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The Brexit Thread

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The antiSemite mantra isn't going to work. Once again, the election is being polarised into silly arguments and misrepresentations, I think the Yanks call it obfuscation, so that Johnson doesn't have to explain his lack of policies for "One Britain" (we all know what that One is=1%). He is just making appearances at stupid events like craft fayres just to get his one of the people image promoted.

Of course he is enjoying the pressure on Corbyn about the antisemite claims. I think Corbyn should ask what Johnson's policy is on hitting women.

People pretend they understand politics and can make judgements but they are being deliberately conned out of hearing and understanding Policies.

Johnson will mumble on tonight, try and crack a few jokes and avoid saying anything while attacking Corbyn rather than any policy he might be asked about from the floor.

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

He is in the grip of Momentum which has deeply anti Semitic views, thatÔÇÖs why he is unable to deal with problem. In the unlikely event that he wins a majority government it will be run by Momentum, a group of left wing extremists who will ruin┬áthis country. The Labour Party that you and I know, the one that kicked out the Militant Tendency sadly doesnÔÇÖt exist atm.

The shame is that a few on here are so anti Tory that they are prepared to ignore the cancer at the heart of Labour atm. It needs to be challenged at all levels to return the Labour Party to what it should be, and one which I could then support.

Antisemitism has become a weapon used by both sides- I just don't believe many of the Tory party/Tory voters making a huge stink about it would care anywhere near as much if they didn't think it would score political points.

Equally, I'm really tired of people on the left minimizing the issue and telling Jewish people or people with these concerns that they should just hold their nose and vote for the Labour party because it doesn't matter as much as other issues.

Politics in this country is a horrible, ****ty mess right now and I wouldn't blame anyone for spoiling their ballots.

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6 hours ago, kick it off said:

Was Etchingham really trying to turn the Queen's speech into a line of attack? I don't watch the Queen's speech as I have no interest in being lectured by some no-mark who has been born "better" than others. I prefer to listen to people who have actually achieved something a bit more substantial than simply being born and milking the state for a life of privelege whilst giving very little back. Sounds like Corbyn has the right idea on Christmas, why spoil it by listening to a parasite with no experience of real life who wouldn't **** on us if we were on fire?

Viva la Republic

But why lie about it and pretend you watch it when you don't? Why doesn't Corbyn say what he feels about the Queen in the same way that you just did? That is the point.

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But why lie about it and pretend you watch it when you don't? Why doesn't Corbyn say what he feels about the Queen in the same way that you just did? That is the point.

Because if he has to go and see her about forming a Government, she might call him two faced. It seems to be the in expression at the moment. Just waiting for Johnson to ask Trump to copy that phrase and use all next week.

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Andrew Neil tells Johnson "it's not too late" for election interview

The BBC's Andrew Neil says he wants to quiz Boris Johnson about whether he can be trusted.

The Conservative leader is - so far - the only main party leader not to submit to an election grilling on BBC One.

image.jpeg.673cb6dcd614079b8f46290672325e5a.jpeg

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18 minutes ago, king canary said:

Antisemitism has become a weapon used by both sides- I just don't believe many of the Tory party/Tory voters making a huge stink about it would care anywhere near as much if they didn't think it would score political points.

Equally, I'm really tired of people on the left minimizing the issue and telling Jewish people or people with these concerns that they should just hold their nose and vote for the Labour party because it doesn't matter as much as other issues.

Politics in this country is a horrible, ****ty mess right now and I wouldn't blame anyone for spoiling their ballots.

Spot on - apart from spoiling your ballot.

I'm sure there are a huge number of people with very similar views and yet most respond by either choosing the lesser of the two evils or not voting at all.

Nothing will improve this horrible mess of our politics until a lot more people reject the binary choice between the two unpleasant failed major parties on offer and vote for the minor parties who will one day (hopefully) will give our electoral system the upgrade that is 100 years overdue. When/if (and sadly it's probably a big if) we have a fit for purpose democracy then we will have a much better and wider choice of parties, and an extreme right (or left) wing government like the current one and potentially the next one as well, would be almost impossible. We would have governments that actually had some sort of genuine justification that they represented the 'will of the people'.

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31 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Spot on - apart from spoiling your ballot.

