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The Positive Brexit Thread

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And

" In another development, the prime minister's team have confirmed that Mr Johnson will not find time for an interview with ITV before the general election.

He is the only leader of a major party to turn down the request from the channel's Tonight programme. A spokesman for ITV said the programme had bid for Mr Johnson when the general election was called. 

"They have contacted his press team on repeated occasions with times and dates offered to film an interview," the spokesman said. "Boris Johnson's team have today confirmed he will not be taking part." 

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28 minutes ago, Herman said:

Of course I don't know better than the people living through it, but to say it is mostly caused by addiction is bollox and a clear attempt to push the blame away from the government.

I’m not saying that Herman, it’s people who have lived through it and are now trying to find a solution that are saying it. Do you really think this guy is trying to “push the blame away from the government” far from it, he is giving an honest and informed view.  The problem is with people like you who want to blame the government for all our societal problems, of course they have a massive influence but the simplistic view of blame and solutions spouted by Labour is BS

 

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2 hours ago, Herman said:

My theory is that if people are genuinely concerned with the anti-semitism in the Labour party, and there is evidence to show there is a problem, then surely they wouldn't support another party that has clear evidential proof of racism and bigotry, whether it's the leaders articles with Islamophobic and homophobic stances, or the treatment of elderly black West Indians or the general migrant bashing.

Surely if you are against one, and so you should be, then you would be against the others.

As I say, it's only my theory. I could be wrong.

It's my theory that Labour's antisemitism is institutional within the Labour Party, that it comes from the top & no amount of protest will remove it.

It's also my theory that there are many prejudiced people within the Tory Party, & within their voters, & reflects the prejudices of the general population. However I do not believe it's institutional & as such is amenable to proper investigation.

I do not believe Johnson to be homophobic or Islamophobic. I do completely agree with his characterisation of the Niqab; covering your face in public is about the most sinister thing you can do. As far as I can remember it was May's incompetence that caused the Windrush scandal (in fact wasn't it Labour's legislation that triggered it?)

It's a question of degree, like most things. The Tories do not pretend to be paragons of virtue. Mr. Corbyn presents as a self-righteous zealot who is so prejudiced he cannot see it, & the party has been reformed in his image.

As I say, it's only my theory. I could be wrong.

Edited by ron obvious
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I hope you were watching the last few minutes Of Neil's Farage interview Herman (& others); he managed to eviscerate Boris without his even being there. The icy cold scorn & contempt he poured on him was something to behold.

 

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You are right Ron, Labour appears to have racism running through it from top to bottom, institutional: and either condoned or ignored by those at the very top, the evidence is unfolding by the day, why would anyone try to defend this?

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

Homelessness is a hugely complex problem with much of its problems rooted in addiction. For any Labour or any other politician to claim they can "end homelessness" on top of all the other hugely extravagant and uncosted claims is sadly a lie.

Seems that Johnson got there first.

 

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/01/05/the-promises-boris-johnson-has-broken-as-mayor

Promise: When Boris Johnson became mayor he promised to totally eradicate rough sleeping on the streets of London by 2012, saying that "It's scandalous that in 21st century London people have to resort to sleeping on the streets". 

Result: Rough sleeping has doubled in the past five years alone.

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10 minutes ago, Van wink said:

I’m not saying that Herman, it’s people who have lived through it and are now trying to find a solution that are saying it. Do you really think this guy is trying to “push the blame away from the government” far from it, he is giving an honest and informed view.  The problem is with people like you who want to blame the government for all our societal problems, of course they have a massive influence but the simplistic view of blame and solutions spouted by Labour is BS

 

No, I am saying you are. Disingenuous till the end.

I want to blame the government because they are one of the main reasons we are in this current situation, not for all problems, because some people can't be fixed, but there are things that could be done but aren't and haven't for a long time.

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15 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

It's my theory that Labour's antisemitism is institutional within the Labour Party, that it comes from the top & no amount of protest will remove it.

It's also my theory that there are many prejudiced people within the Tory Party, & within their voters, & reflects the prejudices of the general population. However I do not believe it's institutional & as such is amenable to proper investigation.

