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Perhaps the Tories underfunding of the NHS explains some of the challenges it now faces and why Germany can 7 times more people?

image.png.a2bc78e2b19872353e01469a40f9e2e3.png

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13 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

OK   Maybe I phrased it wrong (it was not lying ) I should have wrote some of our ventilates

It was lying because what you said was a lie.

 

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Your first post you said we wouldn't have to share ventilators under EU rules. Then when Swindon posts evidence of your lie you switch to say what is wrong with sharing 

Your argument is about as coherent as a saloon bar's expert. 

Give it up mate. You try to stick everything onto Brexit. You still can't let go can you even when the world has moved on. 

You try and have a dig at the Germans whenever possible. I imagine you sitting in your living room, with all your Trump pictures hanging up, waving your little Union Jack and hoping we win the war. It’s 2020 mate, not 1944 👊🏻👍🏻

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1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

It was lying because what you said was a lie.

 

And you are lying because I never said it  !

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1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

You were saying I was lying,  all I said was we would have to share, now you are jumping on the moral bandwagon !  You really are someone who's got it in for me !

Sorry for hurting your feelings Swindo. Hope you’re keeping well mate 👍🏻

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10 hours ago, BigFish said:

Farage, Hannan & Gove are economists are they?? This comes from the murky world of Brexit, various right wing streams of libertarian ideology. To that list you can add Hunt and the Taxpayers Alliance and many of the leading Brexiteers in the Conservative party and even the cabinet. They really thought this possible, it is only events that has taken away their opportunity.

As for being honest enough to campaign in an election for it, although they happily started propagandising for it, it is these ideas that have led to privitisation by stealth, underfunding, the removal of funding for nurse training, the axing of 17,000 beds and the running of a system with 100,000 vacancies. These ideas cause harm, whether they can be follwed through of not.

I’ve answered most of these points in previous posts, you’re free to go back and read them.

I’ll add I think the healthcare system is underfunded, but to say that’s it being privatised by stealth is a long shot. The Healthcare system has never had enough money, Blair gave the impression he was funding it but as we have since found out it was mostly on tick through his PFI’s.

Perhaps you’d prefer the German model of healthcare, in which people rely on insurance schemes, even if they are not for profit government run ones? 

You accuse Boris of having no opinion of his own, and doing simply what will won him the most votes, so why on earth would he privatise the NHS, knowing that is possibly the biggest vote loser you could get in this country?

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Italian politicians took out a full-page advertisement in one of Germany’s most prestigious newspapers on Tuesday as they urged parsimonious northern Europe to do more to help the south through the coronavirus crisis, amid an increasingly bitter rift within the EU.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, BigFish said:

Perhaps the Tories underfunding of the NHS explains some of the challenges it now faces and why Germany can 7 times more people?

image.png.a2bc78e2b19872353e01469a40f9e2e3.png

If you are comparing the funding of Germany Vs UK healthcare you have to remember that a big chunk of German funding is through private schemes run by companies and large organisations that cover employees and their families. There is a small amount of private funding in the UK but nothing on the scale of the German model. Personally, I like the German model because it puts power in the hands of the consumer and forces healthcare providers to work harder for business But I understand that this is not the way healthcare is delivered in the UK. 

So if you want German levels of funding, and the funding has to come from somewhere, you have to ask yourself are you therefore prepared to have a similar funding model to Germany. This model also means a two-tier health care service as the private funding uses its leverage to get better service. Is that something acceptable to the UK? Given the NHS politics, I doubt that it is. We like the current model because we deem it fairer even though it isn't the most efficient model for delivering services. And there doesn't seem a way out of the problem because it's taboo to suggest changes to the NHS model and is career-ending for a politician to attempt change. 

Edited by Rock The Boat

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2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

If you are comparing the funding of Germany Vs UK healthcare you have to remember that a big chunk of German funding is through private schemes run by companies and large organisations that cover employees and their families. There is a small amount of private funding in the UK but nothing on the scale of the German model. 

 

Health expenditure as a share of GDP , Germany top chart with no difference in private/voluntary funding with UK.

Health-at-a-Glance-EUROPE-2016-Briefing-Note-GERMANY.pdf

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

If you are comparing the funding of Germany Vs UK healthcare you have to remember that a big chunk of German funding is through private schemes run by companies and large organisations that cover employees and their families. There is a small amount of private funding in the UK but nothing on the scale of the German model. Personally, I like the German model because it puts power in the hands of the consumer and forces healthcare providers to work harder for business But I understand that this is not the way healthcare is delivered in the UK. 

So if you want German levels of funding, and the funding has to come from somewhere, you have to ask yourself are you therefore prepared to have a similar funding model to Germany. This model also means a two-tier health care service as the private funding uses its leverage to get better service. Is that something acceptable to the UK? Given the NHS politics, I doubt that it is. We like the current model because we deem it fairer even though it isn't the most efficient model for delivering services. And there doesn't seem a way out of the problem because it's taboo to suggest changes to the NHS model and is career-ending for a politician to attempt change. 

No, the point is the government could and should have funded the NHS to levels comparable to Germany.

Instead the government made a political decision to fund the NHS at a lower level which is now having repercussions. A level indeed below the EU average.

Edited by BigFish

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3 hours ago, BigFish said:

No, the point is the government could and should have funded the NHS to levels comparable to Germany.

Instead the government made a political decision to fund the NHS at a lower level which is now having repercussions. A level indeed below the EU average.

