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The Brexit Thread

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6 hours ago, Van wink said:

I am arguing for a trading block, and the cost of facilitating that to be proportionate to purpose.

Well the EU single market is the most comprehensive and effective trading bloc in the world but the single market cannot operate/exist without its underlying principles which obviously includes a common set of rules/standards and the freedoms which Brexiteers so detest.

Pretty ironic really considering that the Tories are always preaching about the virtues and benefits of a market driven approach in everything including public services. Leaving aside the total failure of the private sector to deliver what was promised in many areas of public service, in general the internal market within the UK is imperfect in many areas and barely a market at all in some areas.

Strange then that the Tories continue to preach about a market driven approach in all policy areas whilst turning their back on the best and most comprehensive market anywhere in the world.

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8 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

no, they listened to the experts its you lot that are saying it was wrong.

No they really didn't, and its not just us saying they got it wrong - its the WHO, its scientists and other governments all over the world.

In case you have completely missed it those same  'experts'  that you refer to are now saying that in a few weeks time we will have exceeded the deaths in both Italy and Spain because this government have completely screwed up.

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8 hours ago, BigFish said:

SKS would handle it better

How so? He would have had the same scientific people advising him, to the same healthcare facilities etc. The response would have been largely similar. London is a worldwide hub, a densely packed city of 8 million. By the time anybody realised it was here and the potential damage it was too late anyway. What would Corbyn or Starmer have done any differently? 

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7 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

 

This is exactly the point.

If the EU was indeed a superstate as claimed by some (a bit like the US) it would have a 'federal' response. No problems.

It's not - all the individual states guard their sovereignty and want to do their own thing good or bad.

The EU can only do what the component states agree to no more no less.

But then this is what the UK wants isn't it ? A limit on the 'federal powers' but all the benefits of the SM/CU.

But there is the catch - the SM / CU does indeed need some common agreements and laws / regulations to make it work.

 

That said the resignation should have the desired effect to focus minds.

So which is it? If the EU is simply a trading bloc with some collaboration in science then why does it need a parliament, an unelected commission, a President, a multi billion dollar budget, its own budget and immigration laws and why is Macron talking of a future joint defence? If it was simply for trade all it would need would be a court to settle disputes.

If however it’s much more than that then where has it been during the pandemic or the migrant crisis? Why has it left the southern EU countries to shoulder most of the burden. NATO has been more successful than the EU in getting supplies to Italy and that’s not even it’s main function

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9 hours ago, BigFish said:

The UK has AstraZeneca and GlaxoSmithKline.

For a government that is supposedly doing so well it is strange that it looks like the impact of Covid-19 on the UK is likely to be larger than any other European country. Admit it, they have ****ed this up

Our infection and death rate is largely in line with most other northern EU countries when based on population. The only outlier is Germany and as I’ve said they count their deaths differently to most which may explain their low fatality rate 

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12 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

So which is it? If the EU is simply a trading bloc with some collaboration in science then why does it need a parliament, an unelected commission, a President, a multi billion dollar budget, its own budget and immigration laws and why is Macron talking of a future joint defence? If it was simply for trade all it would need would be a court to settle disputes.

If however it’s much more than that then where has it been during the pandemic or the migrant crisis? Why has it left the southern EU countries to shoulder most of the burden. NATO has been more successful than the EU in getting supplies to Italy and that’s not even it’s main function

Fen - I will let you do some research into the original reasoning for the 'Maastricht' agreement. The answers are there!

As a guide it has something to do with increasing democratic accountability (not just the earlier EEC commissioners appointed by governments) given Thatchers single market (especially for services) which needed common standards and single market laws. By the way there are 5 'Presidents' - but they are not 'Presidents' as you imply - just civil servants overseeing particular roles.  

By the way - suggest you also find out about the cost of our 'replacement' civil service mandarins now needed to run in effect all the same systems as Brussel did. Sadly they are nothing  like as cost efficient since all the tasks remain but spread on 1 country not 28 but then the Brexiters are known to have large cheque books to pay for all these naively 'forgotten' extra costs.

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49 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Fen - I will let you do some research into the original reasoning for the 'Maastricht' agreement. The answers are there!

As a guide it has something to do with increasing democratic accountability (not just the earlier EEC commissioners appointed by governments) given Thatchers single market (especially for services) which needed common standards and single market laws. By the way there are 5 'Presidents' - but they are not 'Presidents' as you imply - just civil servants overseeing particular roles.  

By the way - suggest you also find out about the cost of our 'replacement' civil service mandarins now needed to run in effect all the same systems as Brussel did. Sadly they are nothing  like as cost efficient since all the tasks remain but spread on 1 country not 28 but then the Brexiters are known to have large cheque books to pay for all these naively 'forgotten' extra costs.

