Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
Jools

The Brexit Thread

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Herman said:

 

It's actually getting embarrassing the number of former Labour activists who are coming out publicly to say don't vote for Corbyn's Labour party. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ricardo said:

Because there was no chance of a second ref getting through Parliament.

Perhaps I should have clarified my point; it was stupid to "suddenly" push for a General Election. Boris was digging his own grave with the WA passing 2nd Reading and therefore heading into proper Parliamentary scrutiny. If he did manage to execute the WA he'd then have to demonstrate progress. If he did that, the Opposition could have waited but if he didn't do that, the Opposition could have forced a GE at that time.

Forcing the GE when they did, they conceded the political high ground to Boris. And now if he wins he has a 5 year window to get things done, all they can do next year is whine and complain from the political sidelines. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good to see the Conservatives bringing out the old vote Leave greatest hits. Xenophobic comments about EU migrants will boost their base. 

Thousands of dishonest Fakebook ads. 

And now the twitter bots have been switched on. 

Edited by Herman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, ricardo said:

Every half dozen polls you get an outlier that can double the normal 3 percent margin of error.

I don't think it makes sense for companies to doctor data to suit their customer. Surely getting near the right final result is their aim

Each poll has a different set of parameters so there is bound to be some variation. The polling done by the parties themselves and their feedback from campaigning is probably the most accurate account of the way things are going. The fact that Johnson was in the North yesterday suggests he feels, rightly or wrongly, rightly imo, that he has a chance of grabbing some of the Labour heartland, the polling I posted from Wales seems to confirm that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Herman said:

Good to see the Conservatives bringing out the old vote Leave greatest hits. Xenophobic comments about EU migrants will boost their base. 

Thousands of dishonest Fakebook ads. 

And now the twitter bots have been switched on. 

 I seem to see more stuff on Twitter from Labour supporters than the Tories, I don’t really know how these “twitter bots” work. Will they be offering me free gifts as well? Great to see the parties entering into the Christmas spirit.😀

Edited by Van wink

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Yes I know its the Guardian but you cannot Ctrl/C anyone elses.

So they lied about a so called punch and then Boris cannot bring himself to admit things have got so bad on his party's watch.

There is an almost Trump like adoration from some people or as one Northern chap said "anything is better than Jezza". Really? I hope your job is safe pal. 

On the other hand ...

 

I can't vouch for this, but this is what is being posted on facebook.

"Very interesting from a nursing friend : A good friend of mine is a senior nursing sister at Leeds Hospital - the boy shown on the floor by the media was in fact put there by his mother who then took photos on her mobile phone and uploaded it to media outlets before he climbed back onto his trolley. He was on a hospital trolley in the paediatric A&E having been seen within 20 minutes. I am a nurse myself and am so pissed off with fake news, yes the NHS is a mess mainly caused by people misusing it and lack of elderly care. Think of the nurses and Doctors who are doing their jobs instead ofc onstantly slagging them off. another Momentum Propaganda story. Disgraceful."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

On the other hand ...

 

I can't vouch for this, but this is what is being posted on facebook.

"Very interesting from a nursing friend : A good friend of mine is a senior nursing sister at Leeds Hospital - the boy shown on the floor by the media was in fact put there by his mother who then took photos on her mobile phone and uploaded it to media outlets before he climbed back onto his trolley. He was on a hospital trolley in the paediatric A&E having been seen within 20 minutes. I am a nurse myself and am so pissed off with fake news, yes the NHS is a mess mainly caused by people misusing it and lack of elderly care. Think of the nurses and Doctors who are doing their jobs instead ofc onstantly slagging them off. another Momentum Propaganda story. Disgraceful."

You could have done what any reasonable person would have done and checked to see what the hospital had said. Instead you decide to go ahead and post an obvious lie:

Dr Yvette Oade, Chief Medical Officer at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust said: “Our hospitals are extremely busy at the moment and we are very sorry that Jack’s family had a long wait in our Emergency Department.

"Our Chief Executive Julian Hartley has spoken to Jack’s mum and offered a personal apology.

“We have seen a significant increase in the number of people visiting our Paediatric Emergency Department, and this week we saw the highest attendances we have seen since April 2016.

"Despite this, our staff are working tirelessly to provide the best possible care under these extreme pressures.

“Jack was quickly assessed upon arrival and seen in two different clinical treatment rooms in the Paediatric Emergency Department.

“Within four hours a decision was made to admit Jack to our Children’s Assessment and Treatment (CAT) Unit for further monitoring overnight.

"Unfortunately, the unit was also experiencing exceptionally high levels of demand which meant that Jack was required to wait in the clinical treatment room in the Paediatric Emergency Department until a bed became available.

"Jack was admitted to the CAT Unit later that evening and was discharged home the following morning after a medical review.

