The Positive Brexit Thread

[Fen Canary 796]

6 minutes ago, BigFish said:

There isn't a vast difference and yes they are the same.

Would I be mistaken in guessing you are a white, middle aged man?

Depends what you define as middle aged but being on a Norwich forum I’d wager most people on here are white, as there isn’t a large number of other ethnicities in the area compared to the larger cities. Though I fail to see what my race has to do with anything quite frankly. It’s my experience that’s shaped my opinions, not my skin colour. 

[Fen Canary 796]

5 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

If the Labour leader was quoted with a number of racist and homophobic remarks, would your opinion be the same? Would you just ignore it? Or would you use it as ammunition? Be honest.

I’ve no great love for either party, I’ve never seen the point in staying loyal to a political party through thick and thin in the same way you do with football teams, I simply vote who I think is going to run the country best at the time. 

Therefore I’d look at the context of what was said any why. If he’s ranting and raving in a Tommy Robinson style then he should be rightly called out. If he wrote numerous opinion pieces and a couple had a line that isn’t quite as PC as some would like then I wouldn’t pay much attention to it personally. As I’ve said I doubt you get elected to a large, diverse left leaning city such as London twice if you’re a racist bigot. 

Ultimately Corbyn was the architect of his own downfall by not keeping the lunatic fringe of momentum under control and not picking a side on Brexit, though I’ll admit he wasn’t in an enviable position because the group that put him into power were very pro EU, as were large numbers of his MP’s, but two thirds of his constituencies voted to Leave. 

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

The word 'picaninny' is a racial slur. It may be dated but it's still a slur and you wouldn't use such a word without giving some insight into your internal 'racial' values.

It's not a light hearted jibe come joke. Never was and never will be.

[BigFish 1,986]

23 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Depends what you define as middle aged but being on a Norwich forum I’d wager most people on here are white, as there isn’t a large number of other ethnicities in the area compared to the larger cities. Though I fail to see what my race has to do with anything quite frankly. It’s my experience that’s shaped my opinions, not my skin colour. 

Well, for a start the experience that you talk of is that of a white man of a certain age coming from what you admit is a fairly monocultural area. You haven't experienced racism in all its forms and yet you still feel qualified to define what is, and what isn't racist. Any definition you might chose is likely to come from the experience membership of a privileged segment of society (e.g. those not discriminated against). For Johnson this is more so, but as @Herman points out it is likely his racism was very deliberate. Whereas, not knowing you I cannot comment. What I do know is that those who know (Muslims, members of BAME and LGBT communities) found what he wrote racist, homophobic and offensive. Worse than that it encouraged and normalised racist bigots on UK streets.

[Fen Canary 796]

4 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

The word 'picaninny' is a racial slur. It may be dated but it's still a slur and you wouldn't use such a word without giving some insight into your internal 'racial' values.

It's not a light hearted jibe come joke. Never was and never will be.

As I’ve said, my opinion is based on personal experience. I don’t believe every race based joke or piece of slightly un pc language is an example of racism, as I’ve seen and heard far worse during the course of my career going both ways and it’s never been a problem. To me racism is when malice is intended, or if somebody takes offence and the offender carries on regardless. I’m uncomfortable with the weaponisation of language that doesn’t allow for context, in much the same way the #metoo movement by the end was comparing a clumsy chat up attempt to be on par with the crimes committed by the likes of Harvey Weinstein. Nobody I’ve known has ever been overly concerned with race, it only seems to be an issue with middle class students who don’t have any other real problems in their lives to contend with

[Fen Canary 796]

1 minute ago, BigFish said:

Well, for a start the experience that you talk of is that of a white man of a certain age coming from what you admit is a fairly monocultural area. You haven't experienced racism in all its forms and yet you still feel qualified to define what is, and what isn't racist. Any definition you might chose is likely to come from the experience membership of a privileged segment of society (e.g. those not discriminated against). For Johnson this is more so, but as @Herman points out it is likely his racism was very deliberate. Whereas, not knowing you I cannot comment. What I do know is that those who know (Muslims, members of BAME and LGBT communities) found what he wrote racist, homophobic and offensive. Worse than that it encouraged and normalised racist bigots on UK streets.

Having worked all over this and other countries with all sorts of people, I’m simply saying that most I know and worked with who are of a different race and nationality to myself couldn’t care less about articles like this. To most context is everything, rather than simply treating every incident as exactly the same. Maybe because it’s a more working class industry people in it have a different outlook on the subject than yourself

[kick it off 1,948]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

No, I just believe that racism/bigotry isn’t a completely black and white subject, pardon the pun. There’s a vast difference between a satirical column such as the ones you’ve mentioned, and genuine racism such as the BNP or National Front, however you seem to think that they’re one and the same.

