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The Positive Brexit Thread

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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

So this is not really a legal argument, or at least one that wouldn't get laughed out of court. Perhaps this is why the gov hasn't found a single Scottish lawyer willing to take the role of Advocate General and make it.

Nicely put BF! I would also add the further point that the Good Friday Agreement depends fundamentally upon avoiding any sort of hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The UK government acknowledged this throughout negotiations for the WA and beyond. Every other country recognises this too (witness every party in the USA warning the UK that no FT deal will be possible if this happens). That meant that checks in the in the Irish Sea were an inevitable consequence of withdrawing from the single market, for indeed there is nowhere in the world where you will find an open customs border between two different markets. Protecting the GFA is absolutely central to the WA, and its insurance was a big part of what prolonged those talks.  A leaked civil service document published in the FT last week shows that Boris Johnson was warned about the potential extent of these checks well before he signed the WA. Nevertheless, he signed the WA, claiming that it was a wonderful deal. Now he wants to renege on that treaty breaching international law. It is precisely that which threatens the GFA. Johnson knows this, but his compunction to lie whenever he finds himself exposed by the truth remains as strong as ever. It not only heaps great shame upon this country but also threatens our future prosperity by giving us the reputation of a rogue nation not to be trusted to abide by our promises

Edited by horsefly
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A key question in all of this is can a nations respectability snap back to the previous status when a rogue government is rejected? We may find out this winter w.r.t. the US. I think it would only need a combination of sincere change of attitude from the leader and concrete actions to reverse course.

For the UK I'm not so sure. The trust deficit is still increasing, and it seems to be formalizing an antagonization of its friends in favor or a Potemkin-like facade of "something" not yet identified. 

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it's  clear the EU is using NI status as a leverage to get concession, no surprises ? and making out UK are the villains. What really is disappointing Canada, USA, Japan and others are given trade deal without them signing up to EU laws. Boris has every right to protect the good Friday treaty and UK interest trying to be undermined by outsiders. If horsefly needs evidence just look at what's happening !

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Canada, USA, Japan and others don't have a physical border with the EU do they?

Boris is NOT protecting the Good Friday Agreement is he?

The EU is a guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement and one of it's members - Ireland - is a signatory to the agreement; so how are they an outsider? 

 

- Your turn.

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1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

it's  clear the EU is using NI status as a leverage to get concession, no surprises ? and making out UK are the villains. What really is disappointing Canada, USA, Japan and others are given trade deal without them signing up to EU laws. Boris has every right to protect the good Friday treaty and UK interest trying to be undermined by outsiders. If horsefly needs evidence just look at what's happening !

If we are going to control our borders, we need to establish where they are 

Where do you think the borders with Ireland and France/EU should be?

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2 hours ago, Surfer said:

Canada, USA, Japan and others don't have a physical border with the EU do they?

Boris is NOT protecting the Good Friday Agreement is he?

The EU is a guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement and one of it's members - Ireland - is a signatory to the agreement; so how are they an outsider? 

 

- Your turn.

thanks surfer, saves me having to point out that this tiresome fool is regurgitating ridiculous assertions again. Although I still hold out hope that the Brexiteers here might one day attempt to provide a shred of evidence to back up their absurd cut and paste rantings.  When the USA said there's no chance of the UK negotiating a FT deal with them if they go ahead with the plan to renege on the the WA and break international law, they should of course have consulted SwindleCanary who could have put them right. Everybody else in the world (the USA, Irish and rest of Europe et al) thought it was Boris threatening the GFA but thank God that the genius SwindleCanary is here to correct us. 

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Article 16 of the EU's Withdrawal Agreement, Northern Ireland Protocol, between the European Union and the United Kingdom says

" It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule"

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That NI is part of the UK is not in dispute,  but what has that got to do with what you said earlier? BTW you did notice the second part of that quote?  Be very careful what you wish for. 

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Basically all the stuff we've been warning the brexiters about over the last few years, which was categorically put down as project fear, is now project reality and they are whinging about it like it has only come up at the last minute. 

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That was Boris Johnson ffs. We've been through that umpteen times. 

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Prime Minister David Cameron made a dire prediction about peace in Europe if the UK was to leave the EU.

Warning countries across the continent were "at each others' throats for decades" before the creation of the EU, he said once Britain left the trade bloc peace could not be guaranteed.

Referring to the world after Brexit, he said: "Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash as to make that assumption."

Edited by SwindonCanary

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9 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Article 16 of the EU's Withdrawal Agreement, Northern Ireland Protocol, between the European Union and the United Kingdom says

" It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule"

Could you please explain just what point you're trying to make here. No one on this site claims anything different. Indeed the points many of us are making concerning the need to avoid a hard customs border between the UK and Ireland depend precisely on this being the case. So what the hell is it that your trying to say? 

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3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Could you please explain just what point you're trying to make here. No one on this site claims anything different. Indeed the points many of us are making concerning the need to avoid a hard customs border between the UK and Ireland depend precisely on this being the case. So what the hell is it that your trying to say? 

