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The Positive Brexit Thread

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11 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I’m not the one constantly dragging it up my friend. For most of the country it’s no longer a point of discussion, it’s just a sad few who can’t let it go. Everybody else has long since moved on 

I don't think that's fair 

You, and many  others of us on this forum, have rightly criticised past policies and decisions that were taken years/decades ago, as we all see fit.

Brexit is no different, especially as it is still playing out

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The vote is done, remainers lost the vote, get over it and stop whinging.

There is much more to be done to make for a better future here, focus on that!!!

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2 hours ago, Nik Vawn said:

The vote is done, remainers lost the vote, get over it and stop whinging.

There is much more to be done to make for a better future here, focus on that!!!

To quote the late, great Jim Morrison: "Ram it up ya shooter!"😉

Edited by Herman
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1 hour ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

I don't think that's fair 

You, and many  others of us on this forum, have rightly criticised past policies and decisions that were taken years/decades ago, as we all see fit.

Brexit is no different, especially as it is still playing out

Well said. I think I read that 72% of people who voted for Brexit would vote for it again with only 16% stating their vote would be to remain. Attitudes are hard wired in it seems. However, a huge majority think Brexit has been a disaster or has gone very badly. But it is a very real and present subject, both for the country and for the parties. The subject still dominates conferences and not even the fringes.

It has been partially responsible for some food shortages, NHS staff shortages, travel chaos and much more (SME's, agricultural sectors). 

There is a thing such as Brexit fatigue and some have chosen to deal with this burying their heads in the sand. It is quite right to discuss it. To say something is in the past and to move on or get over it feels like a dismissive and derogatory comment to make. I think people can comment what they wish and if someone doesn't like the subject then they can just not read the thread on it.

I feel I would like to continue to comment on Brexit as well as anything else in the past. Whether those are Tory ones or Labour or Lib Dems or whoever. Europe is a past relationship in one sense (the union) but it's also going to be a future one and certainly it is part of our present. Relationships are dynamic.....they change constantly.

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Why would Brexit lead to NHS staff shortages? We’ve imported close to a million people in the last year, and NHS staff would still be classed as skilled workers so could easily get a work/settlement visa. If out of those million from around the globe we haven’t recruited/imported enough healthcare staff then that’s the fault of the NHS and the government, not Brexit.

This is why I get tired of the arguments. There is nothing stopping the NHS importing staff from the EU or anywhere else in the world. All Brexit has done is now treat Poles the same as Pakistanis 

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19 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Why would Brexit lead to NHS staff shortages? We’ve imported close to a million people in the last year, and NHS staff would still be classed as skilled workers so could easily get a work/settlement visa. If out of those million from around the globe we haven’t recruited/imported enough healthcare staff then that’s the fault of the NHS and the government, not Brexit.

This is why I get tired of the arguments. There is nothing stopping the NHS importing staff from the EU or anywhere else in the world. All Brexit has done is now treat Poles the same as Pakistanis 

I work in the NHS, EU workers went home, and not enough replaced by workers from Asia, Africa and the America’s. The pay is so s*** and the stress of working such long hours because of the shortages is really bad.

Not many Brits choose the NHS and other countries are recruiting our doctors and nurses, doubling their salaries.

Of course, you could always argue, like some posters did, that the wards are empty, and the nurses are having parties in the empty corridors.

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6 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I work in the NHS, EU workers went home, and not enough replaced by workers from Asia, Africa and the America’s. The pay is so s*** and the stress of working such long hours because of the shortages is really bad.

Not many Brits choose the NHS and other countries are recruiting our doctors and nurses, doubling their salaries.

Of course, you could always argue, like some posters did, that the wards are empty, and the nurses are having parties in the empty corridors.

Yep, two friends of mine are nurses who went into the private sector and another is a clinical psychologist who emigrated to Dubai. Even in Germany, the best ones tend to head into Switzerland for similar reasons.

(Ah, Miss TGS has stories to tell there, with her being a radiologist who went locum for several months).

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5 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I work in the NHS, EU workers went home, and not enough replaced by workers from Asia, Africa and the America’s. The pay is so s*** and the stress of working such long hours because of the shortages is really bad.

Not many Brits choose the NHS and other countries are recruiting our doctors and nurses, doubling their salaries.

Of course, you could always argue, like some posters did, that the wards are empty, and the nurses are having parties in the empty corridors.

