The Positive Brexit Thread

[Well b back 3,186]

On 05/03/2021 at 08:57, paul moy said:

Just listened to a nurse on Five Live phone-in who says that she is grateful just to still have a job as many people will not have.  She also said that as a nurse her employment conditions are excellent and she was allowed six months off after her father died and gets 40 days leave a year. 

Refreshing to hear  that there are still some realistic people around that will accept a small pay rise when the rest of the country are simply worried about their employment futures and whether they will be earning any money at all.    

I can update you in the real world.

As you will know we have a friend working in ICU, the one you insulted on here a few months ago. She was a cancer nurse, but like many was transferred to ICU COVID wards and worked with little specialist knowledge at first, but like many have given everything and learnt as they went along. She is a lovely person who loved life who was known as a family person, her husband and children away from her patients were her world. For several months she lived in a poky little flat away from her loved family, so as to avoid bringing COVID home. When you speak to her on the phone, she rarely mentions her work, but some of what she has mentioned is horrific. I don’t think she is totally broken, but she is exhausted, and we don’t know what’s going on at the back of her head.

She feels the 1% is a total insult, of course they will be earning lots of extra money as there will be huge waiting lists and plenty of extra shifts, but would you work 12 hours per day 7 days a week after what they have been through ? They need a break. To this end she personally will be leaving the NHS and has accepted a job in 3 months time in a private hospital, where she will be paid more with far less responsibility. More worryingly she mentions her friends who are considering leaving nursing and some going abroad where they earn so much more ( yes in The EU as well ).

I know from personal experience that some of the nurses and doctors on their days off have volunteered on the vaccination sites. There is a practice manager on our vaccination site that is not authorised to allocate time to working on the vaccination sites, so he uses his annual leave when we have vaccine to come and volunteer, when this is used he will take unpaid leave.

I would like to think that at worst we will give our nurses and doctors a 2 week holiday and £500 to book a holiday. As an economist you can advise us with your knowledge, but I would think recruiting and training 10’s of thousands of new doctors and nurses will cost a lot more in the long run.

[horsefly 4,275]

Just now, paul moy said:

Pure economic commonsense, but obviously outside the intellectual scope of remoaners. 😎🤣 

Hilarious! Of course it would be commonsense to exclude yourself from the biggest market place in the western world. You really are totally illiterate when it comes to economics. How on earth did you come to think you could convince posters here that you are an economist when you write stuff that would fail a GCSE?

[Indy 3,283]

The saddest thing still we hear is the lack of backbone in the UK labour market! Reading the flower growers and farmers can’t recruit English workers tells me that we are far too generous in our benefit system and should cut that to pay for the NHS! Force those on benefits who are fit to work to work! No options. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Indy

[sonyc 5,488]

An article by Hutton today makes reference to Dad's Army.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/07/strong-on-rhetoric-weak-on-substance-so-much-for-the-vision-of-global-britain

So...who is Captain Mainwaring here? I guess Swindon might be Pike?

[Well b back 3,186]

3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

An article by Hutton today makes reference to Dad's Army.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/07/strong-on-rhetoric-weak-on-substance-so-much-for-the-vision-of-global-britain

So...who is Captain Mainwaring here? I guess Swindon might be Pike?

Sooner or later we will become a country of volunteers as the NHS vaccine roll out has shown. I reckon in the future a day out at the weekend will be taking your family to the farm to work for the day, to see how those nasty Europeans used to do it. As our younger son says you won’t be getting me working on no farm, you all voted to say we would, so you go and do it yourselves.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Can't believe people still read this MI5/6 mouthpiece, they are the paper version of the BiBi CE.

[horsefly 4,275]

6 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I can update you in the real world.

As you will know we have a friend working in ICU, the one you insulted on here a few months ago. She was a cancer nurse, but like many was transferred to ICU COVID wards and worked with little specialist knowledge at first, but like many have given everything and learnt as they went along. She is a lovely person who loved life who was known as a family person, her husband and children away from her patients were her world. For several months she lived in a poky little flat away from her loved family, so as to avoid bringing COVID home. When you speak to her on the phone, she rarely mentions her work, but some of what she has mentioned is horrific. I don’t think she is totally broken, but she is exhausted, and we don’t know what’s going on at the back of her head.

She feels the 1% is a total insult, of course they will be earning lots of extra money as there will be huge waiting lists and plenty of extra shifts, but would you work 12 hours per day 7 days a week after what they have been through ? They need a break. To this end she personally will be leaving the NHS and has accepted a job in 3 months time in a private hospital, where she will be paid more with far less responsibility. More worryingly she mentions her friends who are considering leaving nursing and some going abroad where they earn so much more ( yes in The EU as well ).

