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The Positive Brexit Thread

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14 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Coronavirus: Italy hits single-day record with 250 deaths

  • The total number of cases in the European country hardest hit by the virus rose to 17,660
  • Italian foreign minister used the Chinese aid to criticise fellow member states of the EU, who have refused to supply health equipment.

Lots of fine words in your link Squit but at its time of greatest need Italy was let down!! 

Mr Half the story at his finest.

 

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9 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That's certainly true, but I wonder what mad Moyo's explanation is for the EUSSR allowing national governments to exercise their own sovereignity and implement whatever measures they think are appropriate in their own country 🤣🤣

Whats the point of all the fine words, the directives, the bureaucracy, the arrogance etc. if a member state in its hour of greatest need is left to sink. 

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25 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Lots of fine words in your link Squit but at its time of greatest need Italy was let down!! 

Yes, by their own government who did SFA in the face of a severe and obvious crisis - in other words, business as usual for Italy.

There was no way that the rest of Europe could extract them from that mess, and no inclination from some of the national governments especially those like the UK who were also sat on their @rses for several weeks whilst others actually took action to tackle the crisis.

People in glass houses......etc, etc,etc.

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6 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Yes, by their own government who did SFA in the face of a severe and obvious crisis - in other words, business as usual for Italy.

There was no way that the rest of Europe could extract them from that mess, and no inclination from some of the national governments especially those like the UK who were also sat on their @rses for several weeks whilst others actually took action to tackle the crisis.

People in glass houses......etc, etc,etc.

They asked for help, basic safety kit, and were ignored. Germany and others blocked exports of safety equipment, so much for the unity we have been told about so often. When the chips were down nationalism and self interest trumped. 

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We know you Brexiters like to be divisive but did you check to see if the Germans needed the safety equipment themselves. Maybe they had some sort of medical emergency as well??

Let's say the Italians needed testing kits and asked Britain for help. I am sure you would have been happy for us to hand over limited supplies to another country.

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10 minutes ago, Van wink said:

When the chips were down nationalism and self interest trumped. 

Brexit in a nutshell.

Well done, probably the most concise description I've heard.

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Posted (edited)

It’s what happens in the real world, whether you like it or not. Nation states, societies, social groups, families, will always want to look after their own, you can build a facade of E U  unity but ultimately when tested that’s all that it is, a facade.

 

Edited by Van wink

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So what you are saying is the EU isn't an overreaching, meddling and bullying bureaucracy and that nations are sovereign to make their own choices?? 

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Whatever you Brexiters want to think the international investors think the euro and the EU and the US are a far safer bet than the old ropey pound. Money talks as they say.

Isn't it 700Bn by the ECB tonight. 

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It tells us a lot about Germany. Many countries, not just Italy, appealed to Germany for help with medical equipment, but the Germans have refused saying they need it for themselves. So when the chips are down there is no 'we are all in it together'. EU unity was just a facade to allow Germany to get rich off the backs of other European nations. Well those little blue flags should be seen as the flags of surrender because it's in time of trouble when you find out who your real friends are. 

I see the Chinese are stepping into the vacuum created by the German failure to lead on a European level and are supplying equipment to smaller European countries. Of course, the Chinese will want something in return later and the collapse of the EU, which is already underway, won't be far off. 

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Whatever you Brexiters want to think the international investors think the euro and the EU and the US are a far safer bet than the old ropey pound. Money talks as they say.

Isn't it 700Bn by the ECB tonight. 

Do you think the ECB has really got 700Bn stashed away somewhere for a situation like this?

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7 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

With this virus and Brexit the big family that is the UK has gone, it's now nationalism !

Fixed that for you. 

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6 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Do you think the ECB has really got 700Bn stashed away somewhere for a situation like this?

One sentence, so much ignorance and hate

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6 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Do you think the ECB has really got 700Bn stashed away somewhere for a situation like this?

It's a central bank so of course - and if need be it can print it too.

Of course we don't have 350Bn either - but we can borrow it and BoE can print it too.

Sad thing is that of the two, investors clearly believe the EU / ECB is in a better position to do this - less risk - than the UK. Hence sell GBP and not  the Euro.

That's just one of those inconvenient truths for Brexters now being very publicly rammed home.

