Jump to content
Jools

The Positive Brexit Thread

Recommended Posts

I hear tweety pie has got a job as a van driver for Ocado, allegedly. He never managed to get an HGV license so this is the best we can expect.

Pop up toy shops in Norwich among all the shut down premises in the High street,are already making loadsa money and the slogan 'when its gone, its gone' ensures that they are having a great time.

Maybe Radio Narfuk should have a campaign to entice mens sheds to produce Christmas presents for the best xmas ever....:)

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Herman said:

 

Offer better wages, you’ll attract the workers you need. Supply and Demand, it’s how capitalism is supposed to operate. These companies have done nothing to train new drivers, have paid awful wages for years for the demands of the job and now go crying to the government because they’re having to accept less profit in order to attract staff?

I’m glad the government is standing firm, I never thought I’d see the Tories telling business to increase the salaries of their workers but here we are, strange times 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree with the core of that to be honest but the tories will also have to persuade their core voters/donors to pay more taxes and  proper prices for their goods. It's going to be a costlier Britain because of brexit but I guess you all knew what you were voting for.

Edited by Herman
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Herman said:

I don't disagree with the core of that to be honest but the tories will also have to persuade their core voters/donors to pay more taxes and  proper prices for their goods. It's going to be a costlier Britain because of brexit but I guess you all knew what you were voting for.

I did indeed. I voted for better wages for those at the bottom, especially in industries that previously had seen companies use immigration as a means of keeping labour costs down. I seem to be getting my wish 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I did indeed. I voted for better wages for those at the bottom, especially in industries that previously had seen companies use immigration as a means of keeping labour costs down. I seem to be getting my wish 

And the evidence of increased wages is....? And would you like to remind us how long it takes to train an HGV driver and get them on the road? And would you like to confirm that the government's response is not to increase minimum wage but change the law so that drivers can drive for much longer hours in much bigger lorries? Ditto for all the other areas of trade (farming etc) that are crumbling under the pressures of a dreadful brexit deal. If brexit was all about increasing the wages of the low paid the government have the very easy option of increasing the minimum wage. Can't remember that being a part of the brexit message.

Are you really that naive that you think Brexit Britain is going to be a high wage economy, when all the evidence points to a lowering of standards in an attempt to mitigate the calamatous decision to leave. Watch as the poor get poorer because of what you voted for. Prices are already sky-rocketing in all areas of trade (food, timber, energy, you name it). You voted to leave the most poverty stricken in our society even more mired in a parlous state than before the lies of brexit were trumpeted by a smiling Dominic cummings and his cabal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Large lorry companies on the news this morning saying there will need to be large rises in the cost of products, so that means higher wages for these jobs, yet the rest of us will be on the same wages ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And the evidence of increased wages is....? And would you like to remind us how long it takes to train an HGV driver and get them on the road? And would you like to confirm that the government's response is not to increase minimum wage but change the law so that drivers can drive for much longer hours in much bigger lorries? Ditto for all the other areas of trade (farming etc) that are crumbling under the pressures of a dreadful brexit deal. If brexit was all about increasing the wages of the low paid the government have the very easy option of increasing the minimum wage. Can't remember that being a part of the brexit message.

Are you really that naive that you think Brexit Britain is going to be a high wage economy, when all the evidence points to a lowering of standards in an attempt to mitigate the calamatous decision to leave. Watch as the poor get poorer because of what you voted for. Prices are already sky-rocketing in all areas of trade (food, timber, energy, you name it). You voted to leave the most poverty stricken in our society even more mired in a parlous state than before the lies of brexit were trumpeted by a smiling Dominic cummings and his cabal. 

That theory wouldn’t work though would it. You could raise the minimum wage to £20 an hour, and you still wouldn’t have enough HGV drivers unless they paid substantially more than that. Why would you go to the hassle of learning to drive a lorry, being away from home, long hours, etc when you can earn the same working on a checkout?

Those industries are going to have to improve their wages and working conditions, simple as that. As somebody who is supposedly left leaning I must say I’m surprised you don’t seem happy that the workers may now finally see an improvement in their salaries now their bosses can no longer import cheap labour.

As a final note, import costs are increasing the world over at the moment, the US, Australia, NZ, Japan etc are all seeing their costs rise largely to the disruption and backlogs caused by Covid. Are you going to blame those countries increases on Brexit as well? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Herman said:

Are you sure you are not simply moving your own goalposts? 