We are extremely sorry that there were only chairs available in the treatment room, and no bed. This falls below our usual high standards, and for this we would like to sincerely apologise to Jack and his family.

“We are increasing the bed availability in our Children’s Hospital and our Children’s Assessment and Treatment Unit will be relocating to a larger area in the new year.

"We are continuing to develop the plans for our new Children’s Hospital in Leeds which will be built in 2025.”

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

You could have done what any reasonable person would have done and checked to see what the hospital had said. Instead you decide to go ahead and post an obvious lie:

Dr Yvette Oade, Chief Medical Officer at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust said: “Our hospitals are extremely busy at the moment and we are very sorry that Jack’s family had a long wait in our Emergency Department.

"Our Chief Executive Julian Hartley has spoken to Jack’s mum and offered a personal apology.

“We have seen a significant increase in the number of people visiting our Paediatric Emergency Department, and this week we saw the highest attendances we have seen since April 2016.

"Despite this, our staff are working tirelessly to provide the best possible care under these extreme pressures.

“Jack was quickly assessed upon arrival and seen in two different clinical treatment rooms in the Paediatric Emergency Department.

“Within four hours a decision was made to admit Jack to our Children’s Assessment and Treatment (CAT) Unit for further monitoring overnight.

"Unfortunately, the unit was also experiencing exceptionally high levels of demand which meant that Jack was required to wait in the clinical treatment room in the Paediatric Emergency Department until a bed became available.

"Jack was admitted to the CAT Unit later that evening and was discharged home the following morning after a medical review.

We are extremely sorry that there were only chairs available in the treatment room, and no bed. This falls below our usual high standards, and for this we would like to sincerely apologise to Jack and his family.

“We are increasing the bed availability in our Children’s Hospital and our Children’s Assessment and Treatment Unit will be relocating to a larger area in the new year.

"We are continuing to develop the plans for our new Children’s Hospital in Leeds which will be built in 2025.”

So he was left lying on the floor with a drip by his side, where it doesn't work. And yet the hospital say he was on a chair, not left on the floor.

The picture is trying to say the situation is so desperate that children are being tossed on the ground because the NHS is in such a state that it resembles war-torn Syria. You can believe that if you like.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was the twitter bots I was talking about. Hundreds of people posting the exact same thing. Either that nurse is popular or the tories are churning the waters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

So he was left lying on the floor with a drip by his side, where it doesn't work. And yet the hospital say he was on a chair, not left on the floor.

The picture is trying to say the situation is so desperate that children are being tossed on the ground because the NHS is in such a state that it resembles war-torn Syria. You can believe that if you like.

 

Oh dear. This from the Leeds paper, talking to the child's mother:

A few hours later she was told the bed was needed for another patient.

“A doctor rushed in and said they needed Jack’s bed and literally within a minute all of his stuff was pulled out of the bed.The doctor unplugged his oxygen, picked him up and moved us into what I would describe as a cupboard. They call it a treatment room. It was a room without a bed.

“His oxygen was connected to the wall but he did not have a bed and he was really unwell. He kept asking to lay down. He was without a bed for four-and-a-half hours. He needed to go to sleep and he needed to lay down. He started falling asleep and he ended up going to sleep on a pile of coats.

“There was no bed for him in A&E and there was no bed for him on the ward, so he just had to sleep on the floor. The room was full of medical supplies. Doctors and nurses were coming in constantly saying ‘sorry, can I just take this, can I just take that.

“I don’t have any issues with the doctors and the nurses, they were really lovely people and I want to make that clear. I was just feeling despair. He was so ill and I didn’t know why he was ill. I thought if he has got pneumonia, laying on a cold floor is not going to do him any good. He was so grey, he looked so ill.”

At 10pm Jack was taken to the hospital’s Children’s Assessment and Treatment Unit, where he was put on a trolley for five hours and had a series of tests. She said her son was “confused and exhausted”.

“He just kept saying ‘I want to go to sleep’. He was laying on a plastic mattress with a sheet of paper pulled across him. The problem is they (the medics) were so busy and there weren’t enough beds. They just seemed stressed and under pressure.”

At 3am Jack got a bed on the ward and slept for a few hours, with his mum sat in a seat alongside him. Later that morning it was confirmed he had flu and tonsillitis and he was allowed home at lunchtime, where he has been recovering.

So this sick child slept on the floor because the alternative was trying to sleep in a chair, as confirmed by what the hospital said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

So he was left lying on the floor with a drip by his side, where it doesn't work. And yet the hospital say he was on a chair, not left on the floor.

The picture is trying to say the situation is so desperate that children are being tossed on the ground because the NHS is in such a state that it resembles war-torn Syria. You can believe that if you like.

