Jump to content
Jools

The Positive Brexit Thread

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Van wink said:

Labour antisemitism: Corbyn not fit for high office, says Ephraim Mirvis

Ephraim Mirvis is somebody that conflates anti-Israeli aggression and anti-Zionist sentiments with anti-semitism. He is part of the problem, not the solution. It is perfectly legitimate to take an anti-Israel stance whilst holding tolerant, respectful views about Judaism and Jewish people. Mirvis is one of those who seeks to propagate the lie that if you don't agree with the Israeli apartheid and ethnic cleansing of Palestine then you are somehow anti-semitic. It's a view that is frequently put forward by various prominent Jewish figures, but it is simply not legitimate. Mirvis' issue with Corbyn is that Corbyn is anti-Israel.

Mirvis' viewpoint is the same as saying "Oh what, you disagree with Pol Pot's slaughter of a generation? You must be a racist who hates Asian people then". It's a ludicrous and illegitimate stance, and is only given credence due to Western guilt over WW2. This attitude is highly criticised by various moderate Jewish figures such as Chomsky and Ilan Pappe - Are they anti-semitic too? Because according to Mirvis, they would be.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/10/anti-zionism-does-not-equate-to-antisemitism

Edited by kick it off

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Herman said:

Blair said they both pose a risk if they get a majority. 

You would expect a former Labour PM say that about Johnson, but to say Corbyn is a risk to Britain is unprecedented. Is Blair correct?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Herman said:

I know. A general election will sort out Brexit!! You twits.😳😉

 

9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Tony Blair:  A majority for Corbyn would “pose a risk” to Britain

What say Labourites?

@Rock The Boat for me, I think there is no chance of a Corbyn majority (and it seems Heseltine agrees) and that is probably a good thing. However, for the first time the ICM poll moves us into possible hung parliament territory which is very much a good thing. What @ricardo would lose on the Tories I expect he would make up on his LibDem position?

Answer your question?

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, kick it off said:

Ephraim Mirvis is somebody that conflates anti-Israeli aggression and anti-Zionist sentiments with anti-semitism. He is part of the problem, not the solution. It is perfectly legitimate to take an anti-Israel stance whilst holding tolerant, respectful views about Judaism and Jewish people. Mirvis is one of those who seeks to propagate the lie that if you don't agree with the Israeli apartheid and ethnic cleansing of Palestine then you are somehow anti-semitic. It's a view that is frequently put forward by various prominent Jewish figures, but it is simply not legitimate. Mirvis' issue with Corbyn is that Corbyn is anti-Israel.

Mirvis' viewpoint is the same as saying "Oh what, you disagree with Pol Pot's slaughter of a generation? You must be a racist who hates Asian people then". It's a ludicrous and illegitimate stance, and is only given credence due to Western guilt over WW2. This attitude is highly criticised by various moderate Jewish figures such as Chomsky and Ilan Pappe - Are they anti-semitic too? Because according to Mirvis, they would be.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/10/anti-zionism-does-not-equate-to-antisemitism

Yes, although to be clear I would not say Corbyn is anti-Israel per se. Only that he is, quite rightly, opposed to Israel's Zionist-inspired repression of the Palestinians. And there is a wider point here. There are probably more anti-semites in the Tory party than in Labour, but you hardly ever hear from them because they don't give a toss about the plight of the Palestinians and so do not make statements than then get demonised as anti-semitic. There was a very rare case recently involving a former UKIP MEP now standing as a Tory:

“Young men are going over from England where I come from – people of the Jewish faith who my grandchildren have grown up with as decent young men. But have come back as extremists – as people that are brainwashed. They will not listen to reason. There is something very peculiar and wrong going on Israel.”
 
That is certainly anti-Israeli. Whether it is that anti-semitic is a question. It is over the top to talk about brain-washing producing extremists, but it is the case that Israeli students going abroad have to take a course that has been attacked as blatant propaganda with a Zionist slant. It doesn't take much of a leap to imagine that Jewish students visiting Israel, while not being brainwashed, are at the least encouraged to believe the same. And it is hardly controversial to argue that there is something wrong in Israel generally.
 