I don’t believe so. I’ve said from the beginning that immigration has been used to suppress wages, and was labeled as xenophobic for saying so. It appears now that immigration was indeed keeping wages down in certain sectors 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Large lorry companies on the news this morning saying there will need to be large rises in the cost of products, so that means higher wages for these jobs, yet the rest of us will be on the same wages ? 

Take it up with your boss 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

That theory wouldn’t work though would it. You could raise the minimum wage to £20 an hour, and you still wouldn’t have enough HGV drivers unless they paid substantially more than that. Why would you go to the hassle of learning to drive a lorry, being away from home, long hours, etc when you can earn the same working on a checkout?

And there was me thinking you were claiming that poorer people would be better off because of brexit, when all along you just wanted certain groups to benefit at the expense of the poor who will have to pay for those wage increases by coughing up much more at the check-out. Wow! what a lovely future awaits this country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And there was me thinking you were claiming that poorer people would be better off because of brexit, when all along you just wanted certain groups to benefit at the expense of the poor who will have to pay for those wage increases by coughing up much more at the check-out. Wow! what a lovely future awaits this country.

Seeing as it was predominantly the working classes that were negatively affected by large numbers of low and unskilled immigrants competing with them for jobs, hence the reason they voted to leave in the numbers they did, then it will be them that by and large enjoys the benefits of companies having their access to cheap labour curtailed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

That theory wouldn’t work though would it. You could raise the minimum wage to £20 an hour, and you still wouldn’t have enough HGV drivers unless they paid substantially more than that. Why would you go to the hassle of learning to drive a lorry, being away from home, long hours, etc when you can earn the same working on a checkout?

Those industries are going to have to improve their wages and working conditions, simple as that. As somebody who is supposedly left leaning I must say I’m surprised you don’t seem happy that the workers may now finally see an improvement in their salaries now their bosses can no longer import cheap labour.

As a final note, import costs are increasing the world over at the moment, the US, Australia, NZ, Japan etc are all seeing their costs rise largely to the disruption and backlogs caused by Covid. Are you going to blame those countries increases on Brexit as well? 

That theory wouldn’t work though would it. You could raise the minimum wage to £20 an hour, and you still wouldn’t have enough HGV drivers unless they paid substantially more than that. Why would you go to the hassle of learning to drive a lorry, being away from home, long hours, etc when you can earn the same working on a checkout?

Firstly, it's not a theory it's a policy. You completely miss the point that a minimum does not mean that workers in different areas can demand higher than minimum wage. By your own scenario HGV drivers might demand £30 an hour. It seems you only want some of the poorer paid to get higher wages while others (shopworkers etc) can go whistle. Nice!

Those industries are going to have to improve their wages and working conditions, simple as that. As somebody who is supposedly left leaning I must say I’m surprised you don’t seem happy that the workers may now finally see an improvement in their salaries now their bosses can no longer import cheap labour.

Moronic! I want all workers to be paid a fair living wage, not just a select few, which is your approach. A proper minimum wage would mean there is no possibility of "importing cheap foreign labour". But then that could have been achieved without all the disasters brexit has brought.

As a final note, import costs are increasing the world over at the moment, the US, Australia, NZ, Japan etc are all seeing their costs rise largely to the disruption and backlogs caused by Covid. Are you going to blame those countries increases on Brexit as well? 

Again, truly ignorant. Every major business and business organisation in the UK has provided evidence that brexit has caused them major economic damage and serious trading disruption. We all are very obviously aware that Covid has caused world-wide disruption, but you have to be possessed of a special kind of dogmatic ignorance not to recognise that brexit has added massively to that disruption in the unique case of the UK. Or should we believe you against the views of every business organisation in the country?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Seeing as it was predominantly the working classes that were negatively affected by large numbers of low and unskilled immigrants competing with them for jobs, hence the reason they voted to leave in the numbers they did, then it will be them that by and large enjoys the benefits of companies having their access to cheap labour curtailed. 

