The Positive Brexit Thread

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

34 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I am only a very rare visitor to this thread (reading and less posting) but I have only really just worked out (doh!) that most people who voted for Brexit who post are the same as those who support the current government. There is an uncanny alignment to my eyes and the correlation is astonishing. It's very rare I think for the opposite.

I know I can be a little naive at times but this is a revelation and I now understand completely the reactions on say, the Main Coronavirus thread, of posters who disagree so strongly on stuff. If you post a view then it is unacceptable to a few. Before lockdown, I ventured less comment (I have a low post count for the time I've been registered on here since 2004) so this is my excuse. 

Amazing that leftish and rightish posters would align so much to their Brexit stance as you might expect some Tories to have voted to remain and certainly vice versa. 

This is undoubtedly true and what I think several have eluded too.

I call it 'circling the wagons' - they can't easily accept any criticism (or look for lame excuses - it would be the same whatever we did etc.) of the current government on Covid as it opens up ones doubts to a truly shattering cacophony of criticism, ineptness, lies and spin on Brexit. 

It the 'Kings New Clothes' - unable and an unwillingness to questions the faith!

You reap what you sow.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Just keep telling yourself that @Van wink - and remember to stay happy whilst you're doing it, after all unlike the unfortunate 57% of the electorate, you have got what you voted for.  😀

I don’t know why you bother 😀

Edited May 21, 2020 by Van wink

[sonyc 5,491]

Reckon you're right about the acceptance issue, otherwise you're effectively permitting self-doubt in your own affiliation to agree with shortcomings of your own party.

Yet, I think that is healthy. 

It depends fundamentally on one's view of human nature. And that will go back to the ideas of Burke, Hobbes, Marx etc.

Indeed, there was a recent article of fault lines exposed by C19 and Brexit. There is some alignment but not complete (Guardian last week).

 

 

 

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

I am only a very rare visitor to this thread (reading and less posting) but I have only really just worked out (doh!) that most people who voted for Brexit who post are the same as those who support the current government. There is an uncanny alignment to my eyes and the correlation is astonishing. It's very rare I think for the opposite.

I know I can be a little naive at times but this is a revelation and I now understand completely the reactions on say, the Main Coronavirus thread, of posters who disagree so strongly on stuff. If you post a view then it is unacceptable to a few. Before lockdown, I ventured less comment (I have a low post count for the time I've been registered on here since 2004) so this is my excuse. 

Amazing that leftish and rightish posters would align so much to their Brexit stance as you might expect some Tories to have voted to remain and certainly vice versa. 

Unfortunately you will find most have closed minds🤫

[sonyc 5,491]

1 minute ago, Van wink said:

Unfortunately you will find most have closed minds🤫

If that indeed is the case, it creates for a miserable life (imho). To be free in anything is a wonderful thing and makes life worth living!

By all means have a stance and a view and be prepared to challenge others ...but here's the crux, challenge yourself (i.e. oneself) too!

[Van wink 2,994]

10 minutes ago, sonyc said:

If that indeed is the case, it creates for a miserable life (imho). To be free in anything is a wonderful thing and makes life worth living!

By all means have a stance and a view and be prepared to challenge others ...but here's the crux, challenge yourself (i.e. oneself) too!

Sadly that has never happened on this thread, as will be revealed in due course no doubt.

[sonyc 5,491]

Perhaps it's easier when another poster isn't (in a sense) a real person (& not speaking of aliases here 😉)...i.e. you know you'll never meet them in person. If posters met in a pub, I'm convinced they'd get on ok. It wouldn't be gunfight at the OK Corall

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

16 minutes ago, sonyc said:

If that indeed is the case, it creates for a miserable life (imho). To be free in anything is a wonderful thing and makes life worth living!

By all means have a stance and a view and be prepared to challenge others ...but here's the crux, challenge yourself (i.e. oneself) too!

 

4 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Sadly that has never happened on this thread, as will be revealed in due course no doubt.

 

Brexit it seems was mostly about a sense of being 'English' (interestingly not Scottish, Welsh or Irish - obvious when you see some of the views of the Brexiters on Scottish independence - what do we care ? - they cost 'us' money - or good riddance to NI etc. Wales was apparently only marginally pro-Brexit due to English immigrees!

This inward looking view then also correlates with a lack of tertiary education and age - which of themselves go hand in hand.

I however take the broader view that it was really head n heart - those that are more analytical, rational, pragmatic and less romantic went Remain on balance - those less so  - or with less to lose Brexit. So it's not about having an open mind - its was about using your mind and not your heart.

