The Positive Brexit Thread

[SwindonCanary 455]

7 hours ago, Well b back said:

Firstly we only have had vaccines for 3 and a bit months. Secondly would you like to explain why you misled people on here saying the EU had not invested in manufacturing capacity ?. 
 

you are making it up I NEVER WROTE THAT !

[Fen Canary 793]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Are you getting closer to realising that it has been a giant waste of time, money and energy? 

Not at all, I’m still happy we’ve left. I wanted all decision making to be brought back to Westminster rather than Brussels, and I wanted the nationally elected government to be able to control immigration numbers from EU countries, both of which have been achieved.

I just find the constant guesswork and crystal ball gazing regarding economic arguments tiring. There are simply too many variables for anybody to know what either party will look like in a decade 

[Fen Canary 793]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Phew!!! And to think the CBI, the NFU, the RHA and thousands of owners of SMEs, etc, etc have all been needlessly worrying about the costs incurred by a massive increase in paperwork and loss of trade that brexit has visited upon them. I shall endeavour my best to ensure they get your reassuring message that they just need to wait for 5-10 years to see how things turn out. Shall I also tell them to ignore the government's own advice to set up branches of their businesses in the EU to get around the onerous and destructive regulations? I'm sure they would benefit tremendously from your expert opinion on this issue.

When I was a young lad I was out with my mates enjoying myself. You seem to be wasting your best years arguing and trying to insult strangers on the internet. I understand the pubs have been shut but surely you could have found something better to do with your time? 

[BigFish 1,986]

7 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Not at all, I’m still happy we’ve left. I wanted all decision making to be brought back to Westminster rather than Brussels, and I wanted the nationally elected government to be able to control immigration numbers from EU countries, both of which have been achieved.

I just find the constant guesswork and crystal ball gazing regarding economic arguments tiring. There are simply too many variables for anybody to know what either party will look like in a decade 

You are Lex Greensil and I claim my £5

[horsefly 4,287]

1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

When I was a young lad I was out with my mates enjoying myself. You seem to be wasting your best years arguing and trying to insult strangers on the internet. I understand the pubs have been shut but surely you could have found something better to do with your time? 

Is that the best you can come up with? Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised given your ridiculous uniformed and totally speculative piece of nonsense. Or would you like to share the extensive research you engaged in in making your fatuous claims, "A few hundred jobs lost here, a few hundred jobs gained there, trade down with some, increased with others etc. Which economic institute did you get that information from?

[A Load of Squit 5,130]

15 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Not at all, I’m still happy we’ve left. I wanted all decision making to be brought back to Westminster rather than Brussels, and I wanted the nationally elected government to be able to control immigration numbers from EU countries, both of which have been achieved.

I just find the constant guesswork and crystal ball gazing regarding economic arguments tiring. There are simply too many variables for anybody to know what either party will look like in a decade 

We could've controlled immigration from other EU countries when we were in the EU.

 

[Fen Canary 793]

9 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

We could've controlled immigration from other EU countries when we were in the EU.

 

How? Are you saying the EUs freedom of movement laws didn’t exist? EU citizens have the legal right to live and work in any EU country providing they can support themselves, and there’s nothing domestically elected governments can do to prevent it 

[horsefly 4,287]

10 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

We could've controlled immigration from other EU countries when we were in the EU.

 

Absolutely! And indeed we did just that with various stipulations about immigrants requiring a job offer etc. I wonder how many farmers would like the old pre-brexit system back

[BigFish 1,986]

1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

How? Are you saying the EUs freedom of movement laws didn’t exist? EU citizens have the legal right to live and work in any EU country providing they can support themselves, and there’s nothing domestically elected governments can do to prevent it 

Nothing wrong with this, in fact it is of great benefit.

Unless, of course, you don't like foreigners

[Fen Canary 793]

2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Nothing wrong with this, in fact it is of great benefit.

Unless, of course, you don't like foreigners

It’s not of great benefit if you’re having to compete with those newcomers for jobs, housing and public services is it? When builders from Eastern Europe were able to undercut the local workforce it benefitted nobody but the already wealthy 

[Fen Canary 793]

8 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Absolutely! And indeed we did just that with various stipulations about immigrants requiring a job offer etc. I wonder how many farmers would like the old pre-brexit system back

You’re talking nonsense. If an EU citizen could support themselves the government was powerless to remove them 

[horsefly 4,287]

2 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

You’re talking nonsense. If an EU citizen could support themselves the government was powerless to remove them 

And now our farms, nursing homes, the NHS etc find they can't fill their many vacancies. Great result for brexit Britain. Well done you!

[BigFish 1,986]

Just now, Fen Canary said:

It’s not of great benefit if you’re having to compete with those newcomers for jobs, housing and public services is it? When builders from Eastern Europe were able to undercut the local workforce it benefitted nobody but the already wealthy 

We have already been told by RTB about the great jobs miracle, many of which were roles undertaken by Europeans that UK employers found difficult to fill. These raised GDP and taxes to pay for public services. You should try explaining this lack of benefit to farmers whose crops are rotting in the fields for lack of labour, NHS workers seeing a shortfall in skilled staff, ex-pats ejected from the sunny climes they have made their homes, Universities struggling to get skilled researches etc etc. All because you don't like foreigners.

