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The Brexit Thread

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42 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Have to look on the bright side.

Corbyn and his toxic clan should be consigned to the recycling bin. Electing Corbyn as Labour leader was a catastrophic error.

Johnson now has a large majority - that's good as we know he's a very soft Brexiter - so he can now ditch the ERG and align or mirror with the EU - best way to save the car industry (and others), fishing and have as seamless as possible a NI border. Given that he has a lot of ex-Labour seats - and he's keen on a lot of investment I might even go so far as to say he's domestically in the traditional centre ground - even centre left!

Whatever happens now with Brexit and the fall out the Quitters will just have to suck it up. I suspect all that glistens won't be  gold. 

Scotland is obviously leaving the UK. NI won't be too far behind.

I'll give it 10 years before the rump UK realizes it's global influence has seriously waned  - and another 10 after that to 'rejoin' - late as ever as in 1973 - a reformed and changed EU.

I admire your optimism but...

The only soft Brexit, the variety that really limits economic damage, is doing a Norway and staying in the single market, with freedom of movement. That (especially keeping freedom of movement) negates the result of the referendum. it is in effect Brexit In Name Only, and in that case the UK might as well stay in the  EU. I cannot see it happening.

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As Feed the Wolf said, as a staunch Labour man, I am so disappointed but have to accept the country has said quite obviously that they do not want our policies. Brexit played a massive part obviously but in the end it was down to that word "Corbyn".

We move on and I'm done with arguing with people on here about it as I can see some still want to prolong the sometimes nasty debate.

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1 hour ago, Bagster said:

@PurpleCanary

No purple you have learnt nothing

You should say

In my opinion

You are making a statement of fact for something we do not know

You mean that in your opinion I should have said '...in my opinion...'🤓 Off for a walk.😎

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

City 1st was a nasty little sociopath who got his comeuppance. No sympathy from me. 

Says the poster who likes to goad people over their mental health.

Hopefully the Tory victory will bring a little joy to your insecure little life 😀👍🏻

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21 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I admire your optimism but...

The only soft Brexit, the variety that really limits economic damage, is doing a Norway and staying in the single market, with freedom of movement. That (especially keeping freedom of movement) negates the result of the referendum. it is in effect Brexit In Name Only, and in that case the UK might as well stay in the  EU. I cannot see it happening.

It wasn't the policies, it was Corbyn and Brexit.

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Anyway, you should all have had a very profitable election if you had followed my tips. Sell LDem buy Tory.😀

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52 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I admire your optimism but...

The only soft Brexit, the variety that really limits economic damage, is doing a Norway and staying in the single market, with freedom of movement. That (especially keeping freedom of movement) negates the result of the referendum. it is in effect Brexit In Name Only, and in that case the UK might as well stay in the  EU. I cannot see it happening.

The thing about Boris is that he doesn't really have any principals - he just wants to be popular (oddly the polar opposite of Corbyn)! His principals only revolve in what he needs to say and do to get into and remain in power.  

Most think Corbyn was a secret Brexiter and Boris a secret Remainer (he wasn't worried about immigration etc). If Boris had thought his path to power had been through Remain  he would of campaigned for it without a moment's further thought.

Now he's got a majority the ERG are quite dispensable along with any other fellow travellers principled or otherwise he's used to arrive at his position. In this respect Farage is right - he will betray everybody!

However - to be and remain 'popular' - especially in the North and Midlands he will now pivot to the least damaging form of Brexit he can find 'off the shelf' from the EU - 'Brexit' is and was just a state of mind for most (the EU a scapegoat  for problems closer to home);  a notion of (not the nuanced reality) of sovereignty - hence they'll happily believe we've left on the 31st of January and move on whereas in reality we will be , and remain, heavily engaged with the EU as trade partner for decades as we must. 

Edited by Yellow Fever

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9 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Climate change the same, the notion that the liar can mend any fences with anybody concerned about climate change or even more modest concerns about the environment is frankly laughable. Austerity same again - there can be no disputing that the liar has won a victory in terms of seats but that is the result of our bizarre electoral system which means that a party winning somewhere in the low 40s% of votes wins 55-60% of the seats whilst the other let's say 54-58% of voters end up with 43/45% of the seats.

Now that's great if you are part of the winning 40/45% of the population but it's definitely not a recipe for mending fences and working together, especially when the winning party is at one extreme of the political spectrum and offers absolutely nothing to the other 55/60%.

No @Creative Midfielder, this has nothing to do the FPTP electoral system. We progressives lost, and lost big. The reasons are clear. There was a failure to present any kind of argument that resonated with the electorate. If Labour had exceeded 35% and the Liberal Democrats exceeded 15% you might have had an argument.

It is not about election day though, this has been coming since the Referendum. The Conservative Remainers, now paying for it with their demise, failed to grasp the opportunities for a 2nd referendum when they had it and now it, and they, have gone. Corbyn's ridiculous abivalency on Brexit failed dismally. The Labour manifesto contained some popular policies but was less than a sum of its parts. The Liberal Democrats remain, quite rightly untrusted. Anti-semitism was never dealt with, and neither was the question of competency.