Nothing I have seen since has changed that view. Quite what those of us in our later days are doing with little or no 'skin in the game' voting for a 'nostalgic nationalistic' return to the past is really very odd. It was and should of been a decision for those that are young or at least economically active as they will have to make it work - or indeed undo it in due course.

[sonyc 5,491]

It was and should of been a decision for those that are young or at least economically active as they will have to make it work - or indeed undo it in due course.

Agree with this strongly. If you look at the age stats of the people who voted for Brexit they are disproportionately older and won't, it must be said, have to live with the consequences of their decision. The young will.

[Herman 9,713]

Your average remain supporter, non tory voter went into the covid disaster with a strong distrust of this government but for the sake of the country were willing to knuckle down and get through this together. Unfortunately the government have decided to carry on playing the same silly ****s that got them through Brexit. 

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

2 hours ago, Van wink said:

I don’t know why you bother 😀

Neither do I sometimes, and in fact although there's no particular reason why you should notice I don't bother anywhere near as much (or as often) as I used to.

But I notice that you're still in the same old routine, so you know every once in a while...........😀

[Herman 9,713]

10 hours ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

Hi Jools, have you got this month’s copy yet mate?

 

[Surfer 1,547]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Your average remain supporter, non tory voter went into the covid disaster with a strong distrust of this government but for the sake of the country were willing to knuckle down and get through this together. Unfortunately the government have decided to carry on playing the same silly ****s that got them through Brexit. 

Well it got them to where there are on Brexit anyway. It will be interesting to see if this public loss of trust over their response to CoronaVirus carries over to pushback on the Brexit negotiations... once you lose trust its hard to get it back - as long as the press don't go back into their regular propaganda mode that is. 

[SwindonCanary 455]

11 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

For non-EU citizens, there are several different work visas available for different purposes. Most work visas are part of the UK’s ‘points-based system’,

The link you have posted is about migration from non-EU countries

UK migration: Net migration from outside EU hits 'highest level'

THERE ALREADY IS A POINTS BASED SYSTEM FOR NON-EU COUNTRIES, YOU'RE AN IDIOT.

 

Wrong ! YOU ARE THE IDIOT

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement

Edited May 21, 2020 by SwindonCanary
ADDED LINK

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

7 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Wrong ! YOU ARE THE IDIOT

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement

YOU ARE THE IDIOT.

There is an existing points based system for non-EU migrants. It was phased in between 2008 and 2010. You owe A Load of Squit an apology.

Please see the details below, and stop LYING.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)

[A Load of Squit 5,128]

8 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Wrong ! YOU ARE THE IDIOT

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement

You are obviously so stupid that you haven't realised that you posted a link that proves you are an idiot.

If you don't understand why you're wrong ask a family member to help you.

 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

You are obviously so stupid that you haven't realised that you posted a link that proves you are an idiot.

If you don't understand why you're wrong ask a family member to help you.

 

 

I think i've been here before myself with SC - he posts links that simply refute what he claims they say.

Hence I don't think he actually reads them or most certainly has no comprehension. He'll probably make a Tory PM !

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

22 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

This is why we need a points based qualification system in place ASAP

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656

If there was a points system based on intelligence, you’d be deported immediately 🤣

[SwindonCanary 455]

[A Load of Squit 5,128]

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/22/economy/uk-economy-coronavirus-brexit/index.html

The grim mood was reflected Wednesday when the UK government sold its first bond ever with a negative yield. This indicated demand was so high that investors were essentially willing to pay the British government to lend it money.

Gilts, as they're known, are considered a safe-haven asset, alongside US, Japanese and German government bonds; elevated demand signals that investors are worried economic growth will remain depressed.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

quoting Wikipedia as the ultimate arbiter of truth is daft, as it is controlled media like the rest of them. what counts are government released documents and regulations.

As for closed minds... how does it appear, when an unelected member of the cabinet hires 3 ex leave campaign fellows of repute, to assist him on his eugenic decision making? does that look balanced and fair to half of the country that voted remain, or those 3 million that did not have a say in this matter?