I know from personal experience that some of the nurses and doctors on their days off have volunteered on the vaccination sites. There is a practice manager on our vaccination site that is not authorised to allocate time to working on the vaccination sites, so he uses his annual leave when we have vaccine to come and volunteer, when this is used he will take unpaid leave.

I would like to think that at worst we will give our nurses and doctors a 2 week holiday and £500 to book a holiday. As an economist you can advise us with your knowledge, but I would think recruiting and training 10’s of thousands of new doctors and nurses will cost a lot more in the long run.

Thanks for that corrective Wbb. My partner has worked without a holiday break on the Covid front-line from day one and has often left the house at five in the morning to return at 9.30 in the evening. She also has volunteered to deliver vaccines (over1,200 hundred of them last saturday with her colleagues at a Norwich clinic). She is utterly exhausted and has no time for anything other than sleep when she is not at work. However, she is determined to soldier on having experienced the loss of her 50-year old brother to Covid, and knowing first-hand the damage this virus has wrecked. I can only wonder at the morality of those without any first-hand experience of what health workers have endured who are quick to judge them in this sour and mean-spirited manner.

[Well b back 3,186]

3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Thanks for that corrective Wbb. My partner has worked without a holiday break on the Covid front-line from day one and has often left the house at five in the morning to return at 9.30 in the evening. She also has volunteered to deliver vaccines (over1,200 hundred of them last saturday with her colleagues at a Norwich clinic). She is utterly exhausted and has no time for anything other than sleep when she is not at work. However, she is determined to soldier on having experienced the loss of her 50-year old brother to Covid, and knowing first-hand the damage this virus has wrecked. I can only wonder at the morality of those without any first-hand experience of what health workers have endured who are quick to judge them in this sour and mean-spirited manner.

Working alongside them at the vaccination site I work at has not just been an honour but has been humbling.

[sonyc 5,488]

8 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Sooner or later we will become a country of volunteers as the NHS vaccine roll out has shown. I reckon in the future a day out at the weekend will be taking your family to the farm to work for the day, to see how those nasty Europeans used to do it. As our younger son says you won’t be getting me working on no farm, you all voted to say we would, so you go and do it yourselves.

Well with the cuts in the last decade to public services, already we see significant parts of local society working just like that. The local clubs, small shops, the markets, the local library...so much more besides are run by volunteers when formerly they were managed by paid employees. Our local council has made swingeing cuts to many local services (pre covid too - which will only get worse post pandemic). Funders and other people giving public service (counselling for example) too are often people who give up their time freely and voluntarily (me included WBB). You do get to see how things work close up. Still, it won't stop the folk on here who believe in this new post Brexit 'global' Britain telling you that you know nothing and are ignorant and that you post nonsense! 

[horsefly 4,275]

I'm sure the majority of posters on here are very grateful for the volunteering of Wbb and Sonyc, and no doubt many others here who have made a splendid contribution to the successful roll-out of the vaccine. It would not have been possible without such community spirited effort. Seems society divides up into those people who see the world as an opportunity to help others, and those people who see it as an opportunity to exploit them for personal gain.

Edited March 7, 2021 by horsefly

[Herman 9,710]

35 minutes ago, Indy said:

The saddest thing still we hear is the lack of backbone in the UK labour market! Reading the flower growers and farmers can’t recruit English workers tells me that we are far too generous in our benefit system and should cut that to pay for the NHS! Force those on benefits who are fit to work to work! No options. 

As a lot of people are and will find out the benefits system is not generous at all and with Ian Dunkin Donut's "reforms" it has got worse.

The problems facing recruitment are many fold:

Poor pay (can be sustainable if you do long shifts.)

Seasonal so you may only get a few months guaranteed work.

Very hard work.

Location.

Local housing and facilities.

We have to refigure how we are going to do this. The easy option was to get foreign workers, who would earn far more than back home, put up with short term mass house share and do many hours knowing it would be only be short term. Trying to find Britons that would do this is going to be very hard.

[Barbe bleu 812]

27 minutes ago, horsefly said:

. Seems society divides up into those people who see the world as an opportunity to help others, and those people who see it as an opportunity to exploit them for personal gain.

I would say that 99% of us are capable of great selfishness and great altruism.

Its not that society is intrinsically divided, its that we are obsessed with dividing ourselves and then playing to the tribe we have been 'assigned'.

If we stop emphasising what sets us apart and instead highlight what brings us together we might get different outcomes. 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Barbe bleu

[Well b back 3,186]

Interesting @paul moy to see you laughing at the post I put up about our nurses, clearly wether you believe they are worth recognition or not to further insult them you are really are the scum of the earth.

Whilst these doctors and nurses have put their lives at risk with inappropriate PPE you simply mock them, well done.

[SwindonCanary 455]

4 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

Lord David Frost, who was plain David Frost when he negotiated the terrible Brexit deal should be ashamed that he such a bad job Boris Johnson made him a Lord (Johnson also made an IRA sympathiser a member of the House of Lords).