Of course the trick of demonising anything anti-Zionist as anti-semitic doesn't just apply in national politics. From memory you and I were both so attacked here a while back. Perhaps luckily for the poster concerned it was on the Brexit thread that later got pulled. But then the sensible law of defamation would have applied - that you only sue those whom others might take seriously.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

You would expect a former Labour PM say that about Johnson, but to say Corbyn is a risk to Britain is unprecedented. Is Blair correct?

I agree that neither should get a workable majority but I also think Johnson's jovial brand of fascism, Brexit and the no deal trap set for next year are the biggest threat. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Tony Blair:  A majority for Corbyn would “pose a risk” to Britain

What say Labourites?

Like Tony Blair I'm not a Labourite.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:
Yes, although to be clear I would not say Corbyn is anti-Israel per se. Only that he is, quite rightly, opposed to Israel's Zionist-inspired repression of the Palestinians. And there is a wider point here. There are probably more anti-semites in the Tory party than in Labour, but you hardly ever hear from them because they don't give a toss about the plight of the Palestinians and so do not make statements than then get demonised as anti-semitic. There was a very rare case recently involving a former UKIP MEP now standing as a Tory:

“Young men are going over from England where I come from – people of the Jewish faith who my grandchildren have grown up with as decent young men. But have come back as extremists – as people that are brainwashed. They will not listen to reason. There is something very peculiar and wrong going on Israel.”
 
That is certainly anti-Israeli. Whether it is that anti-semitic is a question. It is over the top to talk about brain-washing producing extremists, but it is the case that Israeli students going abroad have to take a course that has been attacked as blatant propaganda with a Zionist slant. It doesn't take much of a leap to imagine that Jewish students visiting Israel, while not being brainwashed, are at the least encouraged to believe the same. And it is hardly controversial to argue that there is something wrong in Israel generally.
 
Of course the trick of demonising anything anti-Zionist as anti-semitic doesn't just apply in national politics. From memory you and I were both so attacked here a while back. Perhaps luckily for the poster concerned it was on the Brexit thread that later got pulled. But then the sensible law of defamation would have applied - that you only sue those whom others might take seriously.

 

Much to agree with here and I have Jewish family (and children!) who would agree with you.

There are dolts in all nations and all peoples - we see some on here! Most of the extended family have the same views of Israel and its behaviour as any other rounded (non-Jewish) person - the good and the bad. Sadly as with all people there are some simpletons and nationalists amongst them. However - I can't help but think this 'anti-Corbyn' stuff has more to do with domestic politics and point scoring than the true problems of anti-semitic or indeed general racist behaviour - which seems far stronger but less exposed to me on the right of our politics. Rise above it. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just saw this latest from Reuters for those of you that like polls.

It shows direction of travel which at this stage is more meaningful than the absolute numbers ...... 

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain’s opposition Labour Party has squeezed the governing Conservatives’ opinion poll lead to 11 points from 18 over the last week, a survey by Kantar showed on Tuesday, ahead of a Dec. 12 election.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BigFish said:

 

@Rock The Boat for me, I think there is no chance of a Corbyn majority (and it seems Heseltine agrees) and that is probably a good thing. However, for the first time the ICM poll moves us into possible hung parliament territory which is very much a good thing. What @ricardo would lose on the Tories I expect he would make up on his LibDem position?

Answer your question?

Just a caveat to this. This is actually the second time that the gap has been shown at 7% by ICM.

Their November Polls show a Tory lead of 7% (4th Nov), 8% (11th Nov), 10% (18th Nov) and 7% (25th Nov). They consistently show the gap to be smaller than the other polling organisations. I guess it's to do with the way they carry out their polling which may be subtly different to some of the others.

Doesn't make them wrong of course, just as the Opinium one showing a Tory lead of 19% a few days ago isn't. If it's replicated by a second organisation in the next few days it would carry more weight. Otherwise it's probably safer to use Poll of Polls. 

Certainly shows though how close things are to a hung parliament scenario, which is likely to be around 7% Tory lead or less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

Just a caveat to this. This is actually the second time that the gap has been shown at 7% by ICM.

Their November Polls show a Tory lead of 7% (4th Nov), 8% (11th Nov), 10% (18th Nov) and 7% (25th Nov). They consistently show the gap to be smaller than the other polling organisations. I guess it's to do with the way they carry out their polling which may be subtly different to some of the others.

