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The Positive Brexit Thread

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7 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

And that was the threat Barnier gave if we did not agree a deal 

We have already agreed a deal.

if we then renege on that deal there will be consequenses, one of those is that we will have to prove that our food standards meet EU requirements, if we don't do that we cannot export food to the EU.

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8 minutes ago, SHRIMPER said:

Without a doubt SWINDO is the dumbest FVCKWIT on the planet..whichever the planet he lives on is.

without doubt Shrimper can't say a sentence without swearing !

 

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4 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

We have already agreed a deal.

if we then renege on that deal there will be consequenses, one of those is that we will have to prove that our food standards meet EU requirements, if we don't do that we cannot export food to the EU.

As the Government have already said our standards are far greater than the EU's 

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OH FFS!!. They want a guarantee that our standards will stay the same or better. If, as has been threatened, a lowering of our standards to be able to do a trade deal with the US then we won't be able to sell into the EU without proper checks.

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1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

Threatening to Blocking shipments to Northern Ireland

This is total nonsense and utterly despicable sophistry. The EU position is both simple and completely appropriate. The UK has withdrawn from the EU and single market thereby creating a de facto customs border between the EU (Ireland) and UK (Northern Ireland). Quite rightly the EU has to protect the integrity of that border from potential violations (smuggling etc). However, in order to preserve the peace so hard won by the Good Friday Agreement all the parties concerned understand the desperate need to avoid a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. That necessitates some form of checks  between GB and NI, as was admitted by Johnson's own advisors long ago. There really is no other option if a deal cannot be achieved to prevent this. This is a problem the UK has created and needs to resolve. But one thing is for sure, breaking an international treaty would be an utterly ruinous attempt to do this. First, it would inevitably lead to a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Second, It will make a trade deal between the UK and USA impossible to achieve (neither Republicans nor Democrats  will jeopardize their Irish vote). Third, our international reputation will be in tatters, and will compromise all our future dealings with other nations; political, economic or otherwise.  The behaviour of this government is breathtakingly crass, immoral and simply illegal. It is no wonder that many of the more cerebral and astute Tory MPs are outraged by the Government's proposal.

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Just now, SwindonCanary said:

Well, why did Barnier have to bring it up in trade talks 

Are you being serious? Are you really asking why Barnier would bring  up the issue of border controls involving the transport of goods between two separate trading areas in trade talks? Perhaps you would like to take that back rather than look like an utter fool

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23 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Have a listen to Talk radio you will hear what's wrong 

You've said some very stupid stuff on here, not only today but most days, this one will be in your top ten.

 

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24 minutes ago, horsefly said:

This is total nonsense and utterly despicable sophistry. The EU position is both simple and completely appropriate. The UK has withdrawn from the EU and single market thereby creating a de facto customs border between the EU (Ireland) and UK (Northern Ireland). Quite rightly the EU has to protect the integrity of that border from potential violations (smuggling etc). However, in order to preserve the peace so hard won by the Good Friday Agreement all the parties concerned understand the desperate need to avoid a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. That necessitates some form of checks  between GB and NI, as was admitted by Johnson's own advisors long ago. There really is no other option if a deal cannot be achieved to prevent this. This is a problem the UK has created and needs to resolve. But one thing is for sure, breaking an international treaty would be an utterly ruinous attempt to do this. First, it would inevitably lead to a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Second, It will make a trade deal between the UK and USA impossible to achieve (neither Republicans nor Democrats  will jeopardize their Irish vote). Third, our international reputation will be in tatters, and will compromise all our future dealings with other nations; political, economic or otherwise.  The behaviour of this government is breathtakingly crass, immoral and simply illegal. It is no wonder that many of the more cerebral and astute Tory MPs are outraged by the Government's proposal.

This is a very clear, well articulated post, many thanks. It is such a vitally important issue. MPs that vote for the breaking of the WA will potentially have blood on their hands. The healing process that took huge political capital can unravel.

It appears this government actually revels in a form of macho posturing. It is a government that lacks such depth. Big decisions required to actually "get Brexit done" but very small minds. They just cannot grasp the enormity of their actions. We might well end up being Little England. How pathetic will that be?

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3 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Barnier threatened them with it it's not just part of the agreement. 

You really need to learn to read a bit more widely, and try something with a bit more sophistication. The EU has not threatened to blockade anyone (please do cite the relevant document if I'm wrong here). They have simply pointed out that to preserve the Good Friday Agreement and prevent a hard border between Ireland and Northern Island checks will have to be made on goods before they reach NI, unless a trade agreement is reached between the EU and UK. That much is obvious to anyone with even the most rudimentary understanding of trading between different market areas. It is the UK that is threatening to renege on the international treaty they themselves signed in January (claiming at the time that it was a  a wonderful deal). 