[Fen Canary 793]

4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And now our farms, nursing homes, the NHS etc find they can't fill their many vacancies. Great result for brexit Britain. Well done you!

Maybe if they paid wages people could live on, or trained their staff they wouldn’t struggle for workers? But why bother with that when you can import cheap labour instead?

I find it strange how those that proclaim to be left wing are happy for rich companies to import labour in order to suppress the wages of the working classes 

[Fen Canary 793]

6 minutes ago, BigFish said:

We have already been told by RTB about the great jobs miracle, many of which were roles undertaken by Europeans that UK employers found difficult to fill. These raised GDP and taxes to pay for public services. You should try explaining this lack of benefit to farmers whose crops are rotting in the fields for lack of labour, NHS workers seeing a shortfall in skilled staff, ex-pats ejected from the sunny climes they have made their homes, Universities struggling to get skilled researches etc etc. All because you don't like foreigners.

Maybe they should pay higher wages, then they wouldn’t struggle for staff?

Also GDP is an extremely poor guide to living standards. Importing millions of workers will always raise GDP, that doesn’t mean it’s raised the standard of living for those living there. A country of 10 million workers on the minimum wage would have  a higher GDP than one of 500k in the highest tax bracket, but I know which one would have the better quality of life.

 

[horsefly 4,287]

1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

Maybe if they paid wages people could live on, or trained their staff they wouldn’t struggle for workers? But why bother with that when you can import cheap labour instead?

I find it strange how those that proclaim to be left wing are happy for rich companies to import labour in order to suppress the wages of the working classes 

I find it strange how those who proclaim to be in favour of higher wages for workers don't blame the employers who are responsible for paying those low wages instead of pretending it's the fault of foreign workers.

[Fen Canary 793]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I find it strange how those who proclaim to be in favour of higher wages for workers don't blame the employers who are responsible for paying those low wages instead of pretending it's the fault of foreign workers.

Many aren’t left with much of choice. Those that pay their staff properly can be easily undercut by those that don’t, eventually leading them to go under through lack of work. Letting in an abundance simply leads to a race to the bottom

[horsefly 4,287]

1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

Many aren’t left with much of choice. Those that pay their staff properly can be easily undercut by those that don’t, eventually leading them to go under through lack of work. Letting in an abundance simply leads to a race to the bottom

Then criticise a government that allows this to happen instead of blaming the workers being exploited by unscrupulous employers. This really isn't a difficult issue to understand.

[Fen Canary 793]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Then criticise a government that allows this to happen instead of blaming the workers being exploited by unscrupulous employers. This really isn't a difficult issue to understand.

Nowhere have I blamed the workers, because I don’t blame them. In their situation I’d do exactly the same thing. Until we left the EU I didn’t blame the government either, as they were hamstrung by the freedom of movement laws and were powerless to stop it as long as the minimum wage laws were adhered to.

Now we’ve left and those laws no longer apply, I can blame the government if they allow it to continue.

[horsefly 4,287]

13 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Nowhere have I blamed the workers, because I don’t blame them.

Best not to lie like this when you have just posted the following:

"When builders from Eastern Europe were able to undercut the local workforce it benefitted nobody but the already wealthy" (So the foreign workers fault not the unscrupulous employer)

"I find it strange how those that proclaim to be left wing are happy for rich companies to import labour in order to suppress the wages of the working classes" (So the foreign workers fault not the unscrupulous employer)

"Maybe if they paid wages people could live on, or trained their staff they wouldn’t struggle for workers? But why bother with that when you can import cheap labour instead?" (So the foreign workers fault not the unscrupulous employer)

"Also GDP is an extremely poor guide to living standards. Importing millions of workers will always raise GDP, that doesn’t mean it’s raised the standard of living for those living there. A country of 10 million workers on the minimum wage would have  a higher GDP than one of 500k in the highest tax bracket, but I know which one would have the better quality of life.

Those that pay their staff properly can be easily undercut by those that don’t, eventually leading them to go under through lack of work. Letting in an abundance simply leads to a race to the bottom"  (So the foreign workers fault not the unscrupulous employer).

 

 

[BigFish 1,986]

41 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Maybe they should pay higher wages, then they wouldn’t struggle for staff?

Also GDP is an extremely poor guide to living standards. Importing millions of workers will always raise GDP, that doesn’t mean it’s raised the standard of living for those living there. A country of 10 million workers on the minimum wage would have  a higher GDP than one of 500k in the highest tax bracket, but I know which one would have the better quality of life.

