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The Positive Brexit Thread

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I answered your question, the fact you don’t agree with my response doesn’t make it wrong. I said if it was a case of just a trade deal, like Canada has, then I don’t think anybody would have been against it, but it isn’t. There are so many things extra that come with it, such as the free movement laws, paying into the EU budget, the EU Commission etc that it has to be looked at as a whole. I personally don’t think that all the extra obligations is a price worth paying just for a free trade deal, especially as the average tariff with the WTO is only around 3%, though I’m well aware this can vary between sectors. 

Responses like yours are the reason the debate has become so polarised, and attitudes hardened during the last few years since the vote. Rather than accept people can have different viewpoints on the same subject, largely due to their lived experiences, you simply denounce them as clueless and think that your opinion is the only correct one. Different parts of the debate mean more to different people. You clearly care more about the monetary side of things than the democratic side, whereas others may think that getting away from an EU commission  they can’t directly elect is more important than paying an extra few % on imported goods. Some believe that the extra money spent on EU tariffs will be offset by the ability to trade freely with other countries in the future. Others want immigration from within the EU to be bound by the same rules as those from outside the EU, which won’t be possible if we continued to accept free movement laws as the price for a trade deal. It’s complicated situation, and there’s no doubt there was an element of risk attached to leaving, but in my view it was a risk worth taking. You could also say there would have been a risk in staying, as it would only take France or Germany to tip into recession and our contributions would have jumped considerably. 

No you didn't answer the question, you just repeated a number of Leaver arguments that it seems you barely understand and have been debunked on numerous occasions. Your obsession with the European Commission is one, it is nothing more than the EU's Civil Service-we don't elect the UK Civil Service so why would we elect the the EU's. You seem to think the EU has "a President" rather than understand that this is a job title equivalent to "head of" or Director and there five people who hold this leading various elements of the EU framework. You seem to think that the UK's financial contributions are onerous when the cost to the country of leaving has, is and will be much greater. You have an obsession with free movement (though I suspect this is more foreigners) without any idea of the gap stopping this will leave in the UK economy or the cost to the nation it involves. You are confused about the debate on the trade deal thinking this is about tariffs and can be solved by WTO rules WHEN NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD RELIES ON WTO RULES. The challenge is on standards, state subsidy, dumping and the related bureaucracy that will be involved in trading with the EU. This will add cost, make the UK less competitive and make us all poorer. The debate is not polarised by responses like mine, we have left and I accept that. The debate is polarised by Leavers who, because they have absolutely nothing to say about the future of the country, are still resorting to repeating the arguments that resulted in the referendum result. The result was not for something, but against. As a result it wasn't about the future, it was about the past.

 

 

Edited by BigFish

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9 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Ever had that feeling you were being stalked ?

All my notifications are from  Hoola Han Solo

Just waiting for you to say something sensible tbh. Sometime in the next 50 years will be fine 👍🏻

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While the country is distracted by the virus the government are busily sneaking out things in the hope we don't notice. They've already stopped the local and mayoral elections for a year now this "Boris blunder" is going into the list of unpuplished reports.

 

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13 hours ago, BigFish said:

No you didn't answer the question, you just repeated a number of Leaver arguments that it seems you barely understand and have been debunked on numerous occasions. Your obsession with the European Commission is one, it is nothing more than the EU's Civil Service-we don't elect the UK Civil Service so why would we elect the the EU's. You seem to think the EU has "a President" rather than understand that this is a job title equivalent to "head of" or Director and there five people who hold this leading various elements of the EU framework. You seem to think that the UK's financial contributions are onerous when the cost to the country of leaving has, is and will be much greater. You have an obsession with free movement (though I suspect this is more foreigners) without any idea of the gap stopping this will leave in the UK economy or the cost to the nation it involves. You are confused about the debate on the trade deal thinking this is about tariffs and can be solved by WTO rules WHEN NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD RELIES ON WTO RULES. The challenge is on standards, state subsidy, dumping and the related bureaucracy that will be involved in trading with the EU. This will add cost, make the UK less competitive and make us all poorer. The debate is not polarised by responses like mine, we have left and I accept that. The debate is polarised by Leavers who, because they have absolutely nothing to say about the future of the country, are still resorting to repeating the arguments that resulted in the referendum result. The result was not for something, but against. As a result it wasn't about the future, it was about the past.

