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The Positive Brexit Thread

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14 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

TRUE THOUGH 

Indeed it is true that only you could decry name calling and then do precisely that in one short sentence. Glad you agree, but you really must stop posting these things or I really might die laughing.

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

Disgraceful 😡

Britain has matched just two of the EU’s 13 bans of harmful chemicals since Brexit

News follows several declarations from prominent Brexiteers that the UK’s regulation would be better managed outside the auspices Brussels

Plans to introduce tougher protections for the environment after Brexit have fallen by the wayside, with Britain matching just two of the EU’s 13 bans of harmful chemicals since the end of the transition period, a coalition of green groups warns today.

Despite assurances from Brexiteers that the UK would have more stringent environmental rules after it left the EU, Britain will actually have looser regulations on the use of microplastics, lead in PVC windows and rubber pellets on astroturf pitches, which are thought to be carcinogenic.

Greener UK, a coalition of groups including the National Trust, RSPB, WWF and the Marine Conservation Society, said the UK was now in the “slow lane” on regulating harmful substances, and warned that Britain’s new chemicals regulator was underfunded and understaffed

... and today I read , just to balance things a bit, that the EU which was going to reduce natural gas useage due to climate effects has reneged on a deal with scientists .....  when it suits eh !!

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2 hours ago, Van wink said:

is it

 

Yes. Despite what many are now claiming, the referendum vote, as the ballot paper made clear, was on something very simple. In or out. Nothing else. So Brexit can only be defined that way - that at some point after the vote the UK would leave the  EU, and that is what has happened.

There were no guarantees of this or that post-Brexit deal. So anyone voting for Brexit had to do so on the pessimistic assumption that they would get what from their point of view was the worst possible post-Brexit deal, but that for whatever reason it would still be worth it.

So a hard brexiter, like Paul Moy, perhaps, would have to assume there would be a Brexit in name only, with the UK doing a Norway and staying in the single market, with freedom of movement, but that even so that would be better than not leaving the EU.

And a soft Brexiter (I can't offhand think of a poster on this thread like that, but perhaps you might be able to😜) would have to assume they would get the hardest possible Brexit, with no trade deal, and perhaps even an indefensible  bonfire of environmental standards, but also regard that as a price worth paying.

As it stands, although he whinges as much as ever, Moy, if he only ever took a step back and used his brain, would realise he has got a Brexit much closer to the one he wanted and further away that the one he didn't want than our mythical Soft Brexiter, whose vote has produced what for them is very close to their idea of the worst possible Brexit.

But that was the risk they took. Anyone who was thinking of voting for Brexit but only if they got the Brexit they wanted, and viewed other Brexits as anathema, should have voted  Remain.

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This is quite correct.

"But that was the risk they took. Anyone who was thinking of voting for Brexit but only if they got the Brexit they wanted, and viewed other Brexit's as anathema, should have voted Remain."

I voted Remain principally as I'm not in the habit of writing blank cheques and no remotely credible Brexit plan was given (and still isn't).

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

Yes. Despite what many are now claiming, the referendum vote, as the ballot paper made clear, was on something very simple. In or out. Nothing else. So Brexit can only be defined that way - that at some point after the vote the UK would leave the  EU, and that is what has happened.

There were no guarantees of this or that post-Brexit deal. So anyone voting for Brexit had to do so on the pessimistic assumption that they would get what from their point of view was the worst possible post-Brexit deal, but that for whatever reason it would still be worth it.

So a hard brexiter, like Paul Moy, perhaps, would have to assume there would be a Brexit in name only, with the UK doing a Norway and staying in the single market, with freedom of movement, but that even so that would be better than not leaving the EU.

And a soft Brexiter (I can't offhand think of a poster on this thread like that, but perhaps you might be able to😜) would have to assume they would get the hardest possible Brexit, with no trade deal, and perhaps even an indefensible  bonfire of environmental standards, but also regard that as a price worth paying.

As it stands, although he whinges as much as ever, Moy, if he only ever took a step back and used his brain, would realise he has got a Brexit much closer to the one he wanted and further away that the one he didn't want than our mythical Soft Brexiter, whose vote has produced what for them is very close to their idea of the worst possible Brexit.

But that was the risk they took. Anyone who was thinking of voting for Brexit but only if they got the Brexit they wanted, and viewed other Brexits as anathema, should have voted  Remain.