So that’s a fault of the government isn’t it? The NHS is in such a state that we’re unable to recruit the staff we need for the pay on offer? All those staff from EU countries that lived here before the referendum had the right to settle permanently if they wished, and anybody with skills related to the health sector could easily work and live here under the current immigration system. The fact they’ve chosen not to means they have better opportunities elsewhere. That’s nothing to do with the referendum, it’s a failure on the part of the health service so I fail to see why people try to link them.

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Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Yep, two friends of mine are nurses who went into the private sector and another is a clinical psychologist who emigrated to Dubai. Even in Germany, the best ones tend to head into Switzerland for similar reasons.

(Ah, Miss TGS has stories to tell there, with her being a radiologist who went locum for several months).

And I am sure they will tell you, under new government savings, don’t use agency. Of course as they are in the majority retired, they are finishing for good, making the shortages even worse.

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3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Yep, two friends of mine are nurses who went into the private sector and another is a clinical psychologist who emigrated to Dubai. Even in Germany, the best ones tend to head into Switzerland for similar reasons.

(Ah, Miss TGS has stories to tell there, with her being a radiologist who went locum for several months).

So not related to Brexit then? If two are still in the country and the other has gone to a non EU country then them leaving is nothing to do with the referendum, it’s due to the shambolic underfunded health system

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6 minutes ago, Well b back said:

And I am sure they will tell you, under new government savings, don’t use agency. Of course as they are in the majority retired, they are finishing for good, making the shortages even worse.

This government's been unfit for purpose for years. Frankly, the only thing wrong with Boris Johnson on that zipline was that it wasn't hanging around his neck.

Edited by TheGunnShow
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1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

So that’s a fault of the government isn’t it? The NHS is in such a state that we’re unable to recruit the staff we need for the pay on offer? All those staff from EU countries that lived here before the referendum had the right to settle permanently if they wished, and anybody with skills related to the health sector could easily work and live here under the current immigration system. The fact they’ve chosen not to means they have better opportunities elsewhere. That’s nothing to do with the referendum, it’s a failure on the part of the health service so I fail to see why people try to link them.

Yep, it is. Would you work 12 hour shifts 7 days a week.

Of course the latest threat to our friends from Africa, Asia and the America’s is their husbands and wives could get sent home, so guess what, they no longer feel secure.

If you want to turn it to Brexit, remember the bus and the £350 million ? Yep one of the reasons I voted leave, only to find it was a lie.

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A lot of EU workers, in the NHS and care went home. They can work in the EU without all the hassle and cost of visas, health insurance, general hassle and on and on. It was simply like working in Newcastle or London for them. Easy come easy go and no need to make a commitment. Now of course just as easy to go much further afield and very little attraction to the UK for them.

Of course we can import such workers from further afield but again tend to be temporary. Shortage guaranteed.

Perhaps they should charge £200 a call out just like the plumber!

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14 minutes ago, Well b back said:

If you want to turn it to Brexit, remember the bus and the £350 million ? Yep one of the reasons I voted leave, only to find it was a lie.

How on Earth did you manage to get through the entire referendum runup without hearing anybody pointing out the fallacy of that or questioning it, particularly when you actually work in the NHS?

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4 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Yep, it is. Would you work 12 hour shifts 7 days a week.

Of course the latest threat to our friends from Africa, Asia and the America’s is their husbands and wives could get sent home, so guess what, they no longer feel secure.

If you want to turn it to Brexit, remember the bus and the £350 million ? Yep one of the reasons I voted leave, only to find it was a lie.

No I wouldn’t work there, the conditions are appalling for the pay on offer but as I said that’s completely irrelevant to referendum. And if workers are worried their spouse won’t get in (though I think that’s aimed more at the abuse of the student visas) then that’s a flaw in the immigration laws which needs changing 

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13 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

A lot of EU workers, in the NHS and care went home. They can work in the EU without all the hassle and cost of visas, health insurance, general hassle and on and on. It was simply like working in Newcastle or London for them. Easy come easy go and no need to make a commitment. Now of course just as easy to go much further afield and very little attraction to the UK for them.

Of course we can import such workers from further afield but again tend to be temporary. Shortage guaranteed.

Perhaps they should charge £200 a call out just like the plumber!

This particular point is so well documented. You don't even have to look very hard for so much research on the impact of Brexit on the NHS.