 

 

This is the last time I’ll reply to your posts, as it’s simply going round in circles now, with you accusing me of not knowing what I’m talking about. I’ve gave my reasons regarding trade numerous times, in that I don’t think it’s wise to remain wedded to a bloc whose share of the world economy is shrinking year by year, and thus neglecting the emerging markets, most notably in Asia. I think we’d be much more able to take advantage of these opportunities if we have the ability to strike our own trade deals than if we have to include the interests of close to 30 other nations. The percentage of our exports that goes to the EU has also been falling steadily, with over half now going to countries outside the Union. Again this appears to be trend that’s been happening for a few decades, with no signs of reversing, and that’s even with free trade amongst EU countries and punitive tariffs on goods from outside, therefore I think it’s foolish to ignore the majority of our trade in order to keep a falling minority of our exports tariff free. Free trade with the EU would be great if it’s possible after we leave, however not at any cost. Currently there’s too much about the EU that I don’t like, as I’ve said numerous times, that outweigh the positives we get from the free trade. The UK is a big market, one of the top 10 economies in the world, numerous countries much smaller than it survive just fine outside the EU, the UK can too. 

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14 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

This is the last time I’ll reply to your posts, as it’s simply going round in circles now, with you accusing me of not knowing what I’m talking about. I’ve gave my reasons regarding trade numerous times, in that I don’t think it’s wise to remain wedded to a bloc whose share of the world economy is shrinking year by year, and thus neglecting the emerging markets, most notably in Asia. I think we’d be much more able to take advantage of these opportunities if we have the ability to strike our own trade deals than if we have to include the interests of close to 30 other nations. The percentage of our exports that goes to the EU has also been falling steadily, with over half now going to countries outside the Union. Again this appears to be trend that’s been happening for a few decades, with no signs of reversing, and that’s even with free trade amongst EU countries and punitive tariffs on goods from outside, therefore I think it’s foolish to ignore the majority of our trade in order to keep a falling minority of our exports tariff free. Free trade with the EU would be great if it’s possible after we leave, however not at any cost. Currently there’s too much about the EU that I don’t like, as I’ve said numerous times, that outweigh the positives we get from the free trade. The UK is a big market, one of the top 10 economies in the world, numerous countries much smaller than it survive just fine outside the EU, the UK can too. 

You really have been suckered by the unicorn peddlers @Fen Canary, if any of your reasons were factually based we wouldn't be going round in circles. Most trade is local, the growth in Asia will be predominently internal or intra-regional while you suggest throwing away the equivalent trade advantages with the largest market in the world is a good idea. Furthermore, if there is inter-region trade how will the UK compete with the EU, US and China? What will we trade in, what value will it have and what competitive advantage will the UK have? I suspect you cannot answer, because none of the unicorn-peddlers have ever been able to answer it.

Further, it is not, and never had been about tariffs-these are generally low for the EU if you bothered to resaerch them. It is all about non-tariff barriers. Your only for reason for Leaving appears to be that you don't like the EU, based largely on a list of fictions you have been fed and believed. That said the UK has left, losing significant benefits. You have yet to post one tangible compensation for this.

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20 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Our electoral system is definitely flawed when governments can gain an absolute majority on less than half the votes, and yes until the last election many seats were considered safe and hadn’t changed hands for years. Electoral reform should definitely be on the cards, however it’s unlikely as the three biggest parties currently in Westminster would lose seats because of it. 

Well at least we agree on that, except that IMO it's a pretty significant reason why handing complete control over to such a flawed set up is a bad idea. Far better (IMO) to have the check and balance of broader based and more democratic Europe wide institutions.