Thanks for the lecture. 
The reality is that I voted for our ability as a sovereign nation to make the sorts of decisions, such as those concerning use of hazardous substances as above, for ourselves. That is exactly what has happened. Now whether or not I agree with the way in which the discretion has been exercised is a completely different matter, my remedy for that is through the ballot box or other lobbying, a preferable situation in my view to the  UK legislature slavishly following EU directive.

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Did you never stop to look at the people running the Leave contingent? It was pretty obvious which way we were heading.

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

Now whether or not I agree with the way in which the discretion has been exercised is a completely different matter, my remedy for that is through the ballot box or other lobbying, a preferable situation in my view to the  UK legislature slavishly following EU directive.

You do realise that as a member of the EU the UK had a voice in all the issues concerning its directives, as indeed does every member country of the EU. To describe the situation as "slavishly" following EU directive is thus rather excessive wouldn't you say? And do bear in mind that there are all too many people in the world who know exactly what it is like to be enslaved, and I'm sure they wouldn't associate it with the practices of the EU, however much you might despise its bureaucracy.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, horsefly said:
4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

You do realise that as a member of the EU the UK had a voice in all the issues concerning its directives, as indeed does every member country of the EU. To describe the situation as "slavishly" following EU directive is thus rather excessive wouldn't you say? And do bear in mind that there are all too many people in the world who know exactly what it is like to be enslaved, and I'm sure they wouldn't associate it with the practices of the EU, however much you might despise its bureaucracy.

And you wonder why people don’t engage, can’t help yourself can you, bye bye x 🍷🤥😉

Edited by Van wink

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2 minutes ago, Van wink said:

And you wonder why people don’t engage, can’t help yourself can you, bye bye x 🍷🤥😉

Do feel free to explain what is wrong with my reply. It was you that used the word "slavishly" in this crass manner. It fails to reflect the nature of our democratic relationship to EU policy, and it is frankly offensive to describe our situation as being enslaved when it is estimated that there are 20-30 million people actually enslaved in the world. It's precisely this sort of excessive language that brexiteers used to misinform the public.

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35 minutes ago, Herman said:

Did you never stop to look at the people running the Leave contingent? It was pretty obvious which way we were heading.

I wasn't voting for any particular people, I was voting for a change in our relationship with Europe,  one which gave us more democratic control. As I said before, how government exercises that control is a different matter but one which can be condoned or rejected through the ballot box.

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2 hours ago, Van wink said:

I wasn't voting for any particular people, I was voting for a change in our relationship with Europe,  one which gave us more democratic control. As I said before, how government exercises that control is a different matter but one which can be condoned or rejected through the ballot box.

A bit like the election of MEP’s then? 

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22 minutes ago, astro said:

A bit like the election of MEP’s then? 

Good to see you making your first post on this part of the Board astro and welcome,  "a bit like" yes certainly a bit like, but only a bit.

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7 hours ago, Van wink said:

I wasn't voting for any particular people, I was voting for a change in our relationship with Europe,  one which gave us more democratic control. As I said before, how government exercises that control is a different matter but one which can be condoned or rejected through the ballot box.

Ironic really then,

When we were in the EU our democraticly elected representatives got to vote on any trade deal or traety before implementation.

Now they don't.

In this aspect you voted for LESS democratic control.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated

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8 hours ago, BigFish said:

Ironic really then,

When we were in the EU our democraticly elected representatives got to vote on any trade deal or traety before implementation.

Now they don't.

In this aspect you voted for LESS democratic control.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated

I would do if the trade Bill hadn’t been voted on in Parliament. 

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2 hours ago, Van wink said:

I would do if the trade Bill hadn’t been voted on in Parliament. 

None of the other trade agreements have been voted on or even any of the negotiations over how the CTA is implemented. Trade is an entirely democracy free area now.

That is a backward step.

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I only dip into this thread very rarely but I see it still has the same bunch of obsessives constantly sniping in a battle that is long over. Any economic affects either for good or bad a will be lost in the ongoing noise of financial policy which will be massively more affected by the Covid Crises than anything else. In a worse case scenario Brexit effects might have meant a loss of small change, now they amount to less than a rounding error.