I'm sure there are a hu´╗┐ge number of people with very similar views and yet most respond by either choosing the lesser of the two evils ´╗┐or not voting at all.

Nothing will improve this horrible mess of our politics until a lot more people reject the binary choice between the two unpleasant failed major parties on offer and vote for the minor parties who will one day (hopefully) will give our electoral system the upgrade that is 100 years overdue. When/if (and sadly it's probably a big if) we have a fit for purpo´╗┐se democracy´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐ the´╗┐n we will have a muc´╗┐h better and wid´╗┐er choice of parties, and an extreme right (or left) wing government´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐ like the current one and potentially the next one as well, would be almost impossible. We would have´╗┐´╗┐ governments that actually had some sort of genuine justification that they represented the 'will of the people'.

FPTP has a lot to answer for.

I would love to know how many people will vote Labour/Tory this election who'd really have preferred to vote Green/Lib Dem/BP but didn't because they don't want to 'waste their vote.' 

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If you look at all the polls its best not what the percentages are but the difference from 2017. And unfortunately for Labour, they seem to be the losers. The Tory vote would seem to be holding at 2017 levels but Labour seems to be up to 8/9% down. I assume it is Brexit.

I  cannot see that altering in the next week and tonight obviously Johnson will concentrate solely, if allowed, on Brexit.

It is looking more like a probable 40 seat Tory majority.

Hopefully once we are out of the EU and no doubt floundering financially, the world is heading to towards not much better than recession after all, the country will find out exactly what this egotistical rogue is really like.

With the likelihood, of Corbyn being ousted by losing two elections, it might be interesting to hear addresses at the Despatch Box which has been boring since May/Corbyn.

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11 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Quite right, VW. 47% of Jewish people in the UK have said they would consider emigrating if Labour got into power. 

That's almost half of all Jewish people in the country. 

I don't know of any % of POC threatening to leave the country because of a Boris Johnson government. 

 

51 minutes ago, king canary said:

Antisemitism has become a weapon used by both sides- I just don't believe many of the Tory party/Tory voters making a huge stink about it would care anywhere near as much if they didn't think it would score political points.

Equally, I'm really tired of people on the left minimizing the issue and telling Jewish people or people with these concerns that they should just hold their nose and vote for the Labour party because it doesn't matter as much as other issues.

Politics in this country is a horrible, ****ty mess right now and I wouldn't blame anyone for spoiling their ballots.

 

I'm equally fed up with this witch hunt. The far left and far right are two sides of the same coin - simple moronic solutions without the capacity to see beyond their 'faith'. The same person that becomes a far left intolerant lefty in another family grows up to be a far right intolerant righty. Probably due to too much inbreeding and not enough new (immigrant) genes.

I note there are no comments on here from anybody who is actually Jewish - just point scoring 'in their name' or flippant quips.

However let me give you a little insight from my family on Brexit. The 'older' generation' than me (and well educated retired first generation professionals well into their dotage ) generally voted Brexit - the 80M 'Turks' actually was quoted to me - it frightened them as was intended - but where then harangued by their children (all now in their late 50s - yes and fully Jewish) in dismay pointing out that they themselves had been 'welcomed' into this country as immigrants - growing up in the in the East End.     

The argument here is to get some balance.

Yes I'm sure a lot of Jews consider leaving - I consider many things most of which I quickly reject as absurd. However I don't play political games with it. A plague on all the racists and anti-semites in all the political parties. Fully examine THEM ALL.

 

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5 minutes ago, king canary said:

FPTP has a lot to answer for.

I would love to know how many people will vote Labour/Tory this election who'd really have preferred to vote Green/Lib Dem/BP but didn't because they don't want to 'waste their vote.' 

Yes exactly, and the real irony is that wasting their vote is exactly what they are actually going to do by voting for a party they don't believe in - whether they vote for a winning candidate or not they still won't get what they actually want or believe in.