This is a decent enough analysis that even  Fen might accept. The article takes into account all kinds of nuances.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/has-brexit-affected-the-uk-s-medical-workforce

Then you have first hand reports of people who are working in the NHS (my son does too) and their accounts following the sign off of 'the deal '. I suppose anecdotes are to be dismissed. As is first hand experience.

Minds are made up. Fixed positions. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, sonyc said:

This particular point is so well documented. You don't even have to look very hard for so much research on the impact of Brexit on the NHS.

This is a decent enough analysis that even  Fen might accept. The article takes into account all kinds of nuances.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/has-brexit-affected-the-uk-s-medical-workforce

Then you have first hand reports of people who are working in the NHS (my son does too) and their accounts following the sign off of 'the deal '. I suppose anecdotes are to be dismissed. As is first hand experience.

Minds are made up. Fixed positions. 

 

 

What do they say ... the surgeon is unlikely to kill you but the anesthetist certainly can. 99% boredom 1% panic.

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2 hours ago, Herman said:

To quote the late, great Jim Morrison: "Ram it up ya shooter!"😉

The future’s uncertain but the end is always near 

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1 hour ago, sonyc said:

This particular point is so well documented. You don't even have to look very hard for so much research on the impact of Brexit on the NHS.

This is a decent enough analysis that even  Fen might accept. The article takes into account all kinds of nuances.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/has-brexit-affected-the-uk-s-medical-workforce

Then you have first hand reports of people who are working in the NHS (my son does too) and their accounts following the sign off of 'the deal '. I suppose anecdotes are to be dismissed. As is first hand experience.

Minds are made up. Fixed positions. 

 

 

That report states that the % of the NHS workers being EU citizens is unchanged, and the 4 medical disciplines it mentions as having shortages caused by the referendum all actually have more EU citizens working in them than before the referendum. It also states that the data showing a slowing (though still increasing) number of EU doctors coincides with an increase in training UK doctors and non EU doctors joining the health service, so there was less demand for EU workers than there was previously. All in all the data I read seems to imply that Brexit has had almost no effect, and there are actually more EU workers in the health service than there was a decade ago.

Finally the piece was commissioned by the Guardian, who have hardly been neutral in the debate. 

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7 hours ago, Nik Vawn said:

The future’s uncertain but the end is always near 

In all seriousness, many know that brexit and its poorly thought out deals by the Johnson government is a giant millstone dragging the country down. Sunak, in his defence, has tried to tweak it but it needs a lot more work. Not wanting to talk about it is zero help. 

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35 minutes ago, Herman said:

In all seriousness, many know that brexit and its poorly thought out deals by the Johnson government is a giant millstone dragging the country down. Sunak, in his defence, has tried to tweak it but it needs a lot more work. Not wanting to talk about it is zero help. 

Dragging the country down that much the UK is predicted to grow at a slightly faster rate than the Eurozone this year? 

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1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

Dragging the country down that much the UK is predicted to grow at a slightly faster rate than the Eurozone this year? 

Have you actually been outside your house and seen the state of the country? 

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The state of the country is such that we can't afford to build a railway line. 

Yes, we're no better or worse at the moment than the EU, but if we were still in the EU we would be flying ahead and we'd be able to afford public services. 

Some of us may have sound political reasons for wanting out of the EU but to argue that we are better off economically is nonsense I'm afraid. What we have at the moment is the equivalent of borders, checks and endless paperwork to move goods and services from Norfolk to Suffolk. 

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5 minutes ago, Herman said:

Have you actually been outside your house and seen the state of the country? 

I have, but what country are you comparing us to? If our economic malaise is solely due to leaving the EU, why is our economy set to slightly outperform the Eurozone this year? Why has our productivity been stagnant since before the Credit Crunch when we were members for a large part of that? 

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

In all seriousness, many know that brexit and its poorly thought out deals by the Johnson government is a giant millstone dragging the country down. Sunak, in his defence, has tried to tweak it but it needs a lot more work. Not wanting to talk about it is zero help. 

There should always be dialogue

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3 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The state of the country is such that we can't afford to build a railway line. 

Yes, we're no better or worse at the moment than the EU, but if we were still in the EU we would be flying ahead and we'd be able to afford public services. 

Some of us may have sound political reasons for wanting out of the EU but to argue that we are better off economically is nonsense I'm afraid. What we have at the moment is the equivalent of borders, checks and endless paperwork to move goods and services from Norfolk to Suffolk. 