Wow! so very, very naive. Tell that to the mother now paying £2.40 for her butter instead of £1.10 (just one example from a local Budgens).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I don’t believe so. I’ve said from the beginning that immigration has been used to suppress wages, and was labeled as xenophobic for saying so. It appears now that immigration was indeed keeping wages down in certain sectors 

Your Lexit position is more commendable than some of the nonsense we've heard over the years but it wasn't what was sold as brexit. And also to use it now the **** is hitting the fan seems a bit disingenuous to me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Seeing as it was predominantly the working classes that were negatively affected by large numbers of low and unskilled immigrants competing with them for jobs, hence the reason they voted to leave in the numbers they did, then it will be them that by and large enjoys the benefits of companies having their access to cheap labour curtailed. 

Rather than Brexit being the answer to your issue of low pay my own view on this, for what it matters, is that perhaps you could think of challenging your stance to one of:

 

* A progressive alliance of Green, Libs and Labour

* Support for a kind of transferable vote / PR system

* Above campaigning for universal basic income for all, coupled with a progressive taxation system for those who can afford it....an idea that we ALL support each other

* Try and re-look at the customs union idea and free movement. That we are part of a bigger society that transcends pure 'sovereign nation' ideology and borders

* Build a UK based on the values this alliance establishes which marries with a properly broad national outlook (or Englishness if you want) and not culture wars and hollow populism

A a bit 'scandi' I realise but at least it's a far greater vision than Brexit ever was and can ever be. Brexit is not the sunny uplands - surely folk can see that.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Herman said:

Your Lexit position is more commendable than some of the nonsense we've heard over the years but it wasn't what was sold as brexit. And also to use it now the **** is hitting the fan seems a bit disingenuous to me. 

Immigration was one of the major reasons for vote Leave winning the vote, which led to the Remain camp labelling the Leave vote, and by association Leave voters, as racist. 

How many times has the likes of Horsefly said that cheap labour from Europe wasn’t responsible for suppressing wages among the working class? And now less than a year since leaving the EU we have shortages in those industries that were reliant on migrant labour and they’re complaining they may have to start paying higher wages to attract the staff they need?

I fail to see how businesses having to pay their workers more is a bad thing. If the higher wage costs mean some of the more poorly run ones fail then their market share will be taken by a more efficient competitor, productivity will be improved (something that has been stagnant for a long time) and eventually we’ll hit an equilibrium where there are fewer jobs needed and wages will settle again at a new level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Rather than Brexit being the answer to your issue of low pay my own view on this, for what it matters, is that perhaps you could think of challenging your stance to one of:

 

* A progressive alliance of Green, Libs and Labour

* Support for a kind of transferable vote / PR system

* Above campaigning for universal basic income for all, coupled with a progressive taxation system for those who can afford it....an idea that we ALL support each other

* Try and re-look at the customs union idea and free movement. That we are part of a bigger society that transcends pure 'sovereign nation' ideology and borders

* Build a UK based on the values this alliance establishes which marries with a properly broad national outlook (or Englishness if you want) and not culture wars and hollow populism

A a bit 'scandi' I realise but at least it's a far greater vision than Brexit ever was and can ever be. Brexit is not the sunny uplands - surely folk can see that.

 

PR I have no problems with personally, whilst it has its own problems such as having list MPs that can’t be directly voted out by the public, and the tail often wagging the dog in coalitions, it is still fairer than FPTP where a minority of voters can elect a government with a large majority as happened under Blair and Boris.

I also support higher taxes on the wealthy, there’s little point taxing the poor heavily as you end up having to give it back via tax credits and benefits simply so they can afford to live. I’m not convinced on UBI just yet, there may be a case for it in the future if the threats of automation leaving millions redundant comes to pass, but seeing as we currently have industries crying out for workers I don’t believe it’s needed yet. 

I can’t support the parties you mention in their current forms as to me they resemble a middle class student protest group rather than serious political parties. They need to spend less time supporting every niche group on Twitter (BLM/Trans Rights etc) and more time on bread and butter issues such as wages, housing and public services before I’d be tempted to vote Labour again.

Your free movement and customs Union is exactly what I voted against 5 years ago. Working on building sites I saw the way those policies, free movement in particular, was abused by importing cheap labour from poorer countries and I don’t wish to return to it. The only people that benefitted from that was the wealthy in my opinion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, horsefly said:

That theory wouldn’t work though would it. You could raise the minimum wage to £20 an hour, and you still wouldn’t have enough HGV drivers unless they paid substantially more than that. Why would you go to the hassle of learning to drive a lorry, being away from home, long hours, etc when you can earn the same working on a checkout?