Closed minds are guiding this Government, the forthcoming economic depression and it will guide all of us when we close our minds to this madness purporting to guide us out of peril, when all considerations are given and left to big business and industries which will feel much unsustainable economic pain this year.

meanwhile, a 3.1% pay rise for all MP's is ratified and paid since April20th. Self serving at its best, we can't be that hard up.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/16/new-zealand-pm-takes-20-pay-cut-wont-uks-leaders-12563901/

Edited May 22, 2020 by nevermind, neoliberalism has had it

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

9 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

Closed minds are guiding this Government, the forthcoming economic depression and it will guide all of us when we close our minds to this madness purporting to guide us out of peril, when all considerations are given and left to big business and industries which will feel much unsustainable economic pain this year.

meanwhile, a 3.1% pay rise for all MP's is ratified and paid since April20th. Self serving at its best, we can't be that hard up.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/16/new-zealand-pm-takes-20-pay-cut-wont-uks-leaders-12563901/

 No argument with any of that, and it's certainly true that whilst all members of the Government (and to some extent all Tory MPs) bear some responsibility for the appalling blunders made by the Government, your very apposite comparison with New Zealand highlights just how important the leadership (of lack of it) of an individual is.

New Zealand have a leader with the class, competence, and genuine connection with her citizens that frankly the UK can only dream about. Last time I saw a survey she had an 88% trust rating which is no real surprise given her stellar performance throughout her 2 years as PM and especially during this crisis - locked down before the first death, provided consistent and coherent guidance (being trustworthy probably helped a bit here!), started unlocking after 4 weeks with an R value of 0.4 and to date 1,504 cases and 21 deaths.

[Herman 9,713]

An interesting, but not that easy, read.

https://99-percent.org/what-is-the-market-fundamentalist-agenda/

 

‘The radicals advising Boris do not want a deal. Like the Marxists on the Labour Left, they see the shock of a no-deal Brexit as a chance to re-order our economy and society….That is manifestly not the will of the people.’

[Bill 1,788]

9 minutes ago, Herman said:

An interesting, but not that easy, read.

https://99-percent.org/what-is-the-market-fundamentalist-agenda/

 

‘The radicals advising Boris do not want a deal. Like the Marxists on the Labour Left, they see the shock of a no-deal Brexit as a chance to re-order our economy and society….That is manifestly not the will of the people.’

the only difference is those are Troskyists, quite different, whose belief is that the change promised/delivered will not benefit the working class but will serve as a necessary lesson to drive them towards a Trotskyist utopia

something the trots never tell their enthusiastic supporters who are drawn to the various campaign they latch onto - hence the huge number of banners always seen at demos

so you have one group who want Brexit because it matters little how much if t will fu ckup the lives of employees in the UK - and the other who do care that it will fu ckup the lives of employees as it will (supposedly) drive them further down the road to a revolution led by a bunch of deluded trots

[Herman 9,713]

...and the Brexit Party had both sides as their leaders.

[sonyc 5,491]

55 minutes ago, Herman said:

An interesting, but not that easy, read.

https://99-percent.org/what-is-the-market-fundamentalist-agenda/

 

‘The radicals advising Boris do not want a deal. Like the Marxists on the Labour Left, they see the shock of a no-deal Brexit as a chance to re-order our economy and society….That is manifestly not the will of the people.’

That's a decent source for some interesting debate. Unherd is another media outlet which provides a broader debate than the mainstream 

[sonyc 5,491]

3 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 No argument with any of that, and it's certainly true that whilst all members of the Government (and to some extent all Tory MPs) bear some responsibility for the appalling blunders made by the Government, your very apposite comparison with New Zealand highlights just how important the leadership (of lack of it) of an individual is.

New Zealand have a leader with the class, competence, and genuine connection with her citizens that frankly the UK can only dream about. Last time I saw a survey she had an 88% trust rating which is no real surprise given her stellar performance throughout her 2 years as PM and especially during this crisis - locked down before the first death, provided consistent and coherent guidance (being trustworthy probably helped a bit here!), started unlocking after 4 weeks with an R value of 0.4 and to date 1,504 cases and 21 deaths.

One of the most inspirational leaders I reckon in the last decade. The world needs far more of her sort.

[MooreMarriot 307]

Is that a faded Norwich City shirt Dominic Cummings is wearing ?