Well that's the choice of the people. Your ire should be directed at the people around you who decided they don't want to fund the NHS to the levels that you think they should. And when you think about it, we have the option of private health care if we want to pay for it, but most people don't do so.  

Really, it's not so much the government but the people deciding they don't want to pay more for health care than they do already. 

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2 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Well that's the choice of the people. Your ire should be directed at the people around you who decided they don't want to fund the NHS to the levels that you think they should. And when you think about it, we have the option of private health care if we want to pay for it, but most people don't do so.  

Really, it's not so much the government but the people deciding they don't want to pay more for health care than they do already. 

.......and that is why the clock is ticking on this government already

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Private medical care will give you a nice room, possibly faster elective treatment but it's always the NHS that will do the heavy lifting and save your life. Just a fact.

 

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4 hours ago, BigFish said:

No, the point is the government could and should have funded the NHS to levels comparable to Germany.

Instead the government made a political decision to fund the NHS at a lower level which is now having repercussions. A level indeed below the EU average.

I don’t think anybody would argue the NHS could do with much more funding, however most EU countries healthcare systems are more expensive to run, due to private interests clipping the ticket along the way. For instance the Germans pay much more per head but life expectancy is the same as the UK. It’s not that they spend more than the UK because morally it’s the right thing to do, it’s because they’re forced to due to inefficiencies within their system. I personally would like to see our healthcare system better funded, and would happily pay a little extra tax to do so, but there does come a point unfortunately where you start to spend excessive amounts for very little improvement, and it’s our job as a society to work out where the line is

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, ricardo said:

image.png.0a1c97e867971d3ee8a4c2c6b562c6d6.png

So two things.

Italy and Spain have been said to have “first class” healthcare systems, yet spend less than UK. So if they do have what is claimed - how? 
 

The US system is obscene. And anyone who wants the NHS to adopt its model is either nuts, or has his pockets full of insurer’s or others medical related company’s pockets. 
 

The real question that must be answered by governments is why are medical costs rising so fast and not driven down by technical innovation?  They are in almost every other industry so why not this one? 

Edited by Surfer

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12 minutes ago, Surfer said:

So two things.

Italy and Spain have been said to have “first class” healthcare systems, yet spend less than UK. So if they do have what is claimed - how? 
 

The US system is obscene. And anyone who wants the NHS to adopt its model is either nuts, or has his pockets full of insurer’s or others medical related company’s pockets. 
 

The real question that must be answered by governments is why are medical costs rising so fast and not driven down by technical innovation?  They are in almost every other industry so why not this one? 

Ageing demographics and ever more capability to intervene drives 1st world healthcare  costs.

Totally agree with you about US .. yet many of the yanks believe they have a good system ! 

I could tell you some horror stories from the US when the insurance runs out (reaches limit) through no fault of the insured. Madness.

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On 04/04/2020 at 16:46, A Load of Squit said:

It's more than 60 days since 31/1/2020.

Has anyone seen one of those special 50p's?

 

No, aren't they being minted in France or was that just the new look (i.e old crusty looking) passports?

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I think we should have a clap for the supermarket checkout staff, the delivery drivers, the shelf-stackers, the bus drivers the people who are keeping the wheels of the country turning, you know, the people that voted for Brexit. The one's who are told they shouldn't have a vote because they are too stupid. 

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

I think we should have a clap for the supermarket checkout staff, the delivery drivers, the shelf-stackers, the bus drivers the people who are keeping the wheels of the country turning, you know, the people that voted for Brexit. The one's who are told they shouldn't have a vote because they are too stupid. 

I’m sure plenty of those professions had Remain voters too, you simpleton.

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On 04/04/2020 at 07:46, A Load of Squit said:

It's more than 60 days since 31/1/2020.

Has anyone seen one of those special 50p's?

Bit of a c@ck up in production. Gave the contract to a Turkish company but due to a contract translation error they came back round. After the black passports fiasco, Boris and Cummings sequestered the entire production run as it was too embarrassing even for them to spin an explanation. 

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5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

I think we should have a clap for the supermarket checkout staff, the delivery drivers, the shelf-stackers, the bus drivers the people who are keeping the wheels of the country turning, you know, the people that voted for Brexit. The one's who are told they shouldn't have a vote because they are too stupid. 

This is a nice sentiment, regardless of the way people voted 🙂

All those people are doing a valuable job 

As did the construction workers who built the supermarkets, warehouses, roads etc. Like me. Can I have a round of applause, please 🙂. And maybe one  for my  Romanian mates who helped me 

Also the builders merchants, material manufacturers, vehicle manufacturers and sellers/leasers, repair mechanics and countless others 

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3 hours ago, Herman said:

A nice bit of cooperation.👍

 

It would be daft to not take advantage of the scheme while we’re still paying towards the budget would it not?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

I think we should have a clap for the supermarket checkout staff, the delivery drivers, the shelf-stackers, the bus drivers the people who are keeping the wheels of the country turning, you know, the people that voted for Brexit. The one's who are told they shouldn't have a vote because they are too stupid. 

I think that even under the current restrictions you are entirely at liberty to clap for these people as long as you are at least 2m away from anyone else who thinks the same way, which quite frankly I don't think will be too much of a problem.

As a staunch Brexiteer yourself I just wonder (out of sheer morbid curiosity!) which of those four categories do you fall into, checkout staff, delivery driver, shelf stacker or bus driver? My money would be on delivery driver but that's just a wild guess and no doubt @ricardo will be telling me that it's not a value bet 😀

Edited by Creative Midfielder

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