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6 minutes ago, sonyc said:

This is a very clear, well articulated post, many thanks. It is such a vitally important issue. MPs that vote for the breaking of the WA will potentially have blood on their hands. The healing process that took huge political capital can unravel.

It appears this government actually revels in a form of macho posturing. It is a government that lacks such depth. Big decisions required to actually "get Brexit done" but very small minds. They just cannot grasp the enormity of their actions. We might well end up being Little England. How pathetic will that be?

thanks mate!

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image.png.9bbbe8891f3c85e29be02101110c0658.png

In a Tweet worded to rile both Tory Rebels and Number 10, Nigel Farage has announced that the Brexit Party is revving back into gear and will campaign against MPs who vote against the Internal Market Bill. Or in his words “vote for Brexit in Name Only”…

The withdrawal agreement as it stands is not the Brexit we fought for. Boris misled us but is now trying to make amends. MPs who vote for Brexit in name only will see campaigns launched against them in their seats.

It’s worth remembering that without Nigel winning the European Elections, it’s unlikely that Boris would have ever become Prime Minister. He’s changed the course of UK politics twice. Now he’s back… 😎👍

UPDATE: Nigel Farage tells Guido: “The Brexit Party still has a large and engaged database. We could fire up ground campaigns against these MPs very quickly” 👍

 

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3 minutes ago, Jools said:

image.png.9bbbe8891f3c85e29be02101110c0658.png

In a Tweet worded to rile both Tory Rebels and Number 10, Nigel Farage has announced that the Brexit Party is revving back into gear and will campaign against MPs who vote against the Internal Market Bill. Or in his words “vote for Brexit in Name Only”…

The withdrawal agreement as it stands is not the Brexit we fought for. Boris misled us but is now trying to make amends. MPs who vote for Brexit in name only will see campaigns launched against them in their seats.

It’s worth remembering that without Nigel winning the European Elections, it’s unlikely that Boris would have ever become Prime Minister. He’s changed the course of UK politics twice. Now he’s back… 😎👍

UPDATE: Nigel Farage tells Guido: “The Brexit Party still has a large and engaged database. We could fire up ground campaigns against these MPs very quickly” 👍

 

Mercutio's response to Tybalt and Romeo is most appropriate here. If you don't know what it is I suggest expanding your reading beyond the Sun and Daily Mail

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58 minutes ago, horsefly said:

This is total nonsense and utterly despicable sophistry. The EU position is both simple and completely appropriate. The UK has withdrawn from the EU and single market thereby creating a de facto customs border between the EU (Ireland) and UK (Northern Ireland). Quite rightly the EU has to protect the integrity of that border from potential violations (smuggling etc). However, in order to preserve the peace so hard won by the Good Friday Agreement all the parties concerned understand the desperate need to avoid a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. That necessitates some form of checks  between GB and NI, as was admitted by Johnson's own advisors long ago. There really is no other option if a deal cannot be achieved to prevent this. This is a problem the UK has created and needs to resolve. But one thing is for sure, breaking an international treaty would be an utterly ruinous attempt to do this. First, it would inevitably lead to a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Second, It will make a trade deal between the UK and USA impossible to achieve (neither Republicans nor Democrats  will jeopardize their Irish vote). Third, our international reputation will be in tatters, and will compromise all our future dealings with other nations; political, economic or otherwise.  The behaviour of this government is breathtakingly crass, immoral and simply illegal. It is no wonder that many of the more cerebral and astute Tory MPs are outraged by the Government's proposal.

Yes. And a border with serious (ie time-consuming and expensive) checks became the likeliest outcome once May ruled out both  staying in the single market and being in a customs union.

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2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Mercutio's response to Tybalt and Romeo is most appropriate here. If you don't know what it is I suggest expanding your reading beyond the Sun and Daily Mail

I don't need tabloid newspapers to know Sir Nigel of Farage was right, yet again, about the WA --- Right from the beginning he said it was a straitjacket/trap that the EU would use to control us after Brexit and so it has proven to be.

Boris has an 80 seat majority, so he will get his legislation through, but it's good Sir Nigel and the Brexit Party are ready to remind the cons of their manifesto which reads:

"This future relationship will be one that allows us to:

Take back control of our laws.

Take back control of our money.

Control our own trade policy.

Introduce an Australian-style points- based immigration system.

Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment.

Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters"

 


👍

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37 minutes ago, sonyc said:

This is a very clear, well articulated post, many thanks. It is such a vitally important issue. MPs that vote for the breaking of the WA will potentially have blood on their hands. The healing process that took huge political capital can unravel.

It appears this government actually revels in a form of macho posturing. It is a government that lacks such depth. Big decisions required to actually "get Brexit done" but very small minds. They just cannot grasp the enormity of their actions. We might well end up being Little England. How pathetic will that be?

There is always a phrase I liked describing WW1 generals which is peculiarly appropriate to the 'Brexiteers' and the consequences for their foot soldiers!

"Big hand little map."

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12 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Yes. And a border with serious (ie time-consuming and expensive) checks became the likeliest outcome once May ruled out both  staying in the single market and being in a customs union.

 

Top legal opinion: It’s the EU which has broken international law, not the UK

For months the EU has been in material breach of its obligations under the Withdrawal Treaty

shredded.jpg

The EU pays scant regard to its own laws, let alone its international obligations

Facts4EU reveals the top legal advice which the UK Government has ignored

From the Editor

The following Brexit Facts4EU.Org article and report is important. The Government's actions this week have seriously damaged the reputation of the United Kingdom - at home and internationally. It is of course unsurprising that the EU have immediately started exploiting this for their own purposes. More worrying are the statements from further afield, including those from senior members of the US Congress.

The Government's handling of this is catastrophic and must be addressed urgently

It is essential - in our view and that of other serious Brexit organisations - that the Government now listen to the legal advice which they have had for months. They must immediately explain that action is being taken because the EU is in serious and material default of its obligations under the Withdrawal Treaty. It is the EU which is in breach, not the United Kingdom.

We are aware of meetings which will take place in Westminster in the coming days. We urge all MPs, and the Government, to consider the facts and the arguments carefully. An urgent and substantial refinement of the Government's message is required forthwith. We propose the following:

"The EU has been in default of its obligations under the Withdrawal Treaty since it was signed and has in effect broken international law.

"The UK Government is left with no choice but to repudiate the Withdrawal Treaty and pass legislation to mitigate the effect of the EU's breaches, for the sake of the citizens of the UK and the EU27, and to uphold the principles of international law."

On Tuesday in Parliament, during a debate on an urgent question, a Government Minister who voted Remain in the EU Referendum made an extraordinary statement.

 

Q: Sir Robert Neill MP (Bromley and Chislehurst, Conservative)

“…will he assure us that nothing that is proposed in this legislation does, or potentially might, breach international legal obligations or international legal arrangements that we have entered into?”

A: The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Rt Hon Brandon Lewis MP)

“I would say to my hon. Friend that yes, this does break international law in a very specific and limited way. We are taking the power to disapply the EU law concept of direct effect, required by article 4, in certain very tightly defined circumstances. There are clear precedents of this for the UK and, indeed, other countries needing to consider their international obligations as circumstances change. I say to hon. Members here, many of whom would have been in this House when we passed the Finance Act 2013, that that Act contains an example of treaty override. It contains provisions that expressly disapply international tax treaties to the extent that these conflict with the general anti-abuse rule…”

Hansard, 08 Sept 2020, Volume 679

Brexit Facts4EU.Org Summary

Legal arguments showing how the EU has broken its own treaty with the UK

  • Essential condition of participating in Withdrawal Agreement (WA) : to secure a free trade agreement (FTA)
  • The EU has been acting in breach of a material term of the WA by denying the UK an FTA
  • The EU has attempted to impose wholly unreasonable restrictions on the UK which no other country would accept
  • The treaty was therefore entered into by the UK on a false premise from the EU
  • The EU has breached its legal obligation to act in good faith
  • The WA breaks the terms of the Good Friday Agreement
  • The WA is in breach of the ECHR principle of the right to vote
  • The WA is in breach of the UN Charter's principle of “self-determination”, its most important tenet
  • The UK Government must now pass an Act of Parliament superseding and revoking the WA

It’s the EU which has already breached the terms of the Withdrawal Treaty

On 11 July 2020 Brexit Facts4EU.Org reviewed and published the legal arguments contained in a 102-page paper which was presented to Government. The arguments were written by some of the country’s top lawyers experienced in these matters, such as Martin Howe QC, Chairman of Lawyers for Britain, and Barnabas Reynolds, a Partner at Shearman and Sterling, amongst other experienced lawyers in EU matters.

Their conclusions were stark.