[Surfer 1,547]

Nah that's "our Alex" 

 

[Jools 584]

The following article completely destroys the Remainiacs 'Project Fear' and economic argument:

 

Most people know that about 46% of UK goods exports go to the EU

What people weren't told until now is that this is only 7.7% of GDP

If we lose all EU exports tomorrow, the economic effect would be much less than COVID

AN EXCLUSIVE AND IMPORTANT REPORT FROM BREXIT FACTS4EU.ORG

SOME HIGHLIGHTS

• Big Brexit Britain and the truth about the EU’s small economic effect
• Revealed: EU’s “Single Market” in goods - only 7.7% of UK’s GDP… and falling
• The EU’s share of UK goods exports has been falling for years
• Countries such as Germany have benefited far more, with 50% higher exports as proportion of GDP
• Yet UK total exports to the non-EU World are growing fast – now 18% of UK economy
• The UK could lose ALL EU exports and it would have less effect on UK GDP than COVID-19

This special Brexit Facts4EU.Org report includes a special insight for our readers from David Campbell Bannerman, former MEP of 10 years’ standing, crucially with many years of experience sitting on the EU Parliament’s International Trade Committee.

It is well-known fact that around 46% of the UK’s goods exports go to the EU. This figure drops to 43% if services are included.

It is a lesser-known fact that a percentage of the UK’s “EU exports” in fact merely transit through Dutch and Belgian ports on their way to the rest of the world. The true percentage for “EU exports” is therefore lower than reported.

One fact which is NOT known is that the UK’s exports to the EU represent a very small proportion of the UK’s economy as a whole.

The effect of EU exports on our economy is so small in fact, that the economic effects of the Coronavirus measures will dwarf any possible Brexit impacts on GDP.

Even if EU goods exports (7.7% of GDP) are added to EU services exports (5.9%), the percentage of UK GDP arising from export trade with the EU last year only just made it into the teens.

Brexit Facts4EU.Org exposes the myths about the importance of EU trade

After extensive research into the Government’s latest figures for 2019, Brexit Facts4EU.Org can reveal some astonishing facts. We have used the latest data for 2019, from the Office for National Statistics and HM Treasury.

Brexit Facts4EU.Org Summary

Putting the EU in its place, economically

• UK's total GDP in 2019 : £2,214.9bn
• UK goods exports to the EU : £170.6bn (7.70% of GDP)
• UK services exports to the EU : £129.8bn (5.86% of GDP)
• 86.4% of the UK economy has NOTHING to do with exports to the EU

In fact, nearly 70% of the UK economy is derived from domestic activities

• Domestic GDP (EXCLUDING exports to all EU and non-EU destinations) 68.46%
• GDP from non-EU goods exports : 9.12%
• GDP from non-EU services exports : 8.87%
• GDP from EU goods exports : 7.70%
• GDP from EU services exports : 5.86%

How does the UK compare to Germany?

• UK's GDP from EU goods exports : 7.7%
• Germany's GDP from EU goods exports : 22.3%
• Germany has been doing almost three times better from EU membership than the UK

Of the proportion of the UK economy derived from exports, the non-EU Rest of the World has a much larger impact than the EU. The UK’s exports of goods and services to non-EU countries in 2019 were ONE-THIRD HIGHER than to the EU27.

Former MEP and EU Parliament International Trade Committee Member,
David Campbell Bannerman, commented:-

“Your excellent research shows very strongly that the main driver of our economic wealth isn’t the EU – it’s our own economy. We're making and selling so much to ourselves. Almost 70% - as you found out - is generated within our own borders, and 86% has nothing to do with the EU.

“So this argument that we have to do a deal with the EU or we're finished is a nonsense.”

A full interview with Mr Campbell Bannerman appears in tomorrow's edition of Facts4EU.Org.

What has happened to UK goods exports to the EU’s Single Market in the past 20 years?

The story of the UK’s economic relationship with the EU’s Single Market has not been a happy one. Below we show what has happened to the proportion of the UK’s goods exports to the EU over the past 20 years.

 

PLEASE NOTE : This chart shows the percentage of UK goods exports which go to the EU - NOT the small percentage contribution they make to UK GDP.

• In just 20 years, the share of UK goods exports going to the EU has plummeted from 60.2% to 45.8%
• That’s a drop of ALMOST one quarter
• It means that exports of UK goods to the EU now only represent 7.7% of UK GDP
• Exports of UK services to the EU are even lower at 5.86% of GDP
• Services are the lifeblood of the UK economy- around 80% of total GDP

 

And when it comes to services, it should be recalled what the EU’s Single Market Commissioner admitted in 2017:-

“The Single Market – this jewel that is all too often taken for granted – does not function properly for services”

- EU Commissioner for the Single Market, 2017

Given that services represents almost 80% of the UK economy, and that the Single Market has been going for over 25 years, this was an extraordinary admission.

