The Positive Brexit Thread

[Bill 1,788]

44 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Far more likely is that the government have just realized they haven't enough customs staff and associated infrastructure plus updates to 'CHIEF' to cope - due as ever with this lot to lack of planning and fantasy economics.

No, they have known this right from the start........years back, in fact. That’s why Johnson was lying through his teeth with 'get it done'.

Even without the virus and everything else in the governments favour it was beyond ant logistical ability to have the ports ready, structurally. And I would venture that recruiting and training 50,000 extra customs staff was never a 'goer' - unless you were to have Eu staff...who would have to go home (back across the channel) every night 🙄

And to spew out this idiotic contradiction "as we take back control of our laws and our borders at the end of this year, we will take a pragmatic and flexible approach" suggests Gove still imagines he is only speaking to slow witted brexiteers. As it allows for all manner of possibilities - and certainly points to the UK still being in the Customs Union, at the minimum And as the UK will be still paying into the EU for years to come, but with no say, where now Rees-Mogg's comments about a vassal state

And even those with the brain of a small rodent should grasp that another U-turn of the customs, along with chlorinated chicken and a border down the Irish Sea would suggest which way this is heading.

 

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

29 minutes ago, Bill said:

No, they have known this right from the start........years back, in fact. That’s why Johnson was lying through his teeth with 'get it done'.

Even without the virus and everything else in the governments favour it was beyond ant logistical ability to have the ports ready, structurally. And I would venture that recruiting and training 50,000 extra customs staff was never a 'goer' - unless you were to have Eu staff...who would have to go home (back across the channel) every night 🙄

And to spew out this idiotic contradiction "as we take back control of our laws and our borders at the end of this year, we will take a pragmatic and flexible approach" suggests Gove still imagines he is only speaking to slow witted brexiteers. As it allows for all manner of possibilities - and certainly points to the UK still being in the Customs Union, at the minimum And as the UK will be still paying into the EU for years to come, but with no say, where now Rees-Mogg's comments about a vassal state

And even those with the brain of a small rodent should grasp that another U-turn of the customs, along with chlorinated chicken and a border down the Irish Sea would suggest which way this is heading.

 

Agreed - I was trying to be kind (or sarcastic) that the have only just realized. It's been obvious for about 4 years to anybody rational!

[BigFish 1,986]

Looking increasingly that instead of taking back control of our borders the approach will be to leave them wide open.

Doesn't help going the other way because we can be pretty certain the EU will control their's.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

yes lets prepare an open border for a potential Chinese UK migration swelling ours by a few million.. Apparently Taiwan is wooing them as well but they have not got experience with migration, and China buzzing them in the skies above.

Much better they migrate here, I'm sure tweety pie will help them along a little.

[Herman 9,713]

Michael Gove's piracy charter. 

[Bill 1,788]

On 10/06/2020 at 15:58, Bill said:

Before that, we return to the task of finding and training 50,000 new customs staff. Devising a system which will have to work from day one - and build the physical infrastructure to handle the increased delay. At the moment no port has said it has the space.

"It comes amid warnings of a shortfall in customs agents to deal with the huge increase in bureaucracy, and tight deadlines for building the new border infrastructure required.".... well well well 🤔

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-border-controls-single-market-latest-a9562961.html

So if I knew this, as with previous warnings before my above post - then the government certainly did. And it is now going so far as to add

"Officials say they were working on the basis that full controls would be in place for July but that they could be delayed even longer if there is significant disruption."

So who decides what is 'significant disruption' ?

And there is also the little matter of whether those tariffs that are to be collected later will fall under WTO rules, as that would require a universal application right across the board, in respect of other countries.

So whatever the UK try to  offer the EU in regard to getting a reciprocal 'good deal' would apply to the rest. So as far as negotiating any trade deal with the UK it will be a case of, we've already got the 'good deal' care of the WTO, and there's far call the UK can do about it.

I wonder when that little 'problem' will be discovered, and we get yet another U-turn on this 'oven ready' deal ?