Doesn't make them wrong of course, just as the Opinium one showing a Tory lead of 19% a few days ago isn't. If it's replicated by a second organisation in the next few days it would carry more weight. Otherwise it's probably safer to use Poll of Polls. 

Certainly shows though how close things are to a hung parliament scenario, which is likely to be around 7% Tory lead or less.

Quite correct.

Polls usually have a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percent. 19 percent was an obvious outlier that happens in every half dozen or so polls.

The picture at the moment looks like a 9-11 point gap IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

Just a caveat to this. This is actually the second time that the gap has been shown at 7% by ICM.

Their November Polls show a Tory lead of 7% (4th Nov), 8% (11th Nov), 10% (18th Nov) and 7% (25th Nov). They consistently show the gap to be smaller than the other polling organisations. I guess it's to do with the way they carry out their polling which may be subtly different to some of the others.

Doesn't make them wrong of course, just as the Opinium one showing a Tory lead of 19% a few days ago isn't. If it's replicated by a second organisation in the next few days it would carry more weight. Otherwise it's probably safer to use Poll of Polls. 

Certainly shows though how close things are to a hung parliament scenario, which is likely to be around 7% Tory lead or less.

The latest FT poll of polls (yesterday) has a 13 point (43 to 30) gap between the Tories and Labour. It shows both parties have increased their 'vote' since the election was called, at the expense of the LibDems and Brexit. There is just the slight sign that the Tory figure may be starting to drop and the LibDems starting to tick back up, but you would need to wait to see if that becomes a trend.

And this is not PR. The election will be won and lost in certain key constituencies, and possibly because of tactical voting, so the overall national figures are not a precise guide.

That said, if there is hope for Labour or perhaps more to the point to a potential anti-Hard Brexit alliance, it is that the more voters see of Johnson the more it should become apparent that he is a hollow man quite unqualified to be prime minister.

Edited by PurpleCanary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

The latest FT poll of polls (yesterday) has a 13 point (43 to 30) gap between the Tories and Labour. It shows both parties have increased their 'vote' since the election was called, at the expense of the LibDems and Brexit. There is just the slight sign that the Tory figure may be starting to drop and the LibDems starting to tick back up, but you would need to wait to see if that becomes a trend.

And this is not PR. The election will be won and lost in certain key constituencies, and possibly because of tactical voting, so the overall national figures are not a precise guide.

That said, if there is hope for Labour or perhaps more to the point to a potential anti-Hard Brexit alliance, it is that the more voters see of Johnson the more it should become apparent that he is a hollow man quite unqualified to be prime minister.

Quite the contrary. The Lib Dems are in a classic squeeze as support moves towards the big two.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

Much to agree with here and I have Jewish family (and children!) who would agree with you.

There are dolts in all nations and all peoples - we see some on here! Most of the extended family have the same views of Israel and its behaviour as any other rounded (non-Jewish) person - the good and the bad. Sadly as with all people there are some simpletons and nationalists amongst them. However - I can't help but think this 'anti-Corbyn' stuff has more to do with domestic politics and point scoring than the true problems of anti-semitic or indeed general racist behaviour - which seems far stronger but less exposed to me on the right of our politics. Rise above it. 

The issue here is not about views on Palastine, or Israel and its behaviour, its about a faction of our community having genuine fears about their future safety and that of their families under a Corbyn administration, based on their faith. Their fears are founded on Labours failure to deal with this one aspect of racism within the party.

Edited by Van wink

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Quite the contrary. The Lib Dems are in a classic squeeze as support moves towards the big two.

 

Yes - but their support can be very focussed - it makes it all very challenging to call at present. It's also true that a lot of 'undecided' (undecided between 'Remain parties I think)  may well decide tactically at the end when it's clear who's best placed whereas Johnson has already scooped nearly all the available BXP 'Leave' low hanging fruit already.  Expect the head-line 'gap ' to close more - yet the actual result to be still closer or even a bigger surprise!

The polls are of course in reality always 2 or 3 days old anyay!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All that needs to be said - Just now.

"Muslim Council of Britain stands by Chief Rabbi but also tells people to vote with their conscience on Islamophobia in Tory party:

“This an issue that is particularly acute in the Conservative Party who have approached Islamophobia with denial, dismissal and deceit.”