Also Europeans were net positive on tax/benefits

[Fen Canary 793]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Best not to lie like this when you have just posted the following:

"When builders from Eastern Europe were able to undercut the local workforce it benefitted nobody but the already wealthy" (So the foreign workers fault not the unscrupulous employer)

"I find it strange how those that proclaim to be left wing are happy for rich companies to import labour in order to suppress the wages of the working classes" (So the foreign workers fault not the unscrupulous employer)

"Maybe if they paid wages people could live on, or trained their staff they wouldn’t struggle for workers? But why bother with that when you can import cheap labour instead?" (So the foreign workers fault not the unscrupulous employer)

"Also GDP is an extremely poor guide to living standards. Importing millions of workers will always raise GDP, that doesn’t mean it’s raised the standard of living for those living there. A country of 10 million workers on the minimum wage would have  a higher GDP than one of 500k in the highest tax bracket, but I know which one would have the better quality of life.

Those that pay their staff properly can be easily undercut by those that don’t, eventually leading them to go under through lack of work. Letting in an abundance simply leads to a race to the bottom"  (So the foreign workers fault not the unscrupulous employer).

 

 

You’ve just proved my point haven’t you. Not once have I blamed the workers themselves, as I say I’d do the same in their situation. However the freedom of movement laws allowed for the wages of the local workforce to be undercut by the new arrivals. Companies that paid their staff properly were unable to compete with those that took advantage of this abundance of cheap labour

[Fen Canary 793]

4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Also Europeans were net positive on tax/benefits

That doesn’t mean they didn’t put pressure on wages and living standards. Having many workers on lower wages would have a higher total tax take than fewer workers on higher wages, but the government would have much more to spend per head of population in the second example than the first

[BigFish 1,986]

Just now, Fen Canary said:

That doesn’t mean they didn’t put pressure on wages and living standards. Having many workers on lower wages would have a higher total tax take than fewer workers on higher wages, but the government would have much more to spend per head of population in the second example than the first

Higher wages=higher prices=less competitive business=we are all poorer

[horsefly 4,287]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

You’ve just proved my point haven’t you. Not once have I blamed the workers themselves, as I say I’d do the same in their situation. However the freedom of movement laws allowed for the wages of the local workforce to be undercut by the new arrivals. Companies that paid their staff properly were unable to compete with those that took advantage of this abundance of cheap labour

Oh dear! You clearly don't posses the nous to work out the implications of your own statements. I'll let others see what is blatantly obvious in the posts of yours I quoted. So let's move onto your new lie:

"However the freedom of movement laws allowed for the wages of the local workforce to be undercut by the new arrivals. Companies that paid their staff properly were unable to compete with those that took advantage of this abundance of cheap labour"

Please show me where it says in the laws about "Freedom of Movement" that employers were allowed to undercut the legal minimum wage when employing EU workers. 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by horsefly

[Fen Canary 793]

Just now, horsefly said:

Oh dear! You clearly don't posses the nous to work out the implications of your own statements. I'll let others see what is blatantly obvious in the posts of yours I quoted. So let's move onto your new lie:

"However the freedom of movement laws allowed for the wages of the local workforce to be undercut by the new arrivals. Companies that paid their staff properly were unable to compete with those that took advantage of this abundance of cheap labour"

Please show me where it says in the laws about "Freedom of Movement" that employers were allowed to undercut the legal minimum wage when employing EU workers. 

 

 

I never said they were allowed to pay less than the minimum wage. However imported labour on the minimum wage would still be undercutting the wages of the local workforce in most industries, such as construction

[SwindonCanary 455]

James Dyson isn’t a Brexit hypocrite | The Spectator

[Fen Canary 793]

8 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Higher wages=higher prices=less competitive business=we are all poorer

That sounds like you’re starting to veer into Thatcherism, and trickle down economics. Keep the wages down, business will be competitive and we’ll all be richer. 40 years of those policies have proven that it simply doesn’t work. Many countries such as Australia, Canada, the Scandinavian nations all pay higher wages than the UK, and all do nicely and regularly appear near the top of happiness indexes 

[BigFish 1,986]

Just now, Fen Canary said:

That sounds like you’re starting to veer into Thatcherism, and trickle down economics. Keep the wages down, business will be competitive and we’ll all be richer. 40 years of those policies have proven that it simply doesn’t work. Many countries such as Australia, Canada, the Scandinavian nations all pay higher wages than the UK, and all do nicely and regularly appear near the top of happiness indexes 

Not Thatcherism, basic economics. Btw the way many of the  the Scandinavian nations are members of the Single Market. They don't seem to have an issue with FoM

[horsefly 4,287]

5 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I never said they were allowed to pay less than the minimum wage. However imported labour on the minimum wage would still be undercutting the wages of the local workforce in most industries, such as construction

And the glaringly obvious answer to this "problem" is not to blame the workers for reducing wages but the employers for doing this. The blame also lies with a government that pitches minimum wage at an insufficient level. And as far as the wage levels established within certain industries, it was the Tories that abolished wages councils where those levels were established across all employers within that specific area.