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I think we are missing a trick, we should be calling it the Cost Of Leaving Crisis. 

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

I think we are missing a trick, we should be calling it the Cost Of Leaving Crisis. 

 

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

Cost of the Conservatives Crisis.

The surcharge for stupidity crisis!

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2 hours ago, horsefly said:

 

The surcharge for stupidity crisis!

I think somebody called it the Brexit Premium.

I even see it labelled on our DHL/Fedex invoices - a Brexit surcharge.

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On 29/11/2022 at 11:57, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's just not correct. Both were brought into the project sold on a very different idea to the reality that came to be.

I really think that you are flogging a long dead horse here - I think it pretty clear to almost everyone pre-launch exactly what GB News was going to be and so it has turned out.

The idea that Andrew Neil et al didn't understand what they were signing up for sounds pretty risible to me, and from what I remember Neil's reason's for bailing were unrelated to the objectives of the 'project' - it was partly the really shambolic and unprofessional nature of the channel in the early weeks and mostly the fact that they wouldn't let him work from home in, irony of ironies, France.

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On 29/11/2022 at 12:29, littleyellowbirdie said:

Andrew Neil is an excellent journalist ............

Had you said, Andrew Neil was an excellent journalist, then I would have agreed with you but he is donkey's years past his sell by date - that has been obvious for many years but if any further proof were necessary then I would suggest that his judgement is getting onboard with GB News is it.

The Andrew Neil of 20 years ago wouldn't have looked twice at them.

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52 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Had you said, Andrew Neil was an excellent journalist, then I would have agreed with you but he is donkey's years past his sell by date - that has been obvious for many years but if any further proof were necessary then I would suggest that his judgement is getting onboard with GB News is it.

The Andrew Neil of 20 years ago wouldn't have looked twice at them.

Andrew Neil is another person who I find hard to pin down.

Working class background but conservative in many of his views that appeared to contradict that background. But often at odds woith right wing Murdoch as editor of the Sunday Times. A republican. Convinced the second Iraq war was justified. 

 

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20 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Andrew Neil is another person who I find hard to pin down.

Working class background but conservative in many of his views that appeared to contradict that background. But often at odds woith right wing Murdoch as editor of the Sunday Times. A republican. Convinced the second Iraq war was justified. 

 

CM is clearly of the persuasion of thought that not agreeing with somebody means they're no good at what they do; naturally a unionist, small 'c' conservative Scot  like Neil won't be allowed as anything other than a crank where so many take pleasure in buying into the idea that all Scots hate the UK.

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I suspect AN was seduced by the notion that outside the BBC he could be more expansive and not have to find false 'balances' or tiptoe on such topics as climate change, Brexit or any other incendiary but truthful views that the BBC tried to steer clear from. He could robustly call a lie a lie. Sadly, he jumped to GB news and rapidly found it totally wacko and even more constrained into its cultist base.

Several other BBC journos have also left to find more freedom outside BBC but usually to more reputable organizations.

Edited by Yellow Fever
"Neil later called his decision to lead the channel the "single biggest mistake" of his career, comparing the channel to Fox News."

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Farage is trying to tap up Lady Susan Hussey. He likes the cut of her jib and can find a place for her in the Ukips.😉

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52 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

CM is clearly of the persuasion of thought that not agreeing with somebody means they're no good at what they do; naturally a unionist, small 'c' conservative Scot  like Neil won't be allowed as anything other than a crank where so many take pleasure in buying into the idea that all Scots hate the UK.

Clearly I am not since I acknowledged that he used to be very good journalist many years ago when he was indeed clearly very good at what he did and that is irrespective of whether I actually agreed with him, which I did on occasion but probably more frequently did not.

Quite where your babbling nonsense about Scots comes from I've no idea or indeed how it has any relevance to anything I said which I think I need to repeat since you clearly didn't understand the plain English I wrote last time.

This time in even plainer English - 30+ years ago Andrew Neil was a very good journalist at the top of his game (viz during his time as editor of the Sunday Times) but for the last decade at least he has become a very ordinary and unimpressive journalist living off the reputation he built much earlier in his career.

I'm not suggesting that is anything other than a personal opinion but I am certainly challenging your very confident assertion that he is a very good journalist which is simply your personal opinion and more importantly one that rather jars with recent (and I would argue not so recent) events.

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3 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Clearly I am not since I acknowledged that he used to be very good journalist many years ago when he was indeed clearly very good at what he did and that is irrespective of whether I actually agreed with him, which I did on occasion but probably more frequently did not.

Quite where your babbling nonsense about Scots comes from I've no idea or indeed how it has any relevance to anything I said which I think I need to repeat since you clearly didn't understand the plain English I wrote last time.