Maybe 20 odd years of working on building sites gives me a different outlook on life to yourselves, where being thrown together with all sorts of characters, colours and creeds everybody is a target for jokes, be it about their weight, looks, race, nationality, intelligence, age etc. and nobody cares because they’re clever enough to know there’s no malice in it, they simply carry on taking the pi$$ just like everybody else. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just find all the faux outrage when anybody says the slightest thing that doesn’t fit the narrative of the identity politics brigade to be rather pathetic 

I haven't heard anyone say it is a "black and white" subject. I have seen various people think that using language like picaninny and tanktop wearing bumboys is not OK. The tolerance of casual racial tropes in national media is what leads to the BNP or the NF being able to wield influence. The fact you don't see the link belies your protestations of your great intellect.

Don't think anyone here has accused Boris of being a grand wizard, but more of having inherent casually racist and bigoted views. As do many people brought up in his era and of his economic background.

There's a difference between having a laugh with your mates about any kind of identity politics and pi55 taking, and publishing racist tropes in a nationally circulated newspaper when your readership is quite clearly on the spectrum that would celebrate that kind of casual racism..... Maybe your 20 years on building sites has absolutely no relevance to anything as you have no idea of my background or life experiences.

[kick it off 1,948]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

Therefore I’d look at the context of what was said any why. If he’s ranting and raving in a Tommy Robinson style then he should be rightly called out. If he wrote numerous opinion pieces and a couple had a line that isn’t quite as PC as some would like then I wouldn’t pay much attention to it personally. As I’ve said I doubt you get elected to a large, diverse left leaning city such as London twice if you’re a racist bigot. 

Do you think that these articles are any different to Tommy Robinson's ****e? Do you think they pander to the same audience? Do you think that seeing these kind of racial tropes and stereotypes "normalises" the EDL mentality?

[kick it off 1,948]

50 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Nobody I’ve known has ever been overly concerned with race, it only seems to be an issue with middle class students who don’t have any other real problems in their lives to contend with

Funny that, it was an issue for me when I was 11 years old and I had my head slammed in a locker, and a small group of kids walking round school pinning yellow stars on their blazer because my Grandad was Polish and had been in a concentration camp (misguided as he wasn't even Jewish, he was a political prisoner but the intent was clear enough). In fact, as the only kid with Polish heritage and a name that makes that obvious, every time I was called a c**t or whatever it was preceded by the words "you Polish..."...no objection to kids stuff and calling each other c**ts etc but the fact I have Polish heritage has nothing to do with whether I'm acting like a c**t or not..... I was growing up when the Daily Mail, Spectator etc were full of "the Poles coming over and stealing our jobs etc"....  so you can say what you like about Boris' "harmless use of language", but the reality is, you apparently seem to make **** all connection between that and the real life experiences of others stemming from that kind of language being normalised.....

But I will bow down to your 20 years experience on building sites as a far more comprehensive guide to racism, despite the fact you've never been on the receiving end of it. You clearly have a much better understanding than I do of how the propagation of racial tropes impacts real people.

[Fen Canary 796]

3 hours ago, kick it off said:

Funny that, it was an issue for me when I was 11 years old and I had my head slammed in a locker, and a small group of kids walking round school pinning yellow stars on their blazer because my Grandad was Polish and had been in a concentration camp (misguided as he wasn't even Jewish, he was a political prisoner but the intent was clear enough). In fact, as the only kid with Polish heritage and a name that makes that obvious, every time I was called a c**t or whatever it was preceded by the words "you Polish..."...no objection to kids stuff and calling each other c**ts etc but the fact I have Polish heritage has nothing to do with whether I'm acting like a c**t or not..... I was growing up when the Daily Mail, Spectator etc were full of "the Poles coming over and stealing our jobs etc"....  so you can say what you like about Boris' "harmless use of language", but the reality is, you apparently seem to make **** all connection between that and the real life experiences of others stemming from that kind of language being normalised.....

But I will bow down to your 20 years experience on building sites as a far more comprehensive guide to racism, despite the fact you've never been on the receiving end of it. You clearly have a much better understanding than I do of how the propagation of racial tropes impacts real people.

Tell me, why does my experience count for any less than yours? I’m describing what I’ve seen amongst the different races and nationalities during the last 20 years, you’re describing getting picked on as a child be children, presumably much further back than that. Simply because your experience was negative and mine mostly positive doesn’t mean yours trumps mine. I never said that racism doesn’t happen, however in my opinion there’s a vast difference between writing about a few stereotypes and the physical abuse you endured, and I don’t believe they deserve the same condemnation 

[Herman 9,717]

You're just desperately trying to defend the indefensible. Johnson wrote dog whistle racist and homophobic articles. Because he has these tendencies and he knows a lot of his base have these tendencies and because he wanted to attract others to his way of thinking. 