 

The the other lesson as Herman so clearly demonstrates - the EU is clearly not the overarching state (if it was it could have perhaps directed practical aid and material to Italy earlier from elsewhere) but the individual states clearly enjoy their sovereignty and individual power to act. Another Brexiteer myth completely destroyed.

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10 hours ago, Van wink said:

It’s what happens in the real world, whether you like it or not. Nation states, societies, social groups, families, will always want to look after their own, you can build a facade of E U  unity but ultimately when tested that’s all that it is, a facade.

 

It depends what you want to see. There is also a lot of evidence of cooperation in sharing information etc. It has not been sufficient yet, but in time we have to hope that someone will seize the mantle in the way that Gordon Brown did in 2008. The evidence of the markets is that monetary policy on its own is inadequate to deal with the economic consequences of the virus and it will require massive and coordinated fiscal intervention at some stage.

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

It's a central bank so of course - and if need be it can print it too.

Of course we don't have 350Bn either - but we can borrow it and BoE can print it too.

Sad thing is that of the two, investors clearly believe the EU / ECB is in a better position to do this - less risk - than the UK. Hence sell GBP and not  the Euro.

That's just one of those inconvenient truths for Brexters now being very publicly rammed home.

Also nails two other Brexiteer lies. Firsly that the £8billion UK contribution to the EU budget was a big number and significant. Secondly, the line @paul moy used to give us that the debt built up dealing with the 2008 crash was Labour's fault.

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20 minutes ago, Badger said:

It depends what you want to see. There is also a lot of evidence of cooperation in sharing information etc. It has not been sufficient yet, but in time we have to hope that someone will seize the mantle in the way that Gordon Brown did in 2008. The evidence of the markets is that monetary policy on its own is inadequate to deal with the economic consequences of the virus and it will require massive and coordinated fiscal intervention at some stage.

Not sure its about  "what you want to see" its more about what has been invisible. My final point on this, or I will be accused of politicising the outbreak which I dont want to do, is to say that surely if the EU is to mean anything more than a "common market" which I think most are content with, at times when the very fabric of European society and its people are under threat it should be showing leadership, otherwise whats the point? 

However to move on, with regards your Gordon Brown point, I agree, he showed considerable leadership in 2008 and did try to bring things together, hopefully someone will emerge and do the same now, cant see which direction thats going to come from at the moment though.

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9 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Not sure its about  "what you want to see" its more about what has been invisible. My final point on this, or I will be accused of politicising the outbreak which I dont want to do, is to say that surely if the EU is to mean anything more than a "common market" which I think most are content with, at times when the very fabric of European society and its people are under threat it should be showing leadership, otherwise whats the point? 

However to move on, with regards your Gordon Brown point, I agree, he showed considerable leadership in 2008 and did try to bring things together, hopefully someone will emerge and do the same now, cant see which direction thats going to come from at the moment though.

Agreed VW. I just think its a bit difficult indeed rich to expect a body that's really set-up to manage trade, the single market and with the Euro a common currency between otherwise sovereign states to suddenly act as true federal government that can dictate to the individual states as per the USA, China or even (federal) Germany. Very very clearly the EU is not this as demonstrated by the 'outbreak' (it might of been better if it was) and totally unfair of any Brexiter to then complain it hasn't acted as a superstate when they've spent the last three or four years telling everybody it is!

I do think as now do many others that Johnson will have to kick Brexit onto the long grass anyway - and by the time we get there it will be a different world, EU and Europe anyway.

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1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said:

Agreed VW. I just think its a bit difficult indeed rich to expect a body that's really set-up to manage trade, the single market and with the Euro a common currency between otherwise sovereign states to suddenly act as true federal government that can dictate to the individual states as per the USA, China or even (federal) Germany. Very very clearly the EU is not this as demonstrated by the 'outbreak' (it might of been better if it was) and totally unfair of any Brexiter to then complain it hasn't acted as a superstate when they've spent the last three or four years telling everybody it is!

I do think as now do many others that Johnson will have to kick Brexit onto the long grass anyway - and by the time we get there it will be a different world, EU and Europe anyway.

It will be a different world, the only hope is that some good will come of it and we will show more respect for our environment and all those we share it with.