To be fair I've done the same for much of my voting life but I gave up on that approach quite a while ago now when I realised that nothing was ever going to improve if we stick with this two party system. So nowadays I vote for what I believe in and consider to be the party with the best policies both for the country and myself in the full knowledge that my candidate will not win (though in the Euros with a properly democratic system we did win some seats!!) but in the hope that others will eventually do the same and we can drag this country and its politicans kicking and screaming into the 21st century┬á ­čśÇ

But until an awful lot of people believe that change is possible and take a bit of risk to make it happen we are stuck with this embarassing shambles of two useless failed parties taking buggins turn to have a go at screwing things up Ôś╣´ŞĆ

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54 minutes ago, ricardo said:

New Ipsos/Mori

44/32

Not a real company, just a bad scrabble rack. 

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47 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

It is looking more like a probable 40 seat Tory majority.

Hopefully once we are out of the EU and no doubt floundering financially, the world is heading to towards not much better than recession after all, the country will find out exactly what this egotistical rogue is really like.

I'm sure you're right but sadly that is way too late - I'm sure you know your history well enough to know that once fascists manage to get themselves elected they are normally extremely difficult (to put it politely) to remove from office again.

Edited by Creative Midfielder

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3 hours ago, Van wink said:

He is in the grip of Momentum which has deeply anti Semitic views

Is that the same Momentum chaired by Jon Lansman who still observes Jewish holidays, grew up in the Jewish Orthodox community, had a Bar Mitzvah and worked in a Kibbutz in the Negev?

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50 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'm sure you're right but sadly that is way too late - I'm sure you know your history well enough to know that once fascists manage to get themselves elected they are normally extremely difficult (to put it politely) to remove from office again.

Aye. You only have to look at Turkey and Hungary to see where this populism leads to. 

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After this poll who's saying I'm voting for the wrong guy ?

The People-Power Index, from Change.org, ranks all of the countryÔÇÖs 650 MPs based on a number of criteria, including their availability to constituents, participation in Parliament and whether they listen to the public.

The rankings rate the top Members of Parliament who listened to and engaged with their constituents the best in the 2017 to 2019 period, most of whom are now candidates seeking re-election in the General Election

This is how every MP from the 2017 to 2019 period ranked from best to worst:

Wayne David - Caerphilly, Labour  Justin Tomlinson - North Swindon, ConservativeCaroline Nokes - Romsey and Southampton North, ConservativeJim McMahon - Oldham West and Royton, LabourTracey Crouch - Chatham and

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22 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Is that the same Momentum chaired by Jon Lansman who still observes Jewish holidays, grew up in the Jewish Orthodox community, had a Bar Mitzvah and worked in a Kibbutz in the Negev?

I dare say the Torygraph and the Daily Mail may have forgotten to mention that, an entirely innocent mistake I'm sure ­čĄú­čĄú, and in any case VW has highly developed blindspots for inconvenient facts which don't fit his preconceptions/prejudices.

 

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

FPTP has a lot to answer for.

I would love to know how many people will vote Labour/Tory this election who'd really have preferred to vote Green/Lib Dem/BP but didn't because they don't want to 'waste their vote.' 

I voted Lib Dem in 2010, and Nick Cleggs alliance with the Tories decimated his party, leaving them with just 8 seats in the 2015 election (down from 57 seats in 2010). Primarily because he had to abandon most of his manifesto to align with the Tories.

Whilst I don't think much of FPTP, it's hard for me to see another system working any better.

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6 minutes ago, Icecream Snow said:

I voted Lib Dem in 2010, and Nick Cleggs alliance with the Tories decimated his party, leaving them with just 8 seats in the 2015 election (down from 57 seats in 2010). Primarily because he had to abandon most of his manifesto to align with the Tories.

Whilst I don't think much of FPTP, it's hard for me to see another system working any better.

In 2010 the Lib Dems got 23% of the vote for less than 9% of the seats. A more proportional system would have meant maybe they wouldn't have needed to abandon so much of their manifesto to form that coalition.

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1 hour ago, Icecream Snow said:

I voted Lib Dem in 2010, and Nick Cleggs alliance with the Tories decimated his party, leaving them with just 8 seats in the 2015 election (down from 57 seats in 2010). Primarily because he had to abandon most of his manifesto to align with the Tories.

Whilst I don't think much of FPTP, it's hard for me to see another system working any better.

I made exactly the same mistake in 2010 but surely the blame for that fiasco is entirely down to Nick Clegg - if he had aligned himself with Labour instead there would have been far more overlap between the parties' manifestos and policies.