Every cloud has a silver lining though, selfishly I am financially better off under Johnson's tax plans as opposed to Corbyn's, it looks like neo-liberal eceonomics is dead for a generation in this country and all the Brexiteers excuses are gone. They broke it, they own it.

 

 

Edited by BigFish
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2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Every cloud has a silver lining though, selfishly I am financially better off under Johnson's tax plans as opposed to Corbyn's, it looks like neo-liberal eceonomics is dead for a generation in this country and all the Brexiteers excuses are gone. They broke it, they own it.

 

 

My thoughts exactly!

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I guess we can say that at least the democratic decision by the bulk of the country can be actioned now. 

No idea if that's the right or wrong decision for the wellbeing of the country as a whole, but at least we made the decision.

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Currently raging at the Corbynite cultists on twitter refusing to admit they are the problem.

People like this claim to care about helping ordinary people but actually stand in the way of that happening. Blair actually made a material difference to the lives of working people because he realised you can't change things without winning elections. Corbyn has done **** all to actually make life better for people but these middle-class Marxists who never moved past their simple 6th form politics and who don't actually need a Labour government to help them fawn over him and his perceived purity. Sickening.

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2 hours ago, Bagster said:

Yes, but this is the nature of things

52% also didn't equate to half of the country

But you would've accepted the win

Just like you would've accepted 47%

Turnout was also only 67% so honestly your clutching at straws

No, I was pointing out that RTB was wrong (again). 😀

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The one thing I've learnt about the 'left ' from this forum is this

"Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others"

They Couldn't win a raffle, if they bought all the tickets!!

 

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9 minutes ago, BigFish said:

No @Creative Midfielder, this has nothing to do the FPTP electoral system. We progressives lost, and lost big. The reasons are clear. There was a failure to present any kind of argument that resonated with the electorate. If Labour had exceeded 35% and the Liberal Democrats exceeded 15% you might have had an argument.

It is not about election day though, this has been coming since the Referendum. The Conservative Remainers, now paying for it with their demise, failed to grasp the opportunities for a 2nd referendum when they had it and now it, and they, have gone. Corbyn's ridiculous abivalency on Brexit failed dismally. The Labour manifesto contained some popular policies but was less than a sum of its parts. The Liberal Democrats remain, quite rightly untrusted. Anti-semitism was never dealt with, and neither was the question of competency.

 

I agree that this has been coming for some time but I also think the FPTP system has much to answer for.

However in that particular post I wasn't blaming FPTP for the result so much as supporting the report from John Curtiss that the idea that achieving a massive majority will do nothing to end the disputes and especially the deep divisions in the country. I think he was referring specifically to Brexit but he could just have easily been talking about climate change or the economy - you remember I'm sure the decades when the economy was the all important issue in elections.

IMO the main reason the progressives lost is simple and obvious - they were divided and for that I blame Labour entirely. Their refusal to work with the progressive parties on top of their own incompetence in a number of areas meant we never had a serious chance of winning.

But although you rightly say that Lib Dems remain untrusted but over 3.5m people voted for them and were rewarded with 11 seats. The Greens, I would suggest, are perhaps more trusted by many people but the 865,000 that voted for them were rewarded by one seat.

865,000 for 1 MP!!! Compared to the under 40,000 needed to elect a Tory MP. Goes against the grain but in an attempt at fairness the Brexit Company got nearly 650,000 votes and got nothing, whereas the equivalent number of Tory votes would have produced 16 seats by my simple arithmetic.

Unfairness on that scale IMO means the divisions just continue to fester and get deeper, and of course its not just the English nationalists that have won big. FPTP has helped all the nationalists in the Union especially the Scots and this has been also been brewing for some time.

The Scots are on their way out of the union, with the Northern Irish not too far behind - those divides have definitely been re-inforced by the election. FPTP is not the only problem but it is an major enabler and magnifier of the deep fractures in our society.

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24 minutes ago, king canary said:

Currently raging at the Corbynite cultists on twitter refusing to admit they are the problem.

People like this claim to care about helping ordinary people but actually stand in the way of that happening. Blair actually made a material difference to the lives of working people because he realised you can't change things without winning elections. Corbyn has done **** all to actually make life better for people but these middle-class Marxists who never moved past their simple 6th form politics and who don't actually need a Labour government to help them fawn over him and his perceived purity. Sickening.

History repeats itself more regulrly than I had realised. The sad thing is that idealistic left wing politicians like Corbyn and Mac are not prepared to present policy in a rational and measured way, the result being they are unelectabe and those they seek to help never get the benefit of them being in power. People like Corbyn should be ashamed of themselves, if they cared so much they wouldnt have sacrificed their core support on the alter of political dogma. 

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2 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Who would have thought old Labour Contemptible Dennis Skinner would have been skinned......?

a sad day for parliament, always good value

Edited by Van wink

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Looking on the bright side for those crying into their beer, I think you will find Boris will follow a much more liberal agenda than many of you fear.