 

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5 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 I just think its rich to expect a body that's really set-up to manage trade, the single market and with the Euro a common currency between otherwise sovereign states to act as true federal government and totally unfair of any Brexiter to then complain it hasn't acted as a superstate when they've spent the last three or four years telling everybody it is!

Shortened, but bang on

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29 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Shortened, but bang on

If that’s all it does then it’s very expensive. End of for me, bye. X

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2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

It's a central bank so of course - and if need be it can print it too.

Of course we don't have 350Bn either - but we can borrow it and BoE can print it too.

Sad thing is that of the two, investors clearly believe the EU / ECB is in a better position to do this - less risk - than the UK. Hence sell GBP and not  the Euro.

That's just one of those inconvenient truths for Brexters now being very publicly rammed home.

 

The the other lesson as Herman so clearly demonstrates - the EU is clearly not the overarching state (if it was it could have perhaps directed practical aid and material to Italy earlier from elsewhere) but the individual states clearly enjoy their sovereignty and individual power to act. Another Brexiteer myth completely destroyed.

Inorder to borrow you have to find a lender and I doubt there are many candidates putting up real money at this point in time. Indeed, one of the prime lenders in normal times would be Germany with their massive trade surpluses. But they are going to be one of the main beneficiaries of the ECB loans. 

Of course, my question was rhetorical, as there isn't any stash of money anywhere, and as you rightly point out it will just be printed money. Which is the same as the UK. As we know that money doesn't really exist and answers the question of the magic money tree in the affirmative. 

The money that the ECB is printing is about double what the UK plans to print so it's not as aggressive action. Unfortunately for the smaller EU countries they will get little say in the allocation of funds and most of it will go to the bigger players - Germany and France. They are also lumbered with a hopelessly overvalued Euro which will prevent them from exporting their way out of trouble, but that's good news for the UK because we will be best placed when the recovery comes due to the flexibility of our exchange rates - an advantage that the rest of the EU doesn't have. 

So what we are really seeing with the EU is a government which is powerless to act in an emergency. At the first sign of trouble, countries throw off the fig-leaf of co-operation and act in their own narrow self-interest. The EU cannot even protect the Greek border with Turkey which is under sustained attack from migrants trying to cross into Europe. The Greeks are getting help from Poland, Hungary and Austria while the EU remains impotent in Brussels. 

This pandemic will continue to drive division throughout Europe as the idealism of a federal state lies in tatters and countries realise they have to take it upon themselves to look after their own interests as the EU is powerless to act. 

And this 750Bn is a loan from the ECB to the banks. It will be expected to be paid back - on top of the existing levels of national debt.  If nothing else, if we get through the pandemic, the inability of member states to pay back their loans will topple the EU as countries begin to abandon the Euro and seek to float a national currency just as the UK does. 

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Agreed VW. I just think its a bit difficult indeed rich to expect a body that's really set-up to manage trade, the single market and with the Euro a common currency between otherwise sovereign states to suddenly act as true federal government that can dictate to the individual states as per the USA, China or even (federal) Germany. 

As every economist will tell you, you cannot have a common currency without a federal state. 

This is the foundation of sand upon which the EU is built. 

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A couple of weeks after the first E.U council official also tested positive. I imagine there is a lot of it going around now in the upper echelons of the political world.

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

As every economist will tell you, you cannot have a common currency without a federal state. 

This is the foundation of sand upon which the EU is built. 

It was always a fairweather project it seems. Death is national and now when the SHTF, borders close and each nation acts in its own self interest.

Whoever would have guessed it.

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2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Agreed VW. I just think its a bit difficult indeed rich to expect a body that's really set-up to manage trade, the single market and with the Euro a common currency between otherwise sovereign states to suddenly act as true federal government that can dictate to the individual states as per the USA, China or even (federal) Germany. Very very clearly the EU is not this as demonstrated by the 'outbreak' (it might of been better if it was) and totally unfair of any Brexiter to then complain it hasn't acted as a superstate when they've spent the last three or four years telling everybody it is!

I do think as now do many others that Johnson will have to kick Brexit onto the long grass anyway - and by the time we get there it will be a different world, EU and Europe anyway.

This Ricardo. 

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1 minute ago, Herman said:

This Ricardo. 

Just like I said about football, there is always the long grass.

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