I don’t agree with comparing the Civil Service to the EU Commission either. MPs are above the civil service, and are accountable for its successes/failures (such as the windrush scandal). They also have no say over who becomes PM, whereas the Commission have much more power and choose the President. If the EU President could be removed by the electorate you could argue she’s accountable for them but she can’t.

This is silly, the EU Commission is led by EU Commisioners, politicians drawn from across the EU countries who are normally senior politicians in their own countries - the Commission is a direct parallel to the UK Civil Service. And as for accountability, I must have missed Theresa May, the MP almost entirely responsible for the Windrush scandal being held to account!!! There is no accountability in Westminister.

Finally, we only get to vote in around 10% of MEPs. While this is correct for our population, and giving the UK more would be grossly unfair to other countries, it does mean we can be outvoted even on matters that may affect the national interest. In much the same way Scotland understandably gets angry that it’s wishes can get overruled due to England’s larger population, the same scenario happens within the EU parliament. Whilst you could argue that you only elect one seat out of 650 at Westminster, I’m comfortable with this level of representation at a national level, less so at a multinational level, rightly or wrongly

Fair enough although I don't think I would agree with your judgement, but my original point was that in electing (or more likely not) electing your one seat out of 650 you are doing so via a very skewed system and your vote is very likely to be wasted. Whereas at least when you vote for your MEP you are doing so on a fair and even basis and therefore your vote is worth as much as everyone else's. The fact that your MEP may be outvoted by others is really no different to what happens in every democratic system the world over. If you have a setup in which you win every vote then we normally call it something other than a democracy........😕

 

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Looks like The Brexit Thread has picked up a dose of Coronavirus and self-isolated - 24 hours without a post, thought it was going to be four or five years more, at least, before that happened!!

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There were rumours that the transition period will be extended but the government are finding a time that is right to announce it. That is the only news about Brexit I have heard.

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2 minutes ago, Herman said:

There were rumours that the transition period will be extended but the government are finding a time that is right to announce it. That is the only news about Brexit I have heard.

Hadn't heard that but seems very much on the cards - don't think even this bunch of chancers have the brass neck to attempt to shrug their shoulders in a couple of months time and say 'sorry ran out of time, WTO it is'. Johnson is looking very chastened and older by the day - think he probably realises he's been very visibly caught with his pants round his ankles and is now really bricking it as it dawns that the outlook is looking increasingly grim.

Anyway, another couple of months of this and I'll be amazed if he's got the stomach to go out on another limb over the transition period especially as we head into a global recession, so an extension looks highly likely.

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If you are interested it was something Peter Foster was writing today. He's normally a reliable journalist, probably the last one at the Telegraph. 

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Hadn't heard that but seems very much on the cards - don't think even this bunch of chancers have the brass neck to attempt to shrug their shoulders in a couple of months time and say 'sorry ran out of time, WTO it is'. Johnson is looking very chastened and older by the day - think he probably realises he's been very visibly caught with his pants round his ankles and is now really bricking it as it dawns that the outlook is looking increasingly grim.

Anyway, another couple of months of this and I'll be amazed if he's got the stomach to go out on another limb over the transition period especially as we head into a global recession, so an extension looks highly likely.

Yes BUT. Who out of his 80 seat majority in the Commons is going to rock the boat and vote against the Government? Until there are at minimum 41 rebels, he has no constraints on his behavior. He just needs to keep the newspapers on his side. 

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8 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Sounds to me like you're fishing for stalkers 🙄

Nice work from @Hoola Han Solo to let Swindo stew in his obvious attention seeking. Good work.

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7 hours ago, Surfer said:

Yes BUT. Who out of his 80 seat majority in the Commons is going to rock the boat and vote against the Government? Until there are at minimum 41 rebels, he has no constraints on his behavior. He just needs to keep the newspapers on his side. 

That majority means the government can do exactly what they want for five years, and even in the last Parliament the government showed that governments have great power even when in a minority. But that is a weakness as well as a strength, they can do whatever they want so there are no excuses. They will be looking at the 2024 and public opinion in a couple of years. Major won a surprise victory in 1992, limped on for the full five years and ushered in 13 years of opposition for the Tories.