[BigFish 1,986]

4 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Tell me, why does my experience count for any less than yours? I’m describing what I’ve seen amongst the different races and nationalities during the last 20 years, you’re describing getting picked on as a child be children, presumably much further back than that. Simply because your experience was negative and mine mostly positive doesn’t mean yours trumps mine. I never said that racism doesn’t happen, however in my opinion there’s a vast difference between writing about a few stereotypes and the physical abuse you endured, and I don’t believe they deserve the same condemnation 

It is because your decription on life on building sites is just not credible. You paint a idyllic picture of diversity of an industry that has a repuration for racism, sexism and is probably homophobic. Either you have been very lucky in where you work, or you just dob't notice or you think this is normal.

[Bill 1,788]

14 hours ago, Herman said:

Brexit still coming up trumps.😐

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/15/romanian-fruit-pickers-flown-uk-crisis-farming-sector-coronavirus

Footage of brexiteers so desperate to work as fruit pickers that the police are forced to try and hold them back

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

On 15/04/2020 at 08:14, Hoola Han Solo said:

Swindon has on multiple occasions posted up lies from Leave websites.

If you keep writing it, some daft people will believe you, and have done so, in the past  !

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

5 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

If you keep writing it, some daft people will believe you, and have done so, in the past  !

Stop stalking me please 🙄

Those daft people being you who believes all the lies fed to him by his right wing overlords.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Hoola Han Solo

[Fen Canary 796]

38 minutes ago, BigFish said:

It is because your decription on life on building sites is just not credible. You paint a idyllic picture of diversity of an industry that has a repuration for racism, sexism and is probably homophobic. Either you have been very lucky in where you work, or you just dob't notice or you think this is normal.

Why isn’t it credible Fish? Do you work on building sites, or mix with people that do? If not how would you know what happens on them? On site you get many different trades and companies thrown together, mostly from poorer backgrounds, and you have to get along and plan the job along with everybody else. Every site you’re with a different group of trades, it simply wouldn’t work if the industry was a hive of racist, sexist, homophobic bigots. 

You preach tolerance yet seem strangely intolerant of people who have a different viewpoint to yourself. You simply accuse me of being a liar when my experience doesn’t fit your preconceived narrative 

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

45 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Why isn’t it credible Fish? Do you work on building sites, or mix with people that do? If not how would you know what happens on them? On site you get many different trades and companies thrown together, mostly from poorer backgrounds, and you have to get along and plan the job along with everybody else. Every site you’re with a different group of trades, it simply wouldn’t work if the industry was a hive of racist, sexist, homophobic bigots. 

You preach tolerance yet seem strangely intolerant of people who have a different viewpoint to yourself. You simply accuse me of being a liar when my experience doesn’t fit your preconceived narrative 

Out of sheer interest is 'Picaninny' a word commonly used on a building site or any where else ?

If it isn't I can only assume Johnson's use of it was either a) deliberate or b) totally ignorant.

Either way you are defending the indefensible. It would be better just to stop digging.

There is a world of difference between light hearted jesting  between friends and clearly racist tropes. Sadly racism is an affliction that mankind (all 'tribes') as a whole suffer from led by ignorant inward looking people that need to define 'us' as opposed to them.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Yellow Fever

[A Load of Squit 5,135]

36 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

If you keep writing it, some daft people will believe you, and have done so, in the past  !

We're capable of seeing the evidence ourselves, HHS is correct.

[kick it off 1,948]

7 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Tell me, why does my experience count for any less than yours? I’m describing what I’ve seen amongst the different races and nationalities during the last 20 years, you’re describing getting picked on as a child be children, presumably much further back than that. Simply because your experience was negative and mine mostly positive doesn’t mean yours trumps mine. I never said that racism doesn’t happen, however in my opinion there’s a vast difference between writing about a few stereotypes and the physical abuse you endured, and I don’t believe they deserve the same condemnation 

But again, you're failing to see the link between the normalisation of that kind of language and the racial tropes in the media, and others acting upon it. Those kind of views don't come from nowhere.

Edited April 16, 2020 by kick it off

[SwindonCanary 455]

1 hour ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

Stop stalking me please 🙄

Those daft people being you who believes all the lies fed to him by his right wing overlords.

I knew that would get your back up YOU ARE THE ACE STALKER can't you come up with something different or does the truth hurt? 😉

Edited April 16, 2020 by SwindonCanary
imogy

[Herman 9,717]

I'll give Fen some credit as he is attempting to back up his thinking. Maybe you should give it a go Swindo. 

[Herman 9,717]

As an aside, wiki dog whistle politics and see whose name regularly pops up. Three separate continents and still heavily involved in UK politics. 