I do not believe Johnson to be homophobic or Islamophobic. I do completely agree with his characterisation of the Niqab; covering your face in public is about the most sinister thing you can do. As far as I can remember it was May's incompetence that caused the Windrush scandal (in fact wasn't it Labour's legislation that triggered it?)

It's a question of degree, like most things. The Tories do not pretend to be paragons of virtue. Mr. Corbyn presents as a self-righteous zealot who is so prejudiced he cannot see it, & the party has been reformed in his image.

As I say, it's only my theory. I could be wrong.

You are wrong Ron, you are wrong Ron.

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Blah blah blah ... Boris evading as best he can:  "I do not want to pre-empt what they may decide"  FFS are you the the Prime Minister or are you Putin's Puppet?  YOU tell your staff what to do. 

 

Edited by Surfer

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

No it doesn't - we are discussing relative impacts and the practical impacts on the Jewish community have been far less than the harrassment the Government has inflicted on both the black community and the poor, come to that its been far less than muslims and non-Bristish EU citizens have also suffered under this government.

None of that is to excuse the Labour party's failings, they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. But to suggest that they have more of a problem than the Tories is beyond ridiculous - sorry to get back onto what is rapidly becoming my hobby horse but IMO it is impossible to escape the conclusion that we have two disgracefully poor and incompetent parties who nevertheless will between them capture almost all the seats in Parliament because our dysfunctional FPTP system convinces voters they must chose between the lesser of two evils rather than vote for someone they actually believe in or actually has any integrity.

Even so, that you see the Tories as the lesser evil is pretty incredible but I suppose it means that despite your clear understanding of Labour's alleged anti-semitism, you've somehow managed to overlook the many damaging (some illegal), prejudicial and vindictive actions inflicted by these malign Tories on British citizens over the last nine years, even though they've happened in plain sight and been well documented - quite an impressive feat from a certain perspective!

 

I am sure there are some anti-semites in the Labour party. It would be surprising it there were not, given that it has hundreds of thousands of members. But what anti-semitism there is can only be described as 'institutional' if you are changing the meaning of the word. And there is not a shred of evidence that Corbyn is anti-semitic.

While there is a problem, both of anti-semitism and of how it has been dealt with bureaucratically, you would have to be naive in the extreme not to acknowlege the obvious reasons for the way (and The Guardian has been to the fore in this) in which the scale has been exaggerated.

Firstly, Corbyn's political opponents outside the party and within welcome any opportunity to slur him. Secondly, I could not put a percentage on this, but a significant amount of what is claimed to be anti-semitic is nothing of the kind. It is valid criticism of the repressive actions of the state of Israel against the Palestinians.  And the problem there is that although some of the complainants do acknowledge that in theory you can criticise Israel without being anti-semitic they somehow never accept any specific examples as passing that test.

 

And there was the surreal example last year of the former chief rabbi calling Corbyn an anti-semite for having described Israel's repression of the Palestinians as being driven by political Zionism when those pushing those policies are proudly doing it in just that name.

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2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

 

I am sure there are some anti-semites in the Labour party. It would be surprising it there were not, given that it has hundreds of thousands of members. But what anti-semitism there is can only be described as 'institutional' if you are changing the meaning of the word. And there is not a shred of evidence that Corbyn is anti-semitic.

While there is a problem, both of anti-semitism and of how it has been dealt with bureaucratically, you would have to be naive in the extreme not to acknowlege the obvious reasons for the way (and The Guardian has been to the fore in this) in which the scale has been exaggerated.

Firstly, Corbyn's political opponents outside the party and within welcome any opportunity to slur him. Secondly, I could not put a percentage on this, but a significant amount of what is claimed to be anti-semitic is nothing of the kind. It is valid criticism of the repressive actions of the state of Israel against the Palestinians.  And the problem there is that although some of the complainants do acknowledge that in theory you can criticise Israel without being anti-semitic they somehow never accept any specific examples as passing that test.

 

And there was the surreal example last year of the former chief rabbi calling Corbyn an anti-semite for having described Israel's repression of the Palestinians as being driven by political Zionism when those pushing those policies are proudly doing it in just that name.

If you watch the Video I posted earlier there are references to two antisemitic (not anti-Zion) authors specifically endorsed by Corbyn.

I don't remember any of this before Corbyn was elected leader. Jews have been bound up with communism since its inception & have always been strongly represented in the labour movement. Why has that changed?