[Bill 1,788]

"Businesses importing goods from Europe will be asked to keep records from 1 January next year of what tariffs they need to pay, but will not be asked to pay them until July."

That bit puzzles me

What tariffs ? As I thought the whole idea was that there would be no tariffs....only a free trade deal.

Have Gove and co given up already ?

Or did they know before the previous election there would not be a free deal... and there would a border down the Irish Sea, chlorinated chicken etc ?

Of course they did, as I will repeat that if I knew this then certainly did ie they lied through their teeth to win the election

That being done by using Cummings and his number crunching nerds to tell the Tories which slogans worked best with the gormless. That done being determined by the algorithms of social media. And once found, stick to it as did the Nazis and as seen in Animal Farm. Get it done - in this case. As most will recall Johnson ducked out of interviews... and even hid in a fridge at one point

The question now is how will the numpties react when it finally dawns on them that they have been had ?

Ask for their votes back. ? Demand the 60,000 corpses be dug up ?

Take to the streets to protest? I would suggest that may will be the most likely result - and protests that will have far wider repercussions that just getting rid of this fat lying incompetent

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

I'm pretty sure of one thing now.

There won't be any statues to the current lot,  or the boomers either.

They'll be the generation and Brexit politicians that will be air-brushed right out of British history as an embarrassment, an aberration - same as with the Chinese with their 'Gang of Four'.

As the old Chinese curse goes "May you live in interesting times!"

[Herman 9,713]

Like the Iraq war, hardly anyone will be admitting they supported Brexit in a few years time. Or even months... 

[Bill 1,788]

14 minutes ago, Herman said:

Like the Iraq war, hardly anyone will be admitting they supported Brexit in a few years time. Or even months... 

most will be dead

[Herman 9,713]

Most are from the neck up.😀

[A Load of Squit 5,128]

 

George Osborne to step down as Evening Standard editor to be replaced by Samantha Camerons sister.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

37 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I'm pretty sure of one thing now.

There won't be any statues to the current lot,  or the boomers either.

They'll be the generation and Brexit politicians that will be air-brushed right out of British history as an embarrassment, an aberration - same as with the Chinese with their 'Gang of Four'.

As the old Chinese curse goes "May you live in interesting times!"

What fun. Another good kicking here for the baby boomers. We should file for protected status, like some threatened species. Obviously Brexit must be our fault, and we are happy to bear the blame, especially if it helps other generations let themselves believe they played no part in this catastrophe...

But it seems a shame that the other aspects of the boomer generation get airbrushed as well. Such as its emphasis on the environment, with the growth of green politics, or the women's movement, the practical effects of which can be seen with the breaking of the glass ceiling in The City and many other previously male-dominated sectors, or the anti-war protests, which played a part in the UK staying out of Vietnam, or the drive against racism or against colonialism, or in the arts, with young turks letting air into the smugly stuffy world of the British theatre, or in popular music, producing the greatest decade there ever was or ever will be.

[Surfer 1,547]

On 11/06/2020 at 02:11, SwindonCanary said:

Sky News reports that figures within the government remain confident of a last minute breakthrough. The UK crashing out of the EU without a deal is in the interest of nobody. 

Writing in the Daily Telegraph, Patrick Geddis suggests that even if we leave with a no deal Brexit it won't be long before the UK seeks to strike a trade deal with the EU. Crashing out will not be a permanent position.

Who are these “figures within the government”

When will an actual Officer of the Government come to Parliament to put their intent on the record. This “sources say” is just BS. 
 

Then as we all know, negotiating to re-enter an agreement after you crashed out is sooo much easier the before you did ... nope; you will get crushed. 
 

So once again who is this being done for ? 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Surfer

[sonyc 5,491]

34 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

What fun. Another good kicking here for the baby boomers. We should file for protected status, like some threatened species. Obviously Brexit must be our fault, and we are happy to bear the blame, especially if it helps other generations let themselves believe they played no part in this catastrophe...