This time in even plainer English - 30+ years ago Andrew Neil was a very good journalist at the top of his game (viz during his time as editor of the Sunday Times) but for the last decade at least he has become a very ordinary and unimpressive journalist living off the reputation he built much earlier in his career.

I'm not suggesting that is anything other than a personal opinion but I am certainly challenging your very confident assertion that he is a very good journalist which is simply your personal opinion and more importantly one that rather jars with recent (and I would argue not so recent) events.

It is my opinion, absolutely, just like all the other opinions asserted on here like they're statements of fact. My opinion obviously jars with yours, which to be honest, could easily have gone without saying.

In my opinion, he's still a good journalist, regardless of whether you personally agree with his starting point.

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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56 minutes ago, Herman said:

I thought Brexit was supposed to give us cheaper food?

Fools and their money are easily parted it seems. What's Farage's latest money making scheme ?

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8 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I thought Brexit was supposed to give us cheaper food?

Fools and their money are easily parted it seems. What's Farage's latest money making scheme ?

I saw this little montage of key brexiter soundbites. It's hard to believe how they all got it so wrong.🤨

 

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34 minutes ago, Herman said:

I saw this little montage of key brexiter soundbites. It's hard to believe how they all got it so wrong.🤨

 

The tweet under that said, I'm prepared to pay more if it means no EU.

Not sure many would agree with him.

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58 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

The tweet under that said, I'm prepared to pay more if it means no EU.

Not sure many would agree with him.

A brexiter tax was proposed,many moons ago, to cover any short fall. I'm not that sure it would have been popular.😀

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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

The tweet under that said, I'm prepared to pay more if it means no EU.

Not sure many would agree with him.

Somebody asked him if he would pick up the bill for those of us that wouldn't 😀

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2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I thought Brexit was supposed to give us cheaper food?

Fools and their money are easily parted it seems. What's Farage's latest money making scheme ?

He opened a chain of supermarkets lol

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5 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I thought Brexit was supposed to give us cheaper food?

Fools and their money are easily parted it seems. What's Farage's latest money making scheme ?

Buying lots of scratchcards and selling them for twice the price to the same people who believed him the first time. And he has applied to be Lady Susan's carer.

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Reading Farage's name above gave me the shivers again. One of the biggest reasons for remaining in the EU was always the one about peace and a joining of nations. Undone, spun and lied about by people like Farage. Using the similar language of the enemy as Hitler. And 52% voted for it, believing it.

'History' takes place over a lifetime now and 1942 isn't so far away. This photo came on my timeline - it is both interesting and shocking because of the sheer devastation. Berlin, Warsaw flattened too amongst many other cities. 

I often wonder why the peace aspect of the Union was not emphasised enough at the time of the Brexit vote - from memory was it? .... at all? Would it have made a difference?... or is it part of the same narrative that 'bad old Germany' was running Europe and the economy (despite still Brexit voters driving their Mercedes and BMWs) and we just had to recover our sovereignty? Big joke that is. A big own goal.

Memory has a long shadow doesn't it? Many are still pleased that Germany are out of the World Cup. The 'sins of their fathers' are still not expunged. People still want to find and exploit their differences with others.

And all replaying again in Ukraine. The world is f***ed as there are not enough of the right kind of leaders (in the right places). And whilst this situation endures, then people will always be manipulated.

 

Edited by sonyc
Apologies for my maudlin reflections
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On 02/12/2022 at 11:13, sonyc said:

Reading Farage's name above gave me the shivers again. One of the biggest reasons for remaining in the EU was always the one about peace and a joining of nations. Undone, spun and lied about by people like Farage. Using the similar language of the enemy as Hitler. And 52% voted for it, believing it.

'History' takes place over a lifetime now and 1942 isn't so far away. This photo came on my timeline - it is both interesting and shocking because of the sheer devastation. Berlin, Warsaw flattened too amongst many other cities. 

I often wonder why the peace aspect of the Union was not emphasised enough at the time of the Brexit vote - from memory was it? .... at all? Would it have made a difference?... or is it part of the same narrative that 'bad old Germany' was running Europe and the economy (despite still Brexit voters driving their Mercedes and BMWs) and we just had to recover our sovereignty? Big joke that is. A big own goal.

Memory has a long shadow doesn't it? Many are still pleased that Germany are out of the World Cup. The 'sins of their fathers' are still not expunged. People still want to find and exploit their differences with others.

And all replaying again in Ukraine. The world is f***ed as there are not enough of the right kind of leaders (in the right places). And whilst this situation endures, then people will always be manipulated.

 

A German lad was on a pilgrimage through here to Santiago del Compostela in the Summer and recounted how his whole party was ejected from a pub in the UK with the landlord foaming at the mouth ranting about Hitler. It makes you cringe just how stupid people can be.