The EU is operating on the terms of the deal that Frost negotiated, now he has to do a lot of work blaming the people he negotiated with for the problems he created..

 

So why is it easier to move to goods to France yet they are making it difficult to move goods to Northern Ireland 

[Herman 9,710]

Oh FFS.

[A Load of Squit 5,116]

2 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

So why is it easier to move to goods to France yet they are making it difficult to move goods to Northern Ireland 

You should be asking the people who negotiated the deal. Start with Lord David Frost, he should know.

[horsefly 4,275]

6 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Interesting @paul moy to see you laughing at the post I put up about our nurses, clearly wether you believe they are worth recognition or not to further insult them you are really are the scum of the earth.

Whilst these doctors and nurses have put their lives at risk with inappropriate PPE you simply mock them, well done.

Spot on Wbb! Sometimes I almost feel sorry for individuals who are so disaffected and bitter that the only pleasure they find in the world is found at the expense of another person's misfortune or suffering. Imagine having a soul so corrupted that the only motivation you can find in life is to spout xenophobia, racism and misogyny. What a disgusting sight that must present when they stare into a mirror.

[SwindonCanary 455]

24 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

You should be asking the people who negotiated the deal. Start with Lord David Frost, he should know.

the deal was negotiated with trust on both sides the EU have broken that trust 

[SwindonCanary 455]

https://foxhole.news/2021/03/07/appalling-eu-accused-of-devastating-smaller-nations-by-hoovering-up-tuna-stocks-in-indian-ocean/

[horsefly 4,275]

4 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

the deal was negotiated with trust on both sides the EU have broken that trust 

I can only assume this is some very bad joke. Only one side is threatening to breach the agreement, only one side is threatening to break international law, only one side is imperiling the GFA. If you don't possess the intellectual capacity to find out which side it is then you really are as dumb as everyone describes you as.

[Indy 3,283]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

As a lot of people are and will find out the benefits system is not generous at all and with Ian Dunkin Donut's "reforms" it has got worse.

The problems facing recruitment are many fold:

Poor pay (can be sustainable if you do long shifts.)

Seasonal so you may only get a few months guaranteed work.

Very hard work.

Location.

Local housing and facilities.

We have to refigure how we are going to do this. The easy option was to get foreign workers, who would earn far more than back home, put up with short term mass house share and do many hours knowing it would be only be short term. Trying to find Britons that would do this is going to be very hard.

I don’t have an issue with the benefit system becoming more focused, there are too many loopholes in the old system which was far too generous, there must now be a move to encourage the UK mentality to do the work, not rely on cheap foreign workers to the job, that’s what most brexiteers voted they didn’t want foreigners here taking their jobs, so now we have to change things to support the areas of seasonal work which needs workers, British workers!

[Van wink 2,994]

2 hours ago, Well b back said:

I can update you in the real world.

As you will know we have a friend working in ICU, the one you insulted on here a few months ago. She was a cancer nurse, but like many was transferred to ICU COVID wards and worked with little specialist knowledge at first, but like many have given everything and learnt as they went along. She is a lovely person who loved life who was known as a family person, her husband and children away from her patients were her world. For several months she lived in a poky little flat away from her loved family, so as to avoid bringing COVID home. When you speak to her on the phone, she rarely mentions her work, but some of what she has mentioned is horrific. I don’t think she is totally broken, but she is exhausted, and we don’t know what’s going on at the back of her head.

She feels the 1% is a total insult, of course they will be earning lots of extra money as there will be huge waiting lists and plenty of extra shifts, but would you work 12 hours per day 7 days a week after what they have been through ? They need a break. To this end she personally will be leaving the NHS and has accepted a job in 3 months time in a private hospital, where she will be paid more with far less responsibility. More worryingly she mentions her friends who are considering leaving nursing and some going abroad where they earn so much more ( yes in The EU as well ).

I know from personal experience that some of the nurses and doctors on their days off have volunteered on the vaccination sites. There is a practice manager on our vaccination site that is not authorised to allocate time to working on the vaccination sites, so he uses his annual leave when we have vaccine to come and volunteer, when this is used he will take unpaid leave.

I would like to think that at worst we will give our nurses and doctors a 2 week holiday and £500 to book a holiday. As an economist you can advise us with your knowledge, but I would think recruiting and training 10’s of thousands of new doctors and nurses will cost a lot more in the long run.

I'm afraid there are quite a few nurses leaving the profession, certainly the NHS, it's not difficult to see why. The 1% offer is an insult, it really is after we all know, but dont fully understand, what nursing staff must have been through over the last 12 months, and will continue to go through. This isnt over yet, we can also look forward! to increased respiratory diseases of all kinds next winter plus Covid. We also have a massive backlog of elective work to catch up on, the excess strain is going to be there for years. We never needed the NHS more than we do now, a lot of it is run on goodwill which sadly has just been blown out of the window.