But it seems a shame that the other aspects of the boomer generation get airbrushed as well. Such as its emphasis on the environment, with the growth of green politics, or the women's movement, the practical effects of which can be seen with the breaking of the glass ceiling in The City and many other previously male-dominated sectors, or the anti-war protests, which played a part in the UK staying out of Vietnam, or the drive against racism or against colonialism, or in the arts, with young turks letting air into the smugly stuffy world of the British theatre, or in popular music, producing the greatest decade there ever was or ever will be.

A bit touchy Purple? Of course you're correct about some of the more positive aspects of the boomer generation (I count, just, as one) but I'm afraid there was a significant majority of an older complement of voters returning the Brexit vote. And, it will be future generations of younger people paying for it. It's one of a few remaining (I believe, realistic) hopes of mine that the younger generation will effect as big a liberalising change as the best of the boomers. 

My other half used to moan (during the latter Brexit vote stages)  that older folk ought not to get a vote after a 'certain' age (to be debated)...because they would not be around to see the effect of their vote. It was a deliberately provocative statement of course and she was not entirely serious. 

Now, I realise too, that maybe your post was perhaps half tongue in cheek. Yet, we boomers are to blame for lots of things. We just need to be open minded enough to accept it.

Thankfully (my view of course), you're an example of someone who voted against Brexit. It's only in the last 8 years that I got a real insight into the EC through my work, with several visits to Brussels and attending events and speaking with lots of people from many countries. It was so educational for me and actually life affirming. Not to be part of this wider community or a member, let alone psychologically, is one of the biggest regrets in my life, such is the strength of my feeling. Not to be part of a big community of folk, all with different ideas and to hear their thoughts on societal and economic change, let alone their  idealism is truly depressing. It's such a loss.

I'm going on now, time to stfu.

 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

What fun. Another good kicking here for the baby boomers. We should file for protected status, like some threatened species. Obviously Brexit must be our fault, and we are happy to bear the blame, especially if it helps other generations let themselves believe they played no part in this catastrophe...

But it seems a shame that the other aspects of the boomer generation get airbrushed as well. Such as its emphasis on the environment, with the growth of green politics, or the women's movement, the practical effects of which can be seen with the breaking of the glass ceiling in The City and many other previously male-dominated sectors, or the anti-war protests, which played a part in the UK staying out of Vietnam, or the drive against racism or against colonialism, or in the arts, with young turks letting air into the smugly stuffy world of the British theatre, or in popular music, producing the greatest decade there ever was or ever will be.

 

13 minutes ago, sonyc said:

A bit touchy Purple? Of course you're correct about some of the more positive aspects of the boomer generation (I count, just, as one) but I'm afraid there was a significant majority of an older complement of voters returning the Brexit vote. And, it will be future generations of younger people paying for it. It's one of a few remaining (I believe, realistic) hopes of mine that the younger generation will effect as big a liberalising change as the best of the boomers. 

My other half used to moan (during the latter Brexit vote stages)  that older folk ought not to get a vote after a 'certain' age (to be debated)...because they would not be around to see the effect of their vote. It was a deliberately provocative statement of course and she was not entirely serious. 

Now, I realise too, that maybe your post was perhaps half tongue in cheek. Yet, we boomers are to blame for lots of things. We just need to be open minded enough to accept it.

Thankfully (my view of course), you're an example of someone who voted against Brexit. It's only in the last 8 years that I got a real insight into the EC through my work, with several visits to Brussels and attending events and speaking with lots of people from many countries. It was so educational for me and actually life affirming. Not to be part of this wider community or a member, let alone psychologically, is one of the biggest regrets in my life, such is the strength of my feeling. Not to be part of a big community of folk, all with different ideas and to hear their thoughts on societal and economic change, let alone their  idealism is truly depressing. It's such a loss.

I'm going on now, time to stfu.