[Fen Canary 796]

55 minutes ago, kick it off said:

But again, you're failing to see the link between the normalisation of that kind of language and the racial tropes in the media, and others acting upon it. Those kind of views don't come from nowhere.

Are you suggesting there was an upsurge in racist attacks, or thousands joined the National Front because Johnson used a word you don’t approve of in a newspaper column? 

[Fen Canary 796]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Out of sheer interest is 'Picaninny' a word commonly used on a building site or any where else ?

If it isn't I can only assume Johnson's use of it was either a) deliberate or b) totally ignorant.

Either way you are defending the indefensible. It would be better just to stop digging.

There is a world of difference between light hearted jesting  between friends and clearly racist tropes. Sadly racism is an affliction that mankind (all 'tribes') as a whole suffer from led by ignorant inward looking people that need to define 'us' as opposed to them.

I haven’t heard picaninny in a long time to be honest, but I have heard numerous others used. My point being that for me, and most of the blokes I’ve worked with over the years, context is everything. In attempting to portray a fairly culturally liberal PM as a far right bigot over a minor comment such as that, you normalise actual racism and the far right. Bringing back into the Brexit argument, if you constantly accuse Leave voters of being racist bigots, you run the risk of pushing them towards the actual racist parties, as happened in Germany with the AfD

[kick it off 1,948]

2 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Are you suggesting there was an upsurge in racist attacks, or thousands joined the National Front because Johnson used a word you don’t approve of in a newspaper column? 

It certainly creates a fertile breeding ground for EDL type views, I'm surprised anyone is questioning that, especially considering your self appointed intellectual status. At risk of upsetting Godwin's law - the final solution didn't happen overnight - it was the culmination of a decade of constant media dehumanisation of Jews. I'm not saying that's Boris' agenda obviously, but it is clear that these kind of racial steretypes and tropes repeated often enough cause people to behave in racist ways. Do you think I would have had the abuse I got for being Polish, if the Daily Mail hadn't been publishing stories every day about how the "Poles coming over were doing honest, hardworking Brits out of a job"?

I can't believe you're willing to die on this particular hill, but each to their own - I can't be bothered to discuss this issue further because you seemingly don't understand the fundamental points of the discourse. You started by saying there needs to be malice for there to be racism, but then cannot seemingly link the fact that the very use of the language and racist tropes in the media causes people who are a bit thick to act upon it with malice.

You seem to be far more upset about people calling out racism than you are about racism itself. Says quite alot about you.

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

I knew that would get your back up YOU ARE THE ACE STALKER can't you come up with something different or does the truth hurt? 😉

Can’t you just come up with SOMETHING?!

All you do is spout s hite, Swindo.

 

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

I haven’t heard picaninny in a long time to be honest, but I have heard numerous others used. My point being that for me, and most of the blokes I’ve worked with over the years, context is everything. In attempting to portray a fairly culturally liberal PM as a far right bigot over a minor comment such as that, you normalise actual racism and the far right. Bringing back into the Brexit argument, if you constantly accuse Leave voters of being racist bigots, you run the risk of pushing them towards the actual racist parties, as happened in Germany with the AfD

Simply No.

I might excuse as simply ignorant and uncouth somebody who uses such words naively but without understanding their history and effect - indeed I recall my own grandparents (born c. 1900) and indeed parents using such terms. Were they being deliberately racist - no - but they knew no better. They would always be surprised when they met a 'foreign' person -'"Oh, he's a nice man/woman etc."

However - Johnson is writing in the public eye - and not in in the 1960s but in the 21st century. He should know better.

So you have a choice - associate and defend those that think such language is acceptable - and be rightly labelled as ignorant, backward and indeed a 'casual' racist or accept that it's not acceptable and should do better. It's your choice!

[Herman 9,717]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Are you suggesting there was an upsurge in racist attacks, or thousands joined the National Front because Johnson used a word you don’t approve of in a newspaper column? 

I am sure there was an upswing in Islamophobic attacks after his letterbox comments. 

[A Load of Squit 5,135]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Are you suggesting there was an upsurge in racist attacks, or thousands joined the National Front because Johnson used a word you don’t approve of in a newspaper column? 

They didn't join the NF, they joined the Conservative Party.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/28/britain-first-far-right-members-5000-have-joined-tories

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/paul-golding-conservatives-britain-first-boris-johnson-muslim-women-letterboxes-a9254061.html

Britain First leader officially joins Conservative Party: 'Boris Johnson is like us'

 

[Crafty Canary 495]

I recall Jeremy Clarkson being vilified for describing a bridge as having a slope. The picture of the bridge did indeed show it to have an incline. It also showed an asian man walking on it. I was amazed to learn that slope is also a pejorative term for an asian. Now I have no idea what Clarkson meant when he said slope but it showed me how one can innocently use a word only to be abused by those who interpret it to suit their desire to be offended.