[horsefly 4,275]

50 minutes ago, Herman said:

Oh FFS.

Took the words from my mouth H!!!!

[SwindonCanary 455]

So why are the EU  saying they may have to put a boarder up at the crossing ?

[Well b back 3,186]

8 minutes ago, Van wink said:

I'm afraid there are quite a few nurses leaving the profession, certainly the NHS, it's not difficult to see why. The 1% offer is an insult, it really is after we all know, but dont fully understand, what nursing staff must have been through over the last 12 months, and will continue to go through. This isnt over yet, we can also look forward! to increased respiratory diseases of all kinds next winter plus Covid. We also have a massive backlog of elective work to catch up on, the excess strain is going to be there for years. We never needed the NHS more than we do now, a lot of it is run on goodwill which sadly has just been blown out of the window.

Indeed VW even if it is to keep the experienced ( workers if that is the right word ) on board for a couple of years to help with new trainees and to get the backlogs down. The people I know did it for the love of what they do, many were terrified. They weren’t expecting to be rewarded or praised, but of course they also did not know what they were about to witness and experience. They are ( again if this is the correct wording ) dead on their feet but they bought in to being there until the end, and they will see it through. The 1% seems a bazaar gesture and 1 of the defences seems to be, well we have many ready to take their place. They need a break, they need to get their heads back, and spend time with their families. 
So what would be the right thing to do ? As I mentioned a 4 week paid holiday I don’t know but what they have done is turn the NHS against them at the very time they will be needed most, otherwise many more will die from non COVID conditions created by the pandemic.

I do feel however over the coming months these people will be held in the highest of regard in the general population and be given special treatment where ever they go, I just feel 1% creates more problems than it solves.

[horsefly 4,275]

35 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

So why are the EU  saying they may have to put a boarder up at the crossing ?

Really! you need these issues explaining for the umpteenth time? WE chose to leave the EU and that necessitates customs checks between the two different markets. If the UK breaks the NI protocol a customs border has to be placed somewhere. Where do you suggest the border be placed if the UK breaks the agreement it signed off in January?

[Jools 584]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

I'm afraid there are quite a few nurses leaving the profession, certainly the NHS, it's not difficult to see why. The 1% offer is an insult, it really is after we all know, but dont fully understand, what nursing staff must have been through over the last 12 months, and will continue to go through. This isnt over yet, we can also look forward! to increased respiratory diseases of all kinds next winter plus Covid. We also have a massive backlog of elective work to catch up on, the excess strain is going to be there for years. We never needed the NHS more than we do now, a lot of it is run on goodwill which sadly has just been blown out of the window.

Nurses chose the jobs that they wanted to do, why should they be any different from other professions? If a person is busy in their work, it's part of the job -- As a chef thought-out the seventies & eighties I did 13 hour shifts 7 days a week -- It was hard, but one didn't instantly get a pay rise - One had to work ones way up.  

Nursing is quite well paid these days, but nowhere near as well paid as the 'Diversity and Inclusion' Managers. Do we really need to pay £72k salaries to people whose growing departments like to do polls and graphs and remind everyone not to be beastly to the minorities? Nay, we don't -- Address and get rid of the high paying non-jobs in the NHS in the first instance before increasing wages elsewhere.

[MooreMarriot 307]

" As a chef thought-out the seventies & eighties I did 13 hour shifts 7 days a week -- It was hard, but one didn't instantly get a pay rise "

 

 

[horsefly 4,275]

15 minutes ago, Jools said:

Nurses chose the jobs that they wanted to do, why should they be any different from other professions? If a person is busy in their work, it's part of the job -- As a chef thought-out the seventies & eighties I did 13 hour shifts 7 days a week -- It was hard, but one didn't instantly get a pay rise - One had to work ones way up.  

Nursing is quite well paid these days, but nowhere near as well paid as the 'Diversity and Inclusion' Managers. Do we really need to pay £72k salaries to people whose growing departments like to do polls and graphs and remind everyone not to be beastly to the minorities? Nay, we don't -- Address and get rid of the high paying non-jobs in the NHS in the first instance before increasing wages elsewhere.

Do tell us in which year of the 70s and 80s there was a 900 person death total among chefs as a result of turning up for work. Moron!

[Jools 584]

1 minute ago, horsefly said:

Do tell us in which year of the 70s and 80s there was a 900 person death total among chefs as a result of turning up for work. Moron!

Aye, excluding San Marino and Gibraltar, UK covid deaths are the second highest in the world per million 😵

Doesn't look like the lockdowns to help the NHS have worked very well does it, coco? 🤡

The nightingale hospitals never got used 🤔