 

 

 

I'm a boomer too Purple - but as SonyC infers it will be what our generation will be 'remembered' or best forgotten for - same  as our mothers and fathers will be WW2 generation . Nothing else.

[SwindonCanary 455]

Today's the day that it was formally told to the EU that there would be no extension to Brexit. No going back.  Boris is going to talk to them to discus the time table about talks from here (makes you wonder what's been going on up till now)

[Bill 1,788]

Not directly brexit related, but I imagine a fair few will be in for a shock on Monday, onwards....

The Furlough scheme changes on the 1st August, whereby employers have to start paying NI and pension contributions.Those who have not been paying the lost 20% will not likely be able, or want, to pay those costs. So to make staff redundant they have to give 45 days consultation period ie 15th onwards. Which is why the warning that the government intend not to extend te transition period (they still can)was given on the last day before this comes into force.

A warning that if the EU doesn't buy the bluff you would be better cutting your losses (staff) asap. As work ,dependant upon exports, will be drastically cut - tariffs on parts etc will make assembly here unviable financially. And with a quarter of manufacturers stating that they intend to lay staff off over the next 6 months the unemployed rate will continue to rise.

These recent announcements also took into account that the last date for furloughing staff was 10th June. Gove's 'you need to talk us out of suicide' guff has undoubtedly sent shock waves throughout business. If the EU doesn't stop us we will drive over the cliff. Though cynics might suggest it is more Gove trying to oust Johnson than any practical intent.

As well as the burden of increased tariffs, the huge costs of adhering to EU standards will weigh heavily - from customs declarations to export health certificates. Any wonder the CBI has said that it will require an extra 4 million extra forms per week, and 50,000 extra customs employees to process that lot.

Were this to happen then the cost would be covered by lower wages, higher prices or a combination of the two. And with farming you cannot simply switch animal rearing off as with factory machinery. With 40% tariffs on some meat products being applied where does that leave UK farmers. Go ahead over the next six months and face a glut of unsold meat that cannot be exported outside of the UK, because trade deals do not exist so would be hit by high tariffs, or flood the UK market and see prices collapse.

How easy it must all be if you don't have a brain................................and how hard it will be when you don't have a job.

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

Barnier getting frustrated with the EU stance 

Anand Menon, warned tensions between Michel Barnier and the European Union were rising. During an interview  Mr Menon argued Michel Barnier's job as chief Brexit negotiator was being made more difficult by leaders of member states refusing any compromise. Mr Menon also claimed both the UK and EU would eventually have to relax their trade deal stances and Michel Barnier was adamant on doing that for the EU.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

Barnier getting frustrated with the EU stance 

Anand Menon, warned tensions between Michel Barnier and the European Union were rising. During an interview  Mr Menon argued Michel Barnier's job as chief Brexit negotiator was being made more difficult by leaders of member states refusing any compromise. Mr Menon also claimed both the UK and EU would eventually have to relax their trade deal stances and Michel Barnier was adamant on doing that for the EU.

Even if this were true Barnier has no freedom to go outside\beyond his negotiating brief which has already been agreed by the whole EU27 unless he can persuade every single EU leader to agree. Also all 27 (and even some regional/devolved governments I think) have to sign off on the deal so it would be pointless anyway.

Any one of the 27 but especially the larger countries have a very effective veto if the deal is not to their liking - as Spain has already clearly demonstrated over Gibraltar.

[SwindonCanary 455]

We are never going get anywhere if they continue telling him that they want fishing to remain the same = wishful thinking !

They are our waters  

 

[A Load of Squit 5,128]

19 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

We are never going get anywhere if they continue telling him that they want fishing to remain the same = wishful thinking !

They are our waters  

 

They were ours but we sold the fishing rights to a lot of them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116

Brexit trade deal: Who really owns UK fishing quotas?

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

THEY ARE OURS AFTER THIS YEAR !

[A Load of Squit 5,128]

8 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

THEY ARE OURS AFTER THIS YEAR !

Is that what we said when we sold them?