The peace element wasn't played on much at all in the campaign; when it was made, it didn't really have much impact. The problem with peace is, the longer you have it, the more people take it for granted. Nothing unites like a common enemy, and when there's a lack of a common enemy, people just find themselves new enemies, among themselves if necessary.

I also remember being surprised how little attention was paid to John Major and Tony Blair's public joint address on the threat to peace in Northern Ireland presented given that we were still having terrorist attacks on the mainland up to my early 20s when the Good Friday agreement took hold.

Also, I'm sorry to say the EU has taken ever closer union too far ideologically, taking for granted that all members will always be voluntarily liberal democracies in making rules insisting on it, while actually having no teeth to enforce those rules to deal with the likes of Poland and Hungary, while having no means of ejecting them, and pragmatically no desire to given the greater threat presented by Russia. Germany has made the credibility of the EU that much weaker in dealing with the likes of Poland and Hungary through its own courts challenging the supremacy of EU law in their decisions regarding the ECB.

The Finnish PM's talk at the Lowy Institute the other day was quite damning on the EU, being the first source with no axe to grind to point out that Europe has been totally dependent on the resolve of the US to contain Putin's aggression, in spite of Putin's aggression being much more an immediate threat to Europe than the US.

The EU's basically a good thing, but like all rule-making bodies, it's quick to make rules, good or bad, but very weak when it comes to repealing and/or reforming the bad. Additionally, the fact that some EU members enforce EU rules more rigorously than others becomes a source of resentment in the countries where the rules are more rigorously enforced.

At the end of the day, the EU is just a set of treaties and a bureaucracy. Without actual positive sentiment from within it dies, just like the UK.

So, in summary, you're absolutely right that remain should have played much more on the positive emotional argument, just as leave played on the negative emotional argument; reason rarely stands up in the face of emotion.

Edited by littleyellowbirdie
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Could I add that I suspect there is an ultra positive attitude to peace in Europe because of WWII and Soviet expansion. None of us in the UK know what its like to have been invaded. Indeed, many European generations don't.

I can only wonder what it is like to be invaded. A golfing buddy of mine, who has since died, said as a child in Belfast, he spent half his day with his arms in the air and and school satchel being searched. And that was I suppose, an invasion to them. Soldiers on the streets, checkpoints and raids.

I wonder what attitude to life I would have if my formative years where subject to that.

And of course we have all heard the "we saved them during the war" speeches from the pub orator.

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4 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Could I add that I suspect there is an ultra positive attitude to peace in Europe because of WWII and Soviet expansion. None of us in the UK know what its like to have been invaded. Indeed, many European generations don't.

I can only wonder what it is like to be invaded. A golfing buddy of mine, who has since died, said as a child in Belfast, he spent half his day with his arms in the air and and school satchel being searched. And that was I suppose, an invasion to them. Soldiers on the streets, checkpoints and raids.

I wonder what attitude to life I would have if my formative years where subject to that.

And of course we have all heard the "we saved them during the war" speeches from the pub orator.

I think that half the issue in the UK with us boomers is that we grew up in a society that screamed we won the war, full of 'heroic' B movie (propaganda) on the telly and such. Very difficult for most see past that upbringing and place it in context. What was the od Catholic priest saying - give me the child and I'll give you back the man....

The generation before that actually fought and died in the war actually tended to have a rather different and more constructive view of 'new' Europe.

 

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4 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Could I add that I suspect there is an ultra positive attitude to peace in Europe because of WWII and Soviet expansion. None of us in the UK know what its like to have been invaded. Indeed, many European generations don't.

I can only wonder what it is like to be invaded. A golfing buddy of mine, who has since died, said as a child in Belfast, he spent half his day with his arms in the air and and school satchel being searched. And that was I suppose, an invasion to them. Soldiers on the streets, checkpoints and raids.

I wonder what attitude to life I would have if my formative years where subject to that.

And of course we have all heard the "we saved them during the war" speeches from the pub orator.

KG I have first hand experience of living some of my childhood under Russian occupation, my cousins and family too. It’s not nice, one person out and one basket in to the shops, had to be carful what was said in public as so many others around you never knew who would report any comments overheard and when we used to travel across borders it would be hours being checked before being allowed in or out.

That said we still lived a relatively normal life though it was easier having dual nationality.

This is why I have a hard time in the reasoning of the questionable 51% who voted out, their views and easily lead mindset have lead to a poorer country, poorer outlook and a total isolated attitude which in two years has shown doesn’t work! We need the EU, we need to live in a world which sees a United way forwards, inclusive and open to communication without trying to install our own views on others. Debate and cooperation was the only way forwards and now we have more and more boundaries and problems than we should have, there was a point in mid 90’s where we had a chance to open up global communication to a point never seen before and we then allowed ourselves to allow mad leaders back into positions of power which has lead us to a point of repeating history.