Firstly, it's not a theory it's a policy. You completely miss the point that a minimum does not mean that workers in different areas can demand higher than minimum wage. By your own scenario HGV drivers might demand £30 an hour. It seems you only want some of the poorer paid to get higher wages while others (shopworkers etc) can go whistle. Nice!

Those industries are going to have to improve their wages and working conditions, simple as that. As somebody who is supposedly left leaning I must say I’m surprised you don’t seem happy that the workers may now finally see an improvement in their salaries now their bosses can no longer import cheap labour.

Moronic! I want all workers to be paid a fair living wage, not just a select few, which is your approach. A proper minimum wage would mean there is no possibility of "importing cheap foreign labour". But then that could have been achieved without all the disasters brexit has brought.

As a final note, import costs are increasing the world over at the moment, the US, Australia, NZ, Japan etc are all seeing their costs rise largely to the disruption and backlogs caused by Covid. Are you going to blame those countries increases on Brexit as well? 

Again, truly ignorant. Every major business and business organisation in the UK has provided evidence that brexit has caused them major economic damage and serious trading disruption. We all are very obviously aware that Covid has caused world-wide disruption, but you have to be possessed of a special kind of dogmatic ignorance not to recognise that brexit has added massively to that disruption in the unique case of the UK. Or should we believe you against the views of every business organisation in the country?

I see you still resort to childish insults whenever anybody offers a different point of view to yourself so I’ll leave you to it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

How many times has the likes of Horsefly said that cheap labour from Europe wasn’t responsible for suppressing wages among the working class? And now less than a year since leaving the EU we have shortages in those industries that were reliant on migrant labour and they’re complaining they may have to start paying higher wages to attract the staff they need?

You persist in making the same remarkably naive assertion. It has been government policy to maintain the minimum wage at such a low level. The government had the right and power to intervene to raise the minimum wage to a level that mitigated against the advantage of employing cheap foreign labour, thus the government was responsible for the suppression of wages not immigration. All of this could have been done without the need for a calamatous brexit.

Further, the UK was not a part of the Schengen agreement and therefore retained considerable powers to control the conditions of immigration from the EU. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I see you still resort to childish insults whenever anybody offers a different point of view to yourself so I’ll leave you to it. 

I merely respond to your poorly disguised attempts to throw around patronising insults. I prefer mine to be open and clear in response. Your views are economically and politically naive in the extreme, so perhaps you ought to think twice before trying to claim I support low wages when I have argued nothing of the sort. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, horsefly said:

"Meanwhile Boris Johnson and Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis both remain incredibly unpopular, with 79% and 77% respectively rating their performances as bad or awful."

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, horsefly said:

You persist in making the same remarkably naive assertion. It has been government policy to maintain the minimum wage at such a low level. The government had the right and power to intervene to raise the minimum wage to a level that mitigated against the advantage of employing cheap foreign labour, thus the government was responsible for the suppression of wages not immigration. All of this could have been done without the need for a calamatous brexit.

Further, the UK was not a part of the Schengen agreement and therefore retained considerable powers to control the conditions of immigration from the EU. 

Ok, I’ll bite one last time. On the day of the referendum, what power did the UK government have to remove an EU citizen who was working in the UK if they had broken no laws, even if they were working for minimum wage and undercutting local workforce?

Also your idea of lifting the minimum wage to the levels you propose sounds incredibly dangerous economically. You’d simply end up with almost all jobs paying the minimum wage, or with massive levels of inflation, a much weaker pound and more expensive imports.

Currently we’re short of workers in certain sectors such as HGV because they’ve become reliant on cheap labour from abroad. The domestic workforce isn’t interested in these positions because they can currently earn near enough the same money doing much easier jobs such as in supermarkets. If haulage companies want workers then they’re going to have to pay more money to attract them from other industries. Eventually once the haulage industry has poached enough workers, the supermarkets will struggle to attract staff and have to up their wages accordingly.

Whilst this is an incredibly simplified scenario, it’s the basics of how an economy is supposed to function. The higher wages means the more poorly run companies will fail, and their market share taken by a more productive competitor. This creative destruction increases the productivity of the nation as a whole which allows for the higher wages to be paid. It doesn’t always work perfectly, which is why unions and the minimum wage are essential to maintain a balance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...