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

BREXIT  offers the perfect opportunity to ban industrial supertrawler fishing boats from UK waters.

[Bill 1,788]

The above article has this

"Under plans outlined in the Fisheries Bill, which is currently going through Parliament, the government does not intend to return the foreign-owned quota to UK fishermen."

"I don’t think the UK has any real leverage on fisheries.

“About 70 percent of the UK’s catch is exported to other EU countries, so failure to give ground here could result on heavy tariffs being applied to UK fish exports to the EU.

“So unless the UK public discover a vastly increased appetite for salmon and langoustines the sector could be decimated by a no deal fall-out.” Express 1th Ju

And therein lies the obvious flaw the numpties never seem to grasp. The reason so much is exported to the EU is that what UK fishermen catch is not wanted in the UK.  So the idea that things stay the same, with annual reviews, is why anyone with an IQ into double figures knows.

As the current impasse in talks is simply down to the naughty EU wanting the UK to stick to the Withdrawal Agreement as accepted by both sides last autumn.

Of course there is also the thorny problem of Welsh lamb - where around 90% of it's exports go to the EU - which will incur tariffs of around 45% if the UK leaves the EU - and that two thirds of its abattoir staff are EU subjects, and 90% of the abattoir vets are also EU subjects. Can't be that had to train a vet in a few weeks can it. 🙄

The only problem is whether to 'tup' all the ewes this autumn, to then only find you have lambs that are pretty much worthless come early spring.

No wonder UK farmers are kicking off, having finally grasped what brexit would mean to them

Farmer ploughs huge anti-Brexit message in field

 

A giant anti-Brexit message has been ploughed into a Wiltshire farmer’s field claiming “Britain now wants to remain”.

Farmer David Lewis of Manor Farm, Water Eaton, Swindon, who ploughed the message into his field, said: “Brexit would be just awful for farming. “So many farmers voted Leave but have since realised they were had.

[SwindonCanary 455]

We will allow them to fish in our waters but at a price and reduced quota (sorted yearly )

[Herman 9,713]

I think we've seen today what Brexit Britain will be like Swindo. An emboldend far-right egged on by a dog-whistling PM desperately using any trick to distract attention away from his incompetence. You can't say you weren't warned, repeatedly, for the last four years.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

57 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

We will allow them to fish in our waters but at a price and reduced quota (sorted yearly )

Which bit of we've already sold 50% of our quota don't you understand????

They've already paid the price and the percentage isn't going to change - the overall size of the pot may change from year to year depending upon the health of the fish stocks but whatever the volume of fish that can be landed from British waters each year,  just over half will caught by foreign boats because we have already sold those rights to them.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Creative Midfielder

[Bill 1,788]

Not what the simple minded brexiteers have been told, but

The fisheries Bill contains nothing that will change  that below

• The five largest quota-holders control more than a third of UK fishing quota
• Four of the top five belong to families on the Sunday Times Rich List
• The fifth is a Dutch multinational whose UK subsidiary – North Atlantic Fishing Company – controls around a quarter of England’s fishing quota
• Around half of England’s quota is ultimately owned by Dutch, Icelandic, or Spanish interests
• More than half (13) of the top 25 quota holders have directors, shareholders, or vessel partners who were convicted of offences in Scotland’s £63m “black fish” scam – a huge, sophisticated fraud that saw trawlermen and fish processors working together to evade quota limits and land 170,000 tonnes of undeclared herring and mackerel
• One of the flagships of the “Brexit flotilla” – which sailed up the Thames in 2016 to demand the UK’s exit from the EU – is among the UK’s 10 biggest quota-holders
• Around 29% of UK fishing quota is directly controlled by Rich List families. Some of these families have investments in dozens of other fishing companies, meaning companies holding 37% of UK quota are wholly or partly owned by these Rich List families.

neither will bleating out ill informed old tosh that owes more to Alf Garnett, than ever it does to current understanding. And it looks like fishermen are also now waking up to reality of how they have been had