 

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12 hours ago, Herman said:

No, I am saying you are. Disingenuous till the end.

I want to blame the government because they are one of the main reasons we are in this current situation, not for all problems, because some people can't be fixed, but there are things that could be done but aren't and haven't for a long time.

I am not disingenuous, I just want to look at the facts rather than myth, which I’m sure you will try to come back with a smart **** response to 👍

Edited by Van wink

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1 minute ago, Van wink said:

I am disingenuous, I just want to look at a limited and carefully selected subset of the facts rather than the full picture, which I’m sure you will try to come with a more informed response to 👍

There you go @VW, I've fixed that one for you   😁

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19 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I am sure there are some anti-semites in the Labour party. It would be surprising it there were not, given that it has hundreds of thousands of members. But what anti-semitism there is can only be described as 'institutional' if you are changing the meaning of the word. And there is not a shred of evidence that Corbyn is anti-semitic.

I'm generally a labour supporter and I'm not sure I think Corbyn himself is anti-semitic. But he has a fairly woeful track record of spending time with people who definitely are.

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While the Tories try to cling on to the past, Labour like to talk about the past because of conscience which the Tories don't have. And maybe in politics that is necessary.

Labour leaders, always sceptical about Jewish bankers, believed that they were behind the Boer War. And lets face it, they were probably right. And Britain behaved very badly and arbitrary during that conflict eg, and ironically, Concentration Camps.

And since then, the party has backed Zionists, condemned Zionists, backed the Balfour Declaration. At first the party supported the creation of Israel, then believed it was imperialistic.

So you can see that Jews, Zionists, Bankers, Imperialists have all contrived to make the Labour Party the least united. And when Momentum, all sack cloth and ashes about the past, created the support behind Corbyn, he was welded to them for support. And their belief that the current state of Israel with its total ignorance of common law and humanity is just the offspring of what was created long ago.

Corbyn dare not step out of line and criticise Momentum, they keep him in power. And you are unlikely to get any form of rebuke from him unless he wins a landslide election and can rid himself of Momentum. 

And as that is unlikely, this stupid albatross that hangs around the party's neck will continue to drag it down to its knees.

 

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10 hours ago, Herman said:

4 Brexit Company MEPs quit. 

Tory sleeper agents??🤣

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They wanted to destroy Ukip. It's only taken them a botched referendum, 2 PMs, 2 general elections, or is it 3, and a massive lurch to the far right. Well done Conservatives. 🤣

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5 hours ago, Van wink said:

Hardly amusing and not hypocritical, sadly the Labour party has got itself into a shocking place on racism and whilst I have never even tried to defend the Tories on any allegations of this sort, find a post if you can, the current situation faced by the Jewish community is deplorable

Quite right, VW. 47% of Jewish people in the UK have said they would consider emigrating if Labour got into power. 

That's almost half of all Jewish people in the country. 

I don't know of any % of POC threatening to leave the country because of a Boris Johnson government. 

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The fear and panic on the right is palpable ..... is Boris going to blow their chance for a single party state? 

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Was Etchingham really trying to turn the Queen's speech into a line of attack? I don't watch the Queen's speech as I have no interest in being lectured by some no-mark who has been born "better" than others. I prefer to listen to people who have actually achieved something a bit more substantial than simply being born and milking the state for a life of privelege whilst giving very little back. Sounds like Corbyn has the right idea on Christmas, why spoil it by listening to a parasite with no experience of real life who wouldn't **** on us if we were on fire?

Viva la Republic

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"We need to get Brexit done so we can invest in the services we have neglected or cut to shreds for the last ten years. We need to get Brexit done to invest in services even though we called the referendum to cover up our collosal lack of investment in services."

Conservatives. 

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4 hours ago, kick it off said:

Was Etchingham really trying to turn the Queen's speech into a line of attack? I don't watch the Queen's speech as I have no interest in being lectured by some no-mark who has been born "better" than others. I prefer to listen to people who have actually achieved something a bit more substantial than simply being born and milking the state for a life of privelege whilst giving very little back. Sounds like Corbyn has the right idea on Christmas, why spoil it by listening to a parasite with no experience of real life who wouldn't **** on us if we were on fire?