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9 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

And I'm waiting for a reply from that stalker !

For a man who alleges he has a wife, kids and is happy for us to leave the EU, you sure do come across as a very needy, bitter and miserable gammon.

If you’re lonely, would you like my email address or phone number?

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54 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

For a man who alleges he has a wife, kids and is happy for us to leave the EU, you sure do come across as a very needy, bitter and miserable gammon.

If you’re lonely, would you like my email address or phone number?

This isn't Grindr, mate. 

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2 hours ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

For a man who alleges he has a wife, kids and is happy for us to leave the EU, you sure do come across as a very needy, bitter and miserable gammon.

If you’re lonely, would you like my email address or phone number?

The stalker is back ! 

Hoola Han Solo

Why would I come across as a 

a very needy, bitter and miserable gammon.

just because my family want to leave the EU ? Like so many of the country, you are the odd one out !

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17 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

The stalker is back ! 

Hoola Han Solo

Why would I come across as a 

a very needy, bitter and miserable gammon.

just because my family want to leave the EU ? Like so many of the country, you are the odd one out !

Can I be a stalker if you’re the one looking for my attention (like you were last night)?

I can’t be sure if you’re constantly on the wind up (although you’re far too dim to be able to do that), criminally lacking in IQ, or maybe both. I’m thinking both, but I am certain you’re the biggest fckwit I’ve ever come across on the internet.

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Sorry everybody for taking part in Swindo’s childish games.

I will stop replying to him now, hopefully he can grow up a bit 👍

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Posted (edited)

 

Hoola-han solo reporting me for harassment and abuse after all the things he's called me = a little beyond belief 

Edited by SwindonCanary

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Apparently the government is running down the EU negotiating team and the US talks have been cancelled indefinitly. Extension to the transition period now looks inevitable. All that remains is to negotiate how much the UK will pay the EU for the privilege and when the government tells the Brexiteers.

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Not seen much from the EU on the Covid 19 outbreak, in fact they have shown no leadership whatsoever and individual member states have all gone their own way, closing borders, Germany blocking shipments of face masks to its neighbours,  Italians getting more help from China than from EU member states. The EU appears to have been an irrelevance and lost its voice at a time when we see the greatest threat to Europe since the world war. Where are you? Lets be 'avin you!!

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Not seen much from the EU on the Covid 19 outbreak, in fact they have shown no leadership whatsoever and individual member states have all gone their own way, closing borders, Germany blocking shipments of face masks to its neighbours,  Italians getting more help from China than from EU member states. The EU appears to have been an irrelevance and lost its voice at a time when we see the greatest threat to Europe since the world war. Where are you? Lets be 'avin you!!

I think the EU might be learning from recent events and is sticking to its lane.

Ie not showing leadership because that is the remit of  national government

Edited by Barbe bleu

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5 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Not seen much from the EU on the Covid 19 outbreak, in fact they have shown no leadership whatsoever and individual member states have all gone their own way, closing borders, Germany blocking shipments of face masks to its neighbours,  Italians getting more help from China than from EU member states. The EU appears to have been an irrelevance and lost its voice at a time when we see the greatest threat to Europe since the world war. Where are you? Lets be 'avin you!!

https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/health/coronavirus-response_en

VW, take off you Brexit blinkers.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Coronavirus: Italy hits single-day record with 250 deaths

  • The total number of cases in the European country hardest hit by the virus rose to 17,660
  • Italian foreign minister used the Chinese aid to criticise fellow member states of the EU, who have refused to supply health equipment.

Lots of fine words in your link Squit but at its time of greatest need Italy was let down!! 

Edited by Van wink

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24 minutes ago, Herman said:

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

That's certainly true, but I wonder what mad Moyo's explanation is for the EUSSR allowing national governments to exercise their own sovereignity and implement whatever measures they think are appropriate in their own country 🤣🤣

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