The Maastricht Treaty was the biggest blow to democracy in this country in a long time. It shifted responsibility away from elected and accountable MPs in Westminster towards various unelected EU bodies such as the EU Commission. It was the point the EU moved away from a trading bloc towards what it has become. This was taken even further by the Lisbon Treaty, which was signed into law anyway despite the French and Dutch electorate voting against it. Though at least they got to vote on it, which is more than can be said for the UK.

Also if the EU doesn’t have a President who is Ursula von der Leyen?

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33 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Also if the EU doesn’t have a President who is Ursula von der Leyen?

She is President (e.g. the head) of the European Commission (e.g. the EU Civil Service, not the European Union).

This is very different from an Executive President.

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3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Meanwhile, out in the real world:

 

IMG_20200408_193819.jpg

 

2 hours ago, Surfer said:

Oh dear... here we go with the "Dear Leader" BS. I though the world had learned about that peril already. 

Trump "only I can fix it"  / " I take no responsibility" 

N.Korea and Russia - "there are no cases of the Virus here" 

UK -  "The Country and your people" - what does "your people" mean exactly? 

The fact is Boris is the Prime Minister, nothing more nothing less.  He's in the ICU and he should give up power to the other members of the Cabinet so he can focus on getting better, and the country can focus on the urgent issues at hand.

Waiting for his "direction" and "guidance" is just stupid and frankly very scary. 

 

What this shows is that Boris is deeply loved by the people of this country and they are proud to stand with him at this most difficult time. Being loved in not an attribute normally represented in a Prime Minister so it does go to show just how much support Boris carries in the country and how everybody is rooting for him right now. As they say, you don't know what you've got til it's gone. We are all Conservatives now and looking at Starmer's shadow cabinet, they are wannabees, too.

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3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

And in another world:

 

I love it that when socialism fails - as it always does - the lefties always claim 'ah, but that wasn't real socialism'.🤣

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1 minute ago, Rock The Boat said:

 

What this shows is that Boris is deeply loved by the people of this country and they are proud to stand with him at this most difficult time. Being loved in not an attribute normally represented in a Prime Minister so it does go to show just how much support Boris carries in the country and how everybody is rooting for him right now. As they say, you don't know what you've got til it's gone. We are all Conservatives now and looking at Starmer's shadow cabinet, they are wannabees, too.

I'm sure they said the same about Herr Hilter.... not that the above adulation is the same. No of course not. 

We all want him to recover, because he's human, has a family and it's the appropriate human response. 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

The Maastricht Treaty was the biggest blow to democracy in this country in a long time. It shifted responsibility away from elected and accountable MPs in Westminster towards various unelected EU bodies such as the EU Commission. It was the point the EU moved away from a trading bloc towards what it has become. This was taken even further by the Lisbon Treaty, which was signed into law anyway despite the French and Dutch electorate voting against it. Though at least they got to vote on it, which is more than can be said for the UK.

Also if the EU doesn’t have a President who is Ursula von der Leyen?

Fen I appreciate you feel you want to leave the EU and feelings aren't easily addressable by facts.

I deal in facts, not feelings.

The problem I have is people trying to self-justify their feelings for Brexit by misrepresenting facts. I feel I want to support the Canaries illogical as it seems at times!

If you want to leave the EU just say you feel you want to leave the EU. Dont try to make the facts fit your feelings. It doesn't work that way.

I see BF has already corrected an obvious factual error already.

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2 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

I love it that when socialism fails - as it always does - the lefties always claim 'ah, but that wasn't real socialism'.🤣

The first sign of madness - talking to yourself 😅🤣

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3 minutes ago, Surfer said:

I'm sure they said the same about Herr Hilter.... not that the above adulation is the same. No of course not. 

We all want him to recover, because he's human, has a family and it's the appropriate human response. 

 

 

Why do you compare Boris Johnson with Adolf Hitler?

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14 minutes ago, BigFish said:

She is President (e.g. the head) of the European Commission (e.g. the EU Civil Service, not the European Union).

This is very different from an Executive President.

Where else in the world is the head of the civil service a president?

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21 minutes ago, BigFish said:

She is President (e.g. the head) of the European Commission (e.g. the EU Civil Service, not the European Union).

This is very different from an Executive President.

True she’s not president formally in the same way as Trump or Macron, but she is de facto leader in all but name, as was Barnier before her. If they were simply the civil service they she wouldn’t be making speeches about issues such as the EU’s future direction, as it wouldn’t be her place to decide. It would be her job to simply enact what others told her and the commission to do. I’ve never heard the head of the UK civil service giving speeches regarding political decisions in the same way I have the EU Commission President 

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13 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Fen I appreciate you feel you want to leave the EU and feelings aren't easily addressable by facts.

I deal in facts, not feelings.