Sad and sums up that humans aren’t the top of the natural old but a parasite on the world, one which can’t even as educated and evolved as we believe ourselves to be learn to live, look after and develop the planet rather than destroy all we have!

Edited by Indy
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26 minutes ago, Indy said:

KG I have first hand experience of living some of my childhood under Russian occupation, my cousins and family too. It’s not nice, one person out and one basket in to the shops, had to be carful what was said in public as so many others around you never knew who would report any comments overheard and when we used to travel across borders it would be hours being checked before being allowed in or out.

That said we still lived a relatively normal life though it was easier having dual nationality.

This is why I have a hard time in the reasoning of the questionable 51% who voted out, their views and easily lead mindset have lead to a poorer country, poorer outlook and a total isolated attitude which in two years has shown doesn’t work! We need the EU, we need to live in a world which sees a United way forwards, inclusive and open to communication without trying to install our own views on others. Debate and cooperation was the only way forwards and now we have more and more boundaries and problems than we should have, there was a point in mid 90’s where we had a chance to open up global communication to a point never seen before and we then allowed ourselves to allow mad leaders back into positions of power which has lead us to a point of repeating history.

Sad and sums up that humans aren’t the top of the natural old but a parasite on the world, one which can’t even as educated and evolved as we believe ourselves to be learn to live, look after and develop the planet rather than destroy all we have!

A really humane post indy. Thanks. 

The EU was never a perfect organisation in 2016 and nor is it today. One of the main aims has always been about cooperation, collaboration. LYB is right too above in his fair post on its bureaucratic deficiencies. And it suffers from this deficiency because compromise, debate and consensus is always messy, often complex.

At risk of repeating myself (in two or three past posts), I've witnessed myself, at first hand, how EU partners worked, how understanding between partners was reached, how complex and infuriating the various grant processes could be, how unfathomable issues such as fairness and international competition could be. But, when you got close up and actually got involved in debates with people from Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, France, Ireland, Germany, Finland etc etc then you experienced new ways of thinking, a deep respect for one another. Most of all people would develop a cooperation in trying to solve problems that made you feel you belonged to a bigger society, a bigger community.

To have lost all this for me was one of the saddest political events in my lifetime. To see the effects of isolation just unfold is deeply dispiriting. The UK has lost so much intellectual capital and not just pound notes. Papers concentrate on the money and the economy because that can be measured. Occasionally, you read about the human effect. But rarely about the lost opportunities. The opportunity cost. That loss is still to come, still to fully emerge. 

Such a vote should never have been so binary. Will never forgive Cameron or the liars that followed who took personal advantage for their own gain. Forgiveness is an  honourable thing but their actions are beyond any redemption.

 

Edited by sonyc
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50 minutes ago, sonyc said:

A really humane post indy. Thanks. 

The EU was never a perfect organisation in 2016 and nor is it today. One of the main aims has always been about cooperation, collaboration. LYB is right too above in his fair post on its bureaucratic deficiencies. And it suffers from this deficiency because compromise, debate and consensus is always messy, often complex.

At risk of repeating myself (in two or three past posts), I've witnessed myself, at first hand, how EU partners worked, how understanding between partners was reached, how complex and infuriating the various grant processes could be, how unfathomable issues such as fairness and international competition could be. But, when you got close up and actually got involved in debates with people from Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, France, Ireland, Germany, Finland etc etc then you experienced new ways of thinking, a deep respect for one another. Most of all people would develop a cooperation in trying to solve problems that made you feel you belonged to a bigger society, a bigger community.

To have lost all this for me was one of the saddest political events in my lifetime. To see the effects of isolation just unfold is deeply dispiriting. The UK has lost so much intellectual capital and not just pound notes. Papers concentrate on the money and the economy because that can be measured. Occasionally, you read about the human effect. But rarely about the lost opportunities. The opportunity cost. That loss is still to come, still to fully emerge. 

Such a vote should never have been so binary. Will never forgive Cameron or the liars that followed who took personal advantage for their own gain. Forgiveness is an  honourable thing but their actions are beyond any redemption.

 

To me Sonyc, it isn't the isolation, its the arrogance that so many think that isolation is preferable to what we had. Why remain in NATO? Why keep the Commonwealth? Why go on continental holidays? Why play in the World Cup? Why drink wine? We import 70% of Cheese. Thats a disgrace.

And the arrogance that only our leaders can write laws. Get rid of every EU law because they aren't ours.

So why are EDF in charge of Hinkley Point using Chinese money to build it?

And why do the Mail and Express wait on every word for the EU to make an error? See, we told you.

I despair.

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