Viva la Republic

Don't think we (i.e. the family) have watched the Queen's speech for 20 - 30 years., nowadays the television is rarely on at all on Christmas Day and certainly not at 3pm.

Anyway I can't imagine the Queen is going to have anything worthwhile to say this year unless it's an apology for her failure to exercise due diligence or show any responsibility in her role as Head of State to protect our Parliament from abuse by malign undemocratic politicians.

But I won't be holding my breath for that.............................or for a proper Head of State.

IMO Christmas is a time for focussing on the family and trying to forget about ****show surrounding us for a few days.

 

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11 hours ago, ron obvious said:

If you watch the Video I posted earlier there are references to two antisemitic (not anti-Zion) authors specifically endorsed by Corbyn.

I don't remember any of this before Corbyn was elected leader. Jews have been bound up with communism since its inception & have always been strongly represented in the labour movement. Why has that changed?

 

I watched enough to see that one of these books is the study of imperialism by Hobson. That line of attack on Corbyn was debunked at the time. Yes, Hobson had anti-semitic views and they come out in the book, as one line of his argument, but it is much more about how imperialism works and how it can be a force for bad. And as such his analysis has been widely praised by figures from different parts of the political spectrum. As Tristram Hunt, former Labour MP and no lover of Corbyn, said:

It would be reductive to categorise JA Hobson as only an anti-Semitic thinker. Like too many on the Left, he did make a racist & ugly alignment of ‘Jewish finance’ with imperialism. But he was also an important figure, worthy of study, within the 20th century liberal tradition.

Corbyn was not endorsing Hobson's anti-semitism. He was saying the book as an analysis of imperialism had significant points to make. It is an odd argument to say we should not read books by authors who hold repellent views on some subjects (not just anti-semitism, but eugenics, for example) even though what they have to say otherwise is enlightening in a good way.

And there would be really quite a few gaps on my fiction bookshelves if I followed that principle. Adieu Ferdinand-Celine, farewell all those John Buchans...

Edited by PurpleCanary

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12 hours ago, king canary said:

I'm generally a labour supporter and I'm not sure I think Corbyn himself is anti-semitic. But he has a fairly woeful track record of spending time with people who definitely are.

He is in the grip of Momentum which has deeply anti Semitic views, that’s why he is unable to deal with problem. In the unlikely event that he wins a majority government it will be run by Momentum, a group of left wing extremists who will ruin this country. The Labour Party that you and I know, the one that kicked out the Militant Tendency sadly doesn’t exist atm.

The shame is that a few on here are so anti Tory that they are prepared to ignore the cancer at the heart of Labour atm. It needs to be challenged at all levels to return the Labour Party to what it should be, and one which I could then support.

Edited by Van wink
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5 hours ago, kick it off said:

Was Etchingham really trying to turn the Queen's speech into a line of attack? I don't watch the Queen's speech as I have no interest in being lectured by some no-mark who has been born "better" than others. I prefer to listen to people who have actually achieved something a bit more substantial than simply being born and milking the state for a life of privelege whilst giving very little back. Sounds like Corbyn has the right idea on Christmas, why spoil it by listening to a parasite with no experience of real life who wouldn't **** on us if we were on fire?

Viva la Republic

We never watch it either and agree with your sentiments too. 

Jeremy can't be honest and say he doesn't watch it because it's well known that he has similar views to your own, which wouldn't go down well in the middle of an election campaign. Hence why Etchingham brought up the subject in the first place.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Herman said:

"We need to get Brexit done so we can invest in the services we have neglected or cut to shreds for the last ten years. We need to get Brexit done to invest in services even though we called the referendum to cover up our collosal lack of investment in services."

Conservatives. 

More like we need to get Brexit done so we then have to move Thatcherism  on Steroids (minus her single market.....).  Free market rules for everybody or on yer bike. Isn't that what the Tory right (or now just the Tory party) always wanted?

Just be careful what you wish for......

Edited by Yellow Fever
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9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Quite right, VW. 47% of Jewish people in the UK have said they would consider emigrating if Labour got into power. 

That's almost half of all Jewish people in the country. 

I don't know of any % of POC threatening to leave the country because of a Boris Johnson government. 

Is that before or after 80M Turks arrive?

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