The problem I have is people trying to self-justify their feelings for Brexit by misrepresenting facts. I feel I want to support the Canaries illogical as it seems at times!

If you want to leave the EU just say you feel you want to leave the EU. Dont try to make the facts fit your feelings. It doesn't work that way.

I see BF has already corrected an obvious factual error already.

That was quite a post that didn’t actually say anything, it was almost like listening to a politician. What part of my post was lacking facts about Maastricht and Lisbon treaties moving power away from national parliaments?

The fact is the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties did move powers to the EU that had previously belonged to domestic governments . Maastricht was originally rejected by the Danes but they were made to vote again, and was only narrowly accepted by the French, on a margin much closer than the Brexit vote. The Lisbon Treaty continued this trend after the Irish were made to vote again after rejecting it first time around, and the wishes of the French and Dutch voters who rejected it were simply ignored. Both are examples of diminishing democracy in the country and throughout Europe as a whole 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Why do you compare Boris Johnson with Adolf Hitler?

I don't. 

I was comparing the adulation of Hitler to the attempt to induce an adulation of Boris. It's the adulation of the supreme leader / dictator that is wrong and anti-democratic.

And characteristic of both Communist and Fascist systems.

Edited by Surfer

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43 minutes ago, Surfer said:

I don't. 

I was comparing the adulation of Hitler to the attempt to induce an adulation of Boris. It's the adulation of the supreme leader / dictator that is wrong and anti-democratic.

And characteristic of both Communist and Fascist systems.

Is it any different to the way Corbyn was portrayed as some sort of deity by his followers? Like it or not Boris has a charisma about him and is largely popular amongst the electorate, so large sections will be hoping his health situation improves 

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44 minutes ago, Surfer said:

I don't. 

I was comparing the adulation of Hitler to the attempt to induce an adulation of Boris. It's the adulation of the supreme leader / dictator that is wrong and anti-democratic.

And characteristic of both Communist and Fascist systems.

When you compare the adulation of Hitler to a small van with a poster of Boris Johnson and then claim that this is representing some characteristic of communist and fascist systems then you are somewhat getting carried away with the hyperbole. 

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6 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

True she’s not president formally in the same way as Trump or Macron, but she is de facto leader in all but name, as was Barnier before her. If they were simply the civil service they she wouldn’t be making speeches about issues such as the EU’s future direction, as it wouldn’t be her place to decide. It would be her job to simply enact what others told her and the commission to do. I’ve never heard the head of the UK civil service giving speeches regarding political decisions in the same way I have the EU Commission President 

No.

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4 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Is it any different to the way Corbyn was portrayed as some sort of deity by his followers? Like it or not Boris has a charisma about him and is largely popular amongst the electorate, so large sections will be hoping his health situation improves 

I think everyone hopes he gets better. But I think you over estimate his popularity. Once you see through the Johnson **** you can't unsee it. 

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26 minutes ago, Herman said:

I think everyone hopes he gets better. But I think you over estimate his popularity. Once you see through the Johnson **** you can't unsee it. 

He was popular enough to win seats Labour had held for generations. Yes Corbyns ineptitude helped but until this election in most of those old industrial heartlands you could have pinned a red rosette on a donkey and it would have safely won the seat 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

When you compare the adulation of Hitler to a small van with a poster of Boris Johnson and then claim that this is representing some characteristic of communist and fascist systems then you are somewhat getting carried away with the hyperbole. 

You have to admit that the way the press and the **** in the van behave has a certain Kim Yong Un stench to it. 

Edited by Herman

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40 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

No.

Sorry, I got him and Juncker mixed up. Rest of the post still stands though

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18 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

He was popular enough to win seats Labour had held for generations. Yes Corbyns ineptitude helped but until this election in most of those old industrial heartlands you could have pinned a red rosette on a donkey and it would have safely won the seat 

Cummings knows how to win a vote. Keep it simple. Don't bore people with facts. Treat the public with little respect. Get the main media on your side. 

Also Corbyn was an enormous factor in losing old labour seats. 

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago Hoola Han said:

You love the attention babe xx

It's the way of a stalker !

Edited by SwindonCanary
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9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Where else in the world is the head of the civil service a president?

It's just a job title you ****ing moron

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9 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

True she’s not president

Great, at last we are making progress.

Let's move on and discuss this vast superstate that lives only in your imagination. EU has around 47,000 employees to support a population of over 500 million. That sounds a lot until you consider the city of Birmingham has around 35,000 emplyees to support 1 million residents. As for the so called massive budget it amounts to around 165 Billion Euros, which works out at roughly £250 per head. Hardly excessive, and pretty much appropriate to a trading block. For example HMRC have indicated that the UK would require an additional 50,000 customs workers in the UK alone to manage UK borders on leaving the SM and CU.

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