  1. The UK as a state retains its sovereign right to withdrawal from the EU, which is an international organisation
  2. When the UK exercised its right to leave, it participated in the WA process on the basis of an essential condition: agreement on a future permanent arrangement with the EU that enshrines UK sovereignty and secures an FTA
  3. The Protocol and other aspects of the WA are incompatible with the agreement intended for the end of 2020
  4. The EU has been acting in breach of a material term of the WA, meaning that the treaty was entered into on a false premise
  5. The Protocol is in breach of the ECHR principle of the right to vote
  6. The UK must exercise its right to suspend and terminate the WA obligations
  7. The UK must subsequently pass an Act of Parliament superseding the WA, in line with Parliamentary Sovereignty under Section 38 of the Withdrawal Agreement Act 2020

The full legal argument for tearing up the WA and PD

The detail of the legal arguments are best read in full in the CBP paper [PDF], starting on page 68. Of necessity this Brexit Facts4EU.Org article can only present a summary together with key points from the document.

Right: Barnabas Reynolds, Partner at Shearman and Sterling, and one of the report's authors

barney_reynolds.jpg

Below we present key excerpts from the report

“As can be seen, the key elements of the Withdrawal Agreement including the Northern Ireland Protocol are incompatible with UK sovereignty if continued into the future and should operate merely as a steppingstone to an end of year long-term relationship between the UK and the EU.

“The EU has seriously breached the agreement, even as it stands, since it has been structurally unable to engage in meaningful negotiations (for what is now the majority of the intended negotiation period) towards a sovereign outcome for the UK.

“The UK therefore needs to prevail on the EU to agree to remove the sovereignty-incompliant elements of the WA and the Protocol or be ready to repudiate the arrangement.”

If the EU refuses a mutually beneficial future arrangement, then the UK should:

  1. Treat the Withdrawal Agreement and Protocol as no longer having any legal force
  2. Implement Alternative Arrangements for the North-South border on the Island of Ireland, indicating to the EU that the Government is prepared to negotiate Mutual Enforcement instead, if preferred, from the end of 2020
  3. Cease to make payments to the EU under its provisions
  4. Treat EU citizens resident in the UK unilaterally in a manner consistent with the UK’s legal framework

It should be noted that since the above report was written the EU has continued to act in bad faith. It is our understanding that the report's authors now see little alternative but to move to revoke the Withdrawal Treaty unless there is a very rapid and fundamental shift in EU policy.

Big problem for the EU: Their signing of the Withdrawal Treaty committed them to the following:

“The Union and the United Kingdom shall use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration of 17 October 2019 and to conduct the relevant procedures for the ratification or conclusion of those agreements, with a view to ensuring that those agreements apply, to the extent possible, as from the end of the transition period.”

- Article 184

Observations

 

The statement of Government Minister Brandon Lewis - former close ally of Theresa May - on Tuesday in Parliament is at odds with the legal advice above. We can only guess at the reasons for this catastrophic error which has damaged the reputation of the United Kingdom at home and around the world - totally unnecessarily.

It has been our considered opinion since we started researching five years ago that the EU would never act in good faith in negotiating a sensible trade deal with the United Kingdom.

On the morning of the 24th June 2016 when the result of the UK's EU Referendum was announced, the then President of the EU Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, proclaimed "This will not be an amicable divorce." It was obvious from that moment on that the agenda of the unelected EU superstate-fanatics in Brussels would be to punish the British for voting to leave, no matter what. We have stated this so many times we are almost embarrassed now to repeat it, but we must.

We submit that the EU have not only failed to act expeditiously, but have placed every conceivable obstacle in the way of any normal agreement being reached. As such, they have not acted in good faith and we consider them to be in serious and irredeemable material breach of their obligations. The United Kingdom Government is therefore entitled to consider that the EU have de facto reneged on the Treaty they signed and that the EU are in default.

This is the message the Government should be promulgating at home and internationally, not the nonsense we heard in the Commons on Tuesday.

The EU has broken the terms of the Agreement it drafted and signed

The EU still has the option of offering the UK a 'Canada+++' agreement, which EU Council President Donald Tusk and other EU figures proffered in 2018. Since the EU does not seem interested in a genuine trade deal with the United Kingdom along the lines of trade deals they have agreed with other countries, we must assume that all of their negotiations with the UK have been conducted in bad faith.

Mr Johnson's Government must now proceed on the basis that the EU has broken international law and that the Withdrawal Agreement has no validity.

Most importantly it must get this message out there now.