The rejoiners will  continue to huff and puff and doubtless there will be small changes to our relationship with the EU over time but this game really is over. No party is ever going to win an election on a rejoin agenda, there is simply no appetite for it and in practical terms too many bridges have been burned.

The UK will never become part of a federated European state on any conceivable time scale.

 

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12 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I only dip into this thread very rarely but I see it still has the same bunch of obsessives constantly sniping in a battle that is long over. Any economic affects either for good or bad a will be lost in the ongoing noise of financial policy which will be massively more affected by the Covid Crises than anything else. In a worse case scenario Brexit effects might have meant a loss of small change, now they amount to less than a rounding error.

The rejoiners will  continue to huff and puff and doubtless there will be small changes to our relationship with the EU over time but this game really is over. No party is ever going to win an election on a rejoin agenda, there is simply no appetite for it and in practical terms too many bridges have been burned.

The UK will never become part of a federated European state on any conceivable time scale.

 

Same here, it’s a shame than nothing seems to have moved on from the “hyper critical” to the “can do”, but it inevitably will in time.

Covid is a much much bigger issue than Brexit  and most will have formed a view on where we are best off.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Van wink said:

Thanks for the lecture. 
The reality is that I voted for our ability as a sovereign nation to make the sorts of decisions, such as those concerning use of hazardous substances as above, for ourselves. That is exactly what has happened. Now whether or not I agree with the way in which the discretion has been exercised is a completely different matter, my remedy for that is through the ballot box or other lobbying, a preferable situation in my view to the  UK legislature slavishly following EU directive.

Forgive me but I pay more attention to your first reaction than a belated explanation. The 'Disgraceful' and a very angry emoticon indicated you regarded this decison as totally unjustified, Brexit or no Brexit, rather than as you now claim something to be expected as part of Brexit and which you had factored in and were sanguine about.

Edited by PurpleCanary

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23 minutes ago, Herman said:

A simple apology will do lads.

That would require a measure of regret.

Which I don't have.😉

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ricardo said:

I only dip into this thread very rarely but I see it still has the same bunch of obsessives constantly sniping in a battle that is long over. Any economic affects either for good or bad a will be lost in the ongoing noise of financial policy which will be massively more affected by the Covid Crises than anything else. In a worse case scenario Brexit effects might have meant a loss of small change, now they amount to less than a rounding error.

The rejoiners will  continue to huff and puff and doubtless there will be small changes to our relationship with the EU over time but this game really is over. No party is ever going to win an election on a rejoin agenda, there is simply no appetite for it and in practical terms too many bridges have been burned.

The UK will never become part of a federated European state on any conceivable time scale.

 

As opposed to the I'm All Right Jack obsessive who dips into the thread to go on and on about a federated European state that exists only in the minds of those who think it makes a useful strawman argument, and then for good measure plays down what even the government has predicted will scr*w the UK econony for years to come, covid or no covid, and in particular will hit those of or soon to be of working age.

Edited by PurpleCanary
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34 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Forgive me but I pay more attention to your first reaction than a belated explanation. The 'Disgraceful' and a very angry emoticon indicated you regarded this decison as totally unjustified, Brexit or no Brexit, rather than as you now claim something to be expected as part of Brexit and which you had factored in and were sanguine about.

The explanation was given, as you seemed to prompt it, so I politely replied, rather than offering a belated comment. I do certainly regard the decision as wrong,  I don’t however plead that in a democracy we shouldn’t have the power to make it, and it will be accountable through ballot box. It’s how democracies work. 

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25 minutes ago, ricardo said:

That would require a measure of regret.

Which I don't have.😉

 

No, probably not. That'll need a level of empathy too.

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Posted (edited)

Whereas I would agree we wont rejoin the EU as it is - short of ten years (it will change too) - I would guess that the time line goes something like -

2 to 5 years - Scottish independence followed by them rejoining the EU. Scottish fishermen celebrate. RN needs several new bases.

6 years NI rejoins Eire.

Wales gets fiesty.

Much diminished 'rule taker' England looks to rejoin SM and the Premier League in ten years. Yes that quickly.

Reminds me of the lone star state.

The dividends of Brexit.

Edited by Yellow Fever

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Posted (edited)

Probably not full membership, I don't think there is anyone that could make it a big vote winner, but we will be looking at rejoining the SM/CU sometime soon.I could see us in a similar way to Norway/Switzerland.

Edited by Herman

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