 

This is the Single Market which was described by the OECD in their damning 2016 report as being: “unfinished and stalled”. (This report came out just before the Referendum, but somehow the BBC forgot to mention it.)

The non-EU world is buying from the UK more and more

Below we show how the rest of the (non-EU) world has been buying more and more goods from the UK, and contributing more and more to UK GDP. In the last 20 years, while goods sales to the EU have been falling, the rest of the World has been snapping up an increasing number of products from UK companies.

Sales of goods to the rest of the (non-EU) world now account for 9.1% of GDP. And these sales have been growing.

 

And finally, what about services?

When it comes to services, the UK's sales to the rest of the (non-EU) world are far more important for UK GDP than our sales of services to the EU27.

In fact the UK’s sales are now more than 50% higher to the rest of the (non-EU) world than to the EU, as a proportion of UK GDP.

SUMMARY

The EU is on our doorstep. We were members for 47 years. Yet the EU has a much smaller effect on UK GDP than our trading partners in other parts of the world, and the EU has been shrinking in importance for years.

In this article we have tried to put the EU’s market into context. In terms of the UK’s overall economy, the impact of our sales to the EU are much smaller than most people have been told. Even if the EU stopped buying anything from the UK tomorrow, the effect on the UK economy would be less than the effects that the Coronavirus measures are having.

 

Informative opinions

We asked renowned former MEP David Campbell Bannerman – a man with years of experience on the EU Parliament’s International Trade Committee – for his views on our research.

Mr Campbell Bannerman is a former MEP of 10 years’ standing, former Chairman of the Conservative Bow Group, former Deputy Leader of UKIP, and crucially has many years of experience sitting on the EU Parliament’s International Trade Committee. He is also the originator of the ‘SuperCanada’ trade option, for the future trade arrangement between the EU and the UK, and is an ardent Brexiteer.

EU Parliament Brexit spokesman - the Belgian Guy Verhofstadt - once called David Campbell Bannerman's comments “insane”.

We can’t think of a better recommendation for reading what Mr Campbell Bannerman has to say.

 

Photo left: Guy Verhofstadt, MEP from Belgium, a divided country with less than a fifth of the economic power of the United Kingdom - an extreme EU federalist politician in the EU Parliament

Here is a short excerpt from our interview with David Campbell Bannerman.

“Post COVID we've got to be much nimbler as an economy – indeed as a country.

“We've got to be more competitive, we've got to be less regulated. All of these things can be compromised by a bad deal with the EU involving regulatory control. That is not acceptable. That is too big a price to pay.”

You do not want to miss David Campbell Bannerman's fascinating views on our research here tomorrow, together with his thoughts on the UK-EU trade talk

 

Observations

Naturally no-one would wish away anything contributing to the UK's GDP, and this article does not say this. What it does do is to provide solid and up-to-date facts about the relative importance of EU exports to the UK economy.

This report is about context. It's about proportionality.

For years the British people have been brainwashed by previous governments, the London Establishment, Big Business, the BBC, and others into believing that exports to the EU provide the lion's share of jobs and wealth. They don't. Not even remotely close.

We remember Remainer MPs - mostly Labour, LibDem and SNP, but many Conservative MPs too - telling the public that "50% of our exports go to the EU", "our jobs depend on the EU", and other such claims. Prior to the Referendum and every day since we have tried to counter these falsehoods.

Over and over again - both before and since the EU Referendum four years ago – anti-Brexit campaigners have trotted out the same tired arguments about Brexit. One of their recurrent themes has been what they claim as being the necessity of staying in - or closely allied to - the EU’s “Single Market” and “Customs Union”. They claimed - and still do - that so much of our economy depends on this. Sadly their arguments were not based on the facts.

Our research above clearly shows how the EU has made a much smaller contribution to the UK economy and its GDP than the public has been told for so many years.

The information in our article has all been researched from official sources - in this case from the Office for National Statistics and HM Treasury.

Of course it makes sense to do a trade deal with the EU - on very good terms

If an advantageous trade deal can be struck with the EU, then of course it should be done. The problem is that the EU seem to believe that the UK will do a deal at any price.

Given the current intransigence by the EU and given the relatively small contribution from the EU market to the UK's overall economy, however, it seems inevitable that Monsieur Barnier's "teek-tock" will still be ringing in his head for long after his retirement.

 

We hope readers agree that the above report is important, and that it was worth researching, writing, designing and publishing it. We know it's longer than most of our articles, and that it contains more facts than usual, but we felt readers would want a full picture.