Finally, we must say to the Remainer rump of holier-than-thou politicians, exemplified by Theresa May in Parliament on Tuesday, that had it not been for their crass incompetence and wilful obstruction of the democratically-expressed will of the British people to leave the EU, we would not be having to clear up their mess now.

theresa_may_9.jpg

 

 

[ Sources: Hansard | The lawyers from the CBP | EU Commission ] Politicians, journalists and Pink'Un Remainiacs 🤪 can contact us for details, as ever.

Brexit Facts4EU.Org, Thur 10 Sept 2020

 

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Nigel Farage is full of **** and anybody that still takes him seriously is a fool. He's moved the goalposts at regular intervals just to stay relevant. Nothing would be good for him because any brexit will mean he is completely redundant. Even a crash out with nothing will be wrong because of some reason he would find at the time.

This is where he and his Leave gang started, and if you read the leaflet they initially put out you could happily think they were a sensible and serious organisation rather than the fascistic, dog whistling irrelevances they now are.

https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/11/08/when-he-supported-norway-the-brexit-policy-farage-would-rath

"Leaving the EU will have significant geopolitical and economic consequences. But we believe it is unrealistic to expect a clean break, immediately unravelling forty years of integrationin a single step. Following a vote in a referendum and an Article 50 notification, therefore, we have set out a process of staged separation and recovery."

https://web.archive.org/web/20160109172536/http://www.eureferendum.com:80/documents/flexcit.pdf

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1 hour ago, Jools said:

In a Tweet worded to rile both Tory Rebels and Number 10, Nigel Farage has announced that the Brexit Party is revving back into gear and will campaign against MPs who vote against the Internal Market Bill. Or in his words “vote for Brexit in Name Only”…

The withdrawal agreement as it stands is not the Brexit we fought for. Boris misled us but is now trying to make amends. MPs who vote for Brexit in name only will see campaigns launched against them in their seats.

It’s worth remembering that without Nigel winning the European Elections, it’s unlikely that Boris would have ever become Prime Minister.

More comedy gold, Farage stood down his candidates to get Johnson elected to enact this WA that he now thinks is so terrible. Now irrelevent, desparately trying to get some attention. Come on Nigel show us what you have got.

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41 minutes ago, Herman said:

Nigel Farage is full of **** and anybody that still takes him seriously is a fool. He's moved the goalposts at regular intervals just to stay relevant. Nothing would be good for him because any brexit will mean he is completely redundant. Even a crash out with nothing will be wrong because of some reason he would find at the time.

This is where he and his Leave gang started, and if you read the leaflet they initially put out you could happily think they were a sensible and serious organisation rather than the fascistic, dog whistling irrelevances they now are.

https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/11/08/when-he-supported-norway-the-brexit-policy-farage-would-rath

"Leaving the EU will have significant geopolitical and economic consequences. But we believe it is unrealistic to expect a clean break, immediately unravelling forty years of integrationin a single step. Following a vote in a referendum and an Article 50 notification, therefore, we have set out a process of staged separation and recovery."

https://web.archive.org/web/20160109172536/http://www.eureferendum.com:80/documents/flexcit.pdf

As you know, Herminge, the above was said before the EU decided to breach the Withdrawal Treaty and break international law.

The whole Treaty should be completely repudiated based on the EU not acting in good faith and being an obstacle to trade...

Boris and the cons are toast otherwise.

Edited by Jools

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3 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

without doubt Shrimper can't say a sentence without swearing !

 

Does it offend your sensitivity you feeble ship steward SWINDO? Lot of real men in port when you were away to look after the ladies, wasn't there  "mouse brain."

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Swindon confirms Boris is leaving it to others to clean up his mess, and Jools confirms Farage is threatening retribution again. Meanwhile what the Internal Market legislation is really about Is consolidating power in the Cabinet - Ministers able to pass rules on a whim without legal or Parliamentary constraints. Fascism 101 there. 

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6 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Swindon confirms Boris is leaving it to others to clean up his mess, and Jools confirms Farage is threatening retribution again. Meanwhile what the Internal Market legislation is really about Is consolidating power in the Cabinet - Ministers able to pass rules on a whim without legal or Parliamentary constraints. Fascism 101 there. 

Umberto Eco outlined 14 characteristics of fascism and perhaps most can be ticked?

 

IMG_20200831_183313.jpg

IMG_20200831_183331.jpg

Edited by sonyc
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The government is extremely confident that the EU is working in good faith and shares our desire to avoid these serious consequences. - NI Select Committee

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3 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

 

Big Chuff you complete simpleton, a deal worth 0.07% of GDP that largely replicates the EU deal with the addition of the ability to sell Stilton to a nation that is 90% lactose intolerant

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