What is that opinion based on? If the Eurozone is predicted to perform worse than Britain, why would Britain have massively outperformed its neighbours if we’d remained a member?

I’m not arguing that we’re predicted to perform better because we’ve left, but I also don’t think it’s plausible that we’d have been in some economic utopia if we’d stayed. If Europe was forging ahead economically then I’d be inclined to agree but it isn’t 

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7 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I have, but what country are you comparing us to? If our economic malaise is solely due to leaving the EU, why is our economy set to slightly outperform the Eurozone this year? Why has our productivity been stagnant since before the Credit Crunch when we were members for a large part of that? 

You're not grasping the problem. Would you be happy having nothing to eat because your neighbour had nothing either? 

The only valid comparison is where our economy would be if we were in the EU or perhaps more importantly, if we had agreed the right exit deal. 

There are numerous factors other than the EU that govern the state of our economy compared to that of say, Germany. The obvious ones are reliance on Russia and another is the strength of our currency. We have attracted huge inward investment because sterling is low. That is not a sign of success. 

Other than those obvious factors there are numerous others that have an effect. 

 

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2 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

You're not grasping the problem. Would you be happy having nothing to eat because your neighbour had nothing either? 

The only valid comparison is where our economy would be if we were in the EU or perhaps more importantly, if we had agreed the right exit deal. 

There are numerous factors other than the EU that govern the state of our economy compared to that of say, Germany. The obvious ones are reliance on Russia and another is the strength of our currency. We have attracted huge inward investment because sterling is low. That is not a sign of success. 

Other than those obvious factors there are numerous others that have an effect. 

 

Again, why are you predicting we would have been vastly better off if we’d remained a member? What is this prediction based on? If the rest of Europe is performing poorly why would Britain be the exception to the rule? 

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23 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Again, why are you predicting we would have been vastly better off if we’d remained a member? What is this prediction based on? If the rest of Europe is performing poorly why would Britain be the exception to the rule? 

My God, it's like pulling teeth. 

Please answer 4 very simple questions

1. The UK had a totally free and frictionless trade deal with 450 million people right on its doorstep. Do you think that introducing restrictions into that system will have increased or decreased our trade? 

2.  Do you think that seeking trade deals with countries on the other side of the world will replace the potential trade loss? 

3. Do you think there may be factors other than our trade deal with the EU that might affect the economic performance of  European countries? 

4. Why can't we afford to build a railway? And for that matter, why has our Chancellor just admitted that his party can't afford tax cuts in an election year? Despite the fact that tax is at its highest level since the 1940`s.

There is one very big clue for you. Jacob Rees Mogg, the standard bearer for a no deal exit stated that leaving the EU was a 50 year economic project. That's an an extraordinarily stark admission. 

You may think this disaster is worth paying for. But it's not you that's going to be paying for it. It's your children and grandchildren and mine. At least I can look my family in the eye and say it's not my fault. 

 

Edited by dylanisabaddog
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2 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

My God, it's like pulling teeth. 

Please answer 4 very simple questions

1. The UK had a totally free and frictionless trade deal with 450 million people right on its doorstep. Do you think that introducing restrictions into that system will have increased or decreased our trade? 

2.  Do you think that seeking trade deals with countries on the other side of the world will replace the potential trade loss? 

3. Do you think there may be factors other than our trade deal with the EU that might affect the economic performance of of European countries? 

4. Why can't we afford to build a railway? And for that matter, why has our Chancellor just admitted that his party can't afford tax cuts in an election year? Despite the fact that tax is at its highest level since the 1940`s.

There is one very big clue for you. Jacob Rees Mogg, the standard bearer for a no deal exit stated that leaving the EU was a 50 year economic project. That's an an extraordinarily stark admission. 

You may think this disaster is worth paying for. But it's not you that's going to be paying for it. It's your children and grandchildren and mine. At least I can look my family in the eye and say it's not my fault. 

 

You’re not wrong it’s like pulling teeth, you refuse to answer my question. Why do you assume that we would be outperforming all those other EU members if we were still part of the bloc? If being a member isn’t helping them why would Britain be the exception to the rule? What have you based your prediction on that Britain would be the sole strong performing major economy in the EU?

Because the economic catastrophe you hoped for never happened, we’re now reliant on making unrealistic predictions on what “might have happened”

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