 

Pot - Kettle - Black.

All kinds of discrimination in all parties need rooting out. At least that's now happening openly in Labour - warts and all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes - but their support can be very focussed - it makes it all very challenging to call at present. It's also true that a lot of 'undecided' (undecided between 'Remain parties I think)  may well decide tactically at the end when it's clear who's best placed whereas Johnson has already scooped nearly all the available BXP 'Leave' low hanging fruit already.  Expect the head-line 'gap ' to close more - yet the actual result to be still closer or even a bigger surprise!

The polls are of course in reality always 2 or 3 days old anyay!  

People have always voted tactically, it's not a new phenomena. The mistake is believing the Ldem vote will automatically default towards Labour. 

It's always hard to call especially if you back your thinking with money. I still expect to see a substantial profit on my tip of Ldem below 45 seats. That always looked like free money to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a fairly long campaign period and voter fatigue will play an important factor. Not getting the vote out on a winter's day could be significant in the marginal seats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue here is not about views on Palastine, or Israel and its behaviour, its about a faction of our community having genuine fears about their future safety and that of their families under a Corbyn administration, based on their faith. Their fears are founded on Labours failure to deal with this one aspect of racism within the party.

It is a problem but it appears only because Jewish people have normally voted Labour, which dispels the Jewish Banker argument. I think because of some pillocks in Momentum not having any grey areas in life, if you aren't with us you're against us, they cannot separate Jews and Jewish support for Israel.

I support Israel's right to be a state. 70 years down the line it is established. But I cannot support its notion based on thousands of years religious belief, that it has the right to a Zionist state where it is. Palestinians or non Jew should be able to cohabit, work, relax, play sport together. But they would fall out over the name.

Momentum clearly put all the blame on Israel and its attitude that might is right. And they object to it being propped up by the US and its British lackey. Trouble is, it is too complex and deep seated to just take one side. And until there is compromise there will be problems.

The British Government compromised with SInn Fein over NI, and Corbyn was a conduit for Mo Mowlam during the talks. If you want to persist with an attitude of we are right and will not compromise then you invite trouble. 21 years on from the Good Friday agreement there a measure, not complete we know, of peace and understanding in NI.

If Thatcher had conceded that Sinn Fein did have a justifiable argument, peace could have come earlier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

All that needs to be said - Just now.

"Muslim Council of Britain stands by Chief Rabbi but also tells people to vote with their conscience on Islamophobia in Tory party:

“This an issue that is particularly acute in the Conservative Party who have approached Islamophobia with denial, dismissal and deceit.”

 

Pot - Kettle - Black.

All kinds of discrimination in all parties need rooting out. At least that's now happening openly in Labour - warts and all.

But it's not being rooted out in Labour. That's the problem. Just about everybody recognises there is a problem but the leadership doesn't deal with the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Quite the contrary. The Lib Dems are in a classic squeeze as support moves towards the big two.

 

To quote our absent friend: Eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But it's not being rooted out in Labour. That's the problem. Just about everybody recognises there is a problem but the leadership doesn't deal with the problem.

You only lose the Tory Whip if you vote against Boris's deal. People like Francois can't help themselves being anti Islam and **** jockeys like him stopped Brexit going through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

Whoever do you mean?

Has he been naughty again?

Ha! I didn't mean to imply City1st had been banned. Seriously not. I have no reason to think that. But he seems not to have been posting on his favourite thread for some days now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Ha! I didn't mean to imply City1st had been banned. Seriously not. I have no reason to think that. But he seems not to have been posting on his favourite thread for some days now.

Rehab, and well overdue!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

But it's not being rooted out in Labour. That's the problem. Just about everybody recognises there is a problem but the leadership doesn't deal with the problem.

You only lose the Tory Whip if you vote against Boris's deal. People like Francois can't help themselves being anti Islam and **** jockeys like him stopped Brexit going through.

This is why halal should be banned. Not for the squeamish viewer 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is why halal should be banned. Not for the squeamish viewer 

Agreed that to us its barbaric. But to them it isn't. I don't go to any slaughter houses in this country either. I'm two faced. I like eating meat but wouldn't kill an animal to eat it. But on the other hand, I put rat poison down, slug pellets, use fly spray. And used to go fishing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...