The EU are making Northern Ireland a separate part of the UK by keeping it in the EU 

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1 minute ago, SwindonCanary said:

The EU are making Northern Ireland a separate part of the UK by keeping it in the EU 

No they're not. What would your solution to the NI problem be Swindon? 

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3 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

The EU are making Northern Ireland a separate part of the UK by keeping it in the EU 

How do we stop immigrants getting into the UK without checking at the NI/ROI border?

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All sides agree that imposing a physical border and related checks would seriously disrupt supply chains within what is a highly integrated island-wide market.  Politically it could imperil the Belfast Agreement of April 1998 which established peace between the various opposing factions in Northern Ireland and the Republic. The response of EU Brexit negotiators to these laboriously worked-out proposals has been negative.  Michel Barnier has made it clear that if such an arrangement were put in place, it could apply only to the border on the island of Ireland.  It could not extend to the UK as a whole because that would enable the UK to “cherry-pick” the advantages of intra-EU free trade while avoiding the obligations of membership, they need to change

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According to the Torygraph the brexit government are looking to try and rejoin the EU Galileo project as their plan is failing. And they are pinning it on Theresa May as her idea. 

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The government is furious. It claims UK entities have played an “integral part in designing, developing and managing Galileo to date, particularly the delivery of payloads for satellites, the ground control segment and the development of the PRS software.” The UK contributes to Galileo’s coverage through hosting two sensor stations at secure locations in the south Atlantic. The government claims that blocking UK industry from security-related areas risks causing delays of up to three years and additional costs of up to €1bn (£875m). Without being fully informed about the workings of the PRS, it claims, it would not have the assurances it needs to use the service in a military capacity. The UK has said it will demand the return of financial contributions to the programme of more than €1bn. 

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1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

The EU are making Northern Ireland a separate part of the UK by keeping it in the EU 

do please pass on the statement from the EU that says NI must stay in the EU. Utter tosh!

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20 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

All sides agree that imposing a physical border and related checks would seriously disrupt supply chains within what is a highly integrated island-wide market.  Politically it could imperil the Belfast Agreement of April 1998 which established peace between the various opposing factions in Northern Ireland and the Republic. The response of EU Brexit negotiators to these laboriously worked-out proposals has been negative.  Michel Barnier has made it clear that if such an arrangement were put in place, it could apply only to the border on the island of Ireland.  It could not extend to the UK as a whole because that would enable the UK to “cherry-pick” the advantages of intra-EU free trade while avoiding the obligations of membership, they need to change

Normal procedure is to quote your source when you cut and paste something like this. The idea that you would be capable of writing this is laughable. But don't worry I'll put the source here for you: https://trade-knowledge.net/commentary/a-backstop-solution-for-the-irish-border-problem/

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36 minutes ago, Herman said:

According to the Torygraph the brexit government are looking to try and rejoin the EU Galileo project as their plan is failing. And they are pinning it on Theresa May as her idea. 

Gosh! must be some mistake, next you will be telling me that they pis*ed multi-millions up the wall on a failed test and trace app. As we and others predicted Herman, the reality of Brexit, as opposed to the flag waving nationalistic ideology driving it, is crumbling before our eyes into a farcical mess

Edited by horsefly
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The president of the EU, Jean Claude Junker, said, ‘Someone who leaves the union cannot be in the same privileged position of member states.’ Other EU leaders have agreed with the decision to exclude the UK on the grounds of EU security.

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19 hours ago, Surfer said:

Canada, USA, Japan and others don't have a physical border with the EU do they?

Boris is NOT protecting the Good Friday Agreement is he?

The EU is a guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement and one of it's members - Ireland - is a signatory to the agreement; so how are they an outsider? 

 

- Your turn.

There is no easy answer to the NI border issue unless both sides reach a free trade deal agreement. 

Put a border between N and S and passions will be inflamed. Put it between NI and GB, passions will be inflamed. 

Both sides can claim some form of protection motive.   Lets hope its all for show all around.

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2 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

There is no easy answer to the NI border issue unless both sides reach a free trade deal agreement. 

Put a border between N and S and passions will be inflamed. Put it between NI and GB, passions will be inflamed. 

Both sides can claim some form of protection motive.   Lets hope its all for show all around.

You are right but we do have agreement. Remember Johnson  - the one May couldn't agree too but you did?

In simple terms NI is de-facto part of the UK customs territory but de-jure part of the SM and EU. Everybody was happy 😉

Irish sea checks needed as agreed. Just stop whining and get on with it.

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18 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

There is no easy answer to the NI border issue unless both sides reach a free trade deal agreement. 

Put a border between N and S and passions will be inflamed. Put it between NI and GB, passions will be inflamed. 

Both sides can claim some form of protection motive.   Lets hope its all for show all around.

That's what we are asking for a free trade deal agreement. Why are the EU not allowing it ?

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That's what they are trying to negotiate now for goodness sakes. 

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3 minutes ago, Herman said:

That's what they are trying to negotiate now for goodness sakes. 

Does have to contain being ruled by the EU ?

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