Going into partnership with the Tories was an act of stupidity which betrayed most of the people who voted for him and was unsurprisingly severely punished by the voters when they eventually got a chance.

Seems pretty clear to me why a PR system would work much better than FPTP,  and you can see it working far better in many other European countries. Yes, most have coalition governments but they are usually coalitions between like-minded parties or at least parties which agree on the major issues - none of that was the case in 2010 between the Tories and the Lib Dems.

Edited by Creative Midfielder
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Instead of PR, a Republic would be better. Even then it can lead to the lowest polling candidate winning (ask Blondie Trump) but there has to be a way that this country can be governed properly and not on the whim of people who change their minds like the wind.

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2 hours ago, BigFish said:

Is that the same Momentum chaired by Jon Lansman who still observes Jewish holidays, grew up in the Jewish Orthodox community, had a Bar Mitzvah and worked in a Kibbutz in the Negev?

The very same, makes it even worse doesnÔÇÖt it.┬á

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4 minutes ago, Van wink said:

The very same, makes it even worse doesnÔÇÖt it.┬á

Johnson is Turkish. Makes his bloody awful. 

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Just elect me, just elect me.

Then I can do what I like.

And it once again suggests the government has not been straight about the extent of new red tape on trade across the Irish Sea. Page one of the document says "at a minimum exit summary declarations will be required when goods are exported from NI to GB"

It concludes that the deal would see "Northern Ireland symbolically separated from the Union."

Pressed on the issue during a campaign visit in Kent, the prime minister said his was a "fantastic deal" and the only checks would be on British exports to the Republic of Ireland going via Northern Ireland.

Better check with the EU on that one liar

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4 hours ago, king canary said:

I would love to know how many people will vote Labour/Tory this election who'd really have preferred to vote Green/Lib Dem/BP but didn't because they don't want to 'waste their vote.' 

I have voted both Green and Lib Dem in the past (not 2010) but certainly fall into the category of not wishing to "waste my vote" by doing so this time.

But it is more than that: the Con-Lib deal in 2010 changed everything for me at least. There must have been millions of voters who felt betrayed by the LD as a result of their participation in such a coalition and it demonstrated the greater truth that however fair the voting system, there can still only be one government at a time. If the so-called minority party "cave in" like the Lib Dems did in 2010 here is still no guarantee of sensible govt. 

Under Paddy Ashdown and Charles Kennedy the Lib Dems were a principled and progressive party, but they seem to have been affected by the same poison that currently affects the two major parties as well. The irony is that the most Europhile of all the parties will have led to our exit from the EU by supporting the euro-sceptic Tories in  2010 and by seeking short term political advantage in 2019 when they had Johnson "by the short hairs." (I am reasonably confident that Johnson will gain a majority - but hope to be wrong )

I can't blame the Tories for acting like Tories but how can you forgive the LDs for acting in such a destructive way? Surely this undermines the argument that the voting system is to blame - rather it is the pursuit of power at all and any cost.

 

What a mess!

Edited by Badger
Corrected mistake

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4 minutes ago, Badger said:

rather it is the pursuit of power at all and any cost.

 

What a mess!

It always has been. 

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9 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Just elect me, just elect me.

Then I can do what I like.

And it once again suggests the government has not been straight about the extent of new red tape on trade across the Irish Sea. Page one of the document says "at a minimum exit summary declarations will be required when goods are exported from NI to GB"

It concludes that the deal would see "Northern Ireland symbolically separated from the Union."

Pressed on the issue during a campaign visit in Kent, the prime minister said his was a "fantastic deal" and the only checks would be on British exports to the Republic of Ireland going via Northern Ireland.

Better check with the EU on that one liar

People don't care that he is blatantly lying to them. It's not even slightly hidden yet they will still vote for him in vast numbers. It's dispiriting how my countrymen have allowed themselves to end up in this situation. It's shocking that I am not shocked anymore by their bizarre behaviour.

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30 minutes ago, ricardo said:

It always has been. 

I don't think that that is true Ricardo. The Conservative Party has always seen power as its raison d'etre but the Liberals/ Social Democrats and the Labour Party have always had an ideology which, at times has hampered them electorally. 

Politicians have always been economical with the truth, but I can never recall an election with quite such obvious lies. Only the Greens seem to act with any principle at the moment.

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