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9 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I agree that this has been coming for some time but I also think the FPTP system has much to answer for.

However in that particular post I wasn't blaming FPTP for the result so much as supporting the report from John Curtiss that the idea that achieving a massive majority will do nothing to end the disputes and especially the deep divisions in the country. I think he was referring specifically to Brexit but he could just have easily been talking about climate change or the economy - you remember I'm sure the decades when the economy was the all important issue in elections.

IMO the main reason the progressives lost is simple and obvious - they were divided and for that I blame Labour entirely. Their refusal to work with the progressive parties on top of their own incompetence in a number of areas meant we never had a serious chance of winning.

But although you rightly say that Lib Dems remain untrusted but over 3.5m people voted for them and were rewarded with 11 seats. The Greens, I would suggest, are perhaps more trusted by many people but the 865,000 that voted for them were rewarded by one seat.

865,000 for 1 MP!!! Compared to the under 40,000 needed to elect a Tory MP. Goes against the grain but in an attempt at fairness the Brexit Company got nearly 650,000 votes and got nothing, whereas the equivalent number of Tory votes would have produced 16 seats by my simple arithmetic.

Unfairness on that scale IMO means the divisions just continue to fester and get deeper, and of course its not just the English nationalists that have won big. FPTP has helped all the nationalists in the Union especially the Scots and this has been also been brewing for some time.

The Scots are on their way out of the union, with the Northern Irish not too far behind - those divides have definitely been re-inforced by the election. FPTP is not the only problem but it is an major enabler and magnifier of the deep fractures in our society.

Looking a numbers like that leads to madness I am afraid. There are only two real questions: 1) Whether Parliament reflects the will of the people 2) Whether Parliament makes good decisions. You have to admit that on 1, it probably does. For 2 we will need to wait but I suspect the answer will be negative.

Progressives didn't lose because they were divided. They lost because they didn't have a credible narrative to sell, and popular policies to back that up. The SNP demonstrated what is possible with a strong communicator as leader, a clear message and popular policies to back that up.

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2 minutes ago, Van wink said:

a sad day for parliament, always good value

The belligerent 'Beast of Bolsover' is no more.....A proper Labour politician who for nearly 4 decades and although not my sway of party, will be missed.....He made I larf many a time......Ta ra Dennis the Menace..... 😉

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7 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Looking on the bright side for those crying into their beer, I think you will find Boris will follow a much more liberal agenda than many of you fear.

I'll be out in the City tonight for a few beers in a couple of Wetherspoon boozers and then maybe venture onto a club.....I'll probably see quite  a few students spending their shekels in these 'Spoons' bars who voted for Corbyn and maybe witness them sobbing into their San Miguel's.....How ironic really, as 'Mr Wetherspoon' Tim Martin is a Brexiteer and critic of the EU.......Oh well.....

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6 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Looking a numbers like that leads to madness I am afraid. There are only two real questions: 1) Whether Parliament reflects the will of the people 2) Whether Parliament makes good decisions. You have to admit that on 1, it probably does. For 2 we will need to wait but I suspect the answer will be negative.

Progressives didn't lose because they were divided. They lost because they didn't have a credible narrative to sell, and popular policies to back that up. The SNP demonstrated what is possible with a strong communicator as leader, a clear message and popular policies to back that up.

Unusually @BigFish I find myself totally disagreeing with you.

The will of the people has become an almost meaningless phrase but I don't accept that a Government with a huge majority based on a 43% vote share is a genuine or appropriate representation of what the electorate voted for. Whether this parliament make good decisions we will have to wait and see but I am equally negative. More importantly looking back over the however many Parliaments (produced by our weird system) that you've lived through, how many do you honesty believe have on balance taken good decisions? I would suggest very few, and even fewer if you look only at the decisions they actually took and ignore the decisions they ducked (like any decision at all which might involve some short term unpoularity for a longer term benefit!).

It is true that the SNP demonstrated what is possible with a strong communicator as leader, a clear message and popular policies if you are already a long established and dominant party. The Greens demonstrated that having a strong communicator as leader, a clear message and popular policies is meaningless in the English two party system (unless it happens to be one of the two major parties whichit  certainly wasn't in this case!).

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1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

Alan Johnson telling it like it is:

 

From what I'm hearing this morning Momentum are showing no contrition and its going to be more of the same. 

Edited by Van wink

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8 minutes ago, Van wink said:

From what I'm hearing this morning Momentum are showing no contrition and its going to be more of the same. 

Doubling down for one more push. They never learn.

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48 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Seems like PR wouldn't have given you relief either @Creative Midfielder!

image.png.daabf84935d1532247905cb21a49f5cc.png

I wasn't really expecting relief, but clearly it would have given us a Parliament much more closely representating what the electorate actually voted for and I'd have settled for that very happily 😀

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6 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Doubling down for one more push. They never learn.

No they dont, exactly the same as Militant........sadly for them there is a long and tough road ahead before a new Neil Kinnock comes along and exposes them as a cult, which is all they are.

Edited by Van wink
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