card should, however, make you think.

And who said that anyone should appeal to a racist, xenophobic or sextist identity?! Certainly not me, I want the labour party (or anyone for that matter) to create snd sell a positive, realistic and broad vision to replace these things

I'll leave it there though.   Bill wants his fight and whilst I feel that this could be an area for interesting discussion I'm simply not willing to feed that pathetic character anymore.

that hissy fit did not last long

had a think, realised that your guff sounded a little bit too much like hand cranks stuff

so you are trying to back pedal

problem is it is all too easy to check back on your previous stuff 🙄

[Van wink 2,994]

Good debate…….at least initially 😁

Of course ignoring a problem doesn’t make it go away .

Edited August 9, 2021 by Van wink

[Barbe bleu 814]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

Good debate…….at least initially 😁

Of course ignoring a problem doesn’t make it go away .

I'm ignoring it now.  The troll derails everything to be the centre of attention.   Bill is a character but the actor is a very tragic man

 

[Bill 1,788]

32 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'm ignoring it now.  The troll derails everything to be the centre of attention.   Bill is a character but the actor is a very tragic man

perhaps you could return as Nightfly 😆

[Herman 9,717]

As mentioned regularly the IEA is one of the opaquely funded that pushes things like brexit, climate denial etc. They are slowly getting caught out.