 

Seriously, just do a bit of research. Why would the hospital have offered an apology if the picture was staged or fake?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Seriously, just do a bit of research. Why would the hospital have offered an apology if the picture was staged or fake?

Not only that but the Tory tabloids will have checked the story out, desperately looking for flaws, and would have gone to town on it if there was even the slightest doubt about its truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Oh dear. This from the Leeds paper, talking to the child's mother:

A few hours later she was told the bed was needed for another patient.

“A doctor rushed in and said they needed Jack’s bed and literally within a minute all of his stuff was pulled out of the bed.The doctor unplugged his oxygen, picked him up and moved us into what I would describe as a cupboard. They call it a treatment room. It was a room without a bed.

“His oxygen was connected to the wall but he did not have a bed and he was really unwell. He kept asking to lay down. He was without a bed for four-and-a-half hours. He needed to go to sleep and he needed to lay down. He started falling asleep and he ended up going to sleep on a pile of coats.

“There was no bed for him in A&E and there was no bed for him on the ward, so he just had to sleep on the floor. The room was full of medical supplies. Doctors and nurses were coming in constantly saying ‘sorry, can I just take this, can I just take that.

“I don’t have any issues with the doctors and the nurses, they were really lovely people and I want to make that clear. I was just feeling despair. He was so ill and I didn’t know why he was ill. I thought if he has got pneumonia, laying on a cold floor is not going to do him any good. He was so grey, he looked so ill.”

At 10pm Jack was taken to the hospital’s Children’s Assessment and Treatment Unit, where he was put on a trolley for five hours and had a series of tests. She said her son was “confused and exhausted”.

“He just kept saying ‘I want to go to sleep’. He was laying on a plastic mattress with a sheet of paper pulled across him. The problem is they (the medics) were so busy and there weren’t enough beds. They just seemed stressed and under pressure.”

At 3am Jack got a bed on the ward and slept for a few hours, with his mum sat in a seat alongside him. Later that morning it was confirmed he had flu and tonsillitis and he was allowed home at lunchtime, where he has been recovering.

So this sick child slept on the floor because the alternative was trying to sleep in a chair, as confirmed by what the hospital said.

OK, that sounds credible & consistent. Thanks for the information.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the facts of the childs case were fairly well established.

  He was seen promptly and assessed and, at this point, had a bed /trolley. He lost it  when someone (or people) in greater need came in. 

The hospital wanted to keep him in for observations and he waited on a chair for the bed to become available on the ward.  As he was tired he was put on the floor by the parents/laid down himself

Total wait without a bed is not completely clear but possibly around  4 hours.  It seems that he was given a bed overnight and released the next day.

Thankfully he did not have pneumonia as feared.

 

Edited by Barbe bleu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

OK, that sounds credible & consistent. Thanks for the information.

 

I don't vouch for every detail of the mother's account but I believe the basic allegation, which has in effect been officially confirmed. That the hospital was so over-stretched in terms of staff and resources that a sick and tired child was waiting so long for proper treatment that it ended up having to sleep on the floor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

It's actually getting embarrassing the number of former Labour activists who are coming out publicly to say don't vote for Corbyn's Labour party. 

So you’re voting for this instead?! 🤡 

212BC0FB-B62C-4F7D-B814-43F46CCA26A0.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

On the other hand ...

 

I can't vouch for this, but this is what is being posted on facebook.

"Very interesting from a nursing friend : A good friend of mine is a senior nursing sister at Leeds Hospital - the boy shown on the floor by the media was in fact put there by his mother who then took photos on her mobile phone and uploaded it to media outlets before he climbed back onto his trolley. He was on a hospital trolley in the paediatric A&E having been seen within 20 minutes. I am a nurse myself and am so pissed off with fake news, yes the NHS is a mess mainly caused by people misusing it and lack of elderly care. Think of the nurses and Doctors who are doing their jobs instead ofc onstantly slagging them off. another Momentum Propaganda story. Disgraceful."

Like most of what is posted on Facebook its totally untrue - anyone who actually worked for the NHS in Leeds could tell you that the chances of being seen inside 20 minutes at A&E are the square root of **** all, and if you are able to climb off and onto a trolley then they are absolutely zero.

Just more lies from the most disgusting party in British politics - it's been quite an achievement for the Tories to wrestle that title away from Farage but they've won the race to be the biggest scumbags in British politics by a country mile this time around.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KG, Can you recall any election when the opposition(be they Labour or Tory) don't try and pull the sick child stunt? I can still see Tony Blair's face when they pulled it on him. It's usually good for a few votes, that's why they do it.

I do remember Blair, taking his sincerity injection and onion on the eyelids before facing the cameras.and    those     long     pauses    as he tried to make out he was choosing his words from the heart. In fact the "People's Princess" made me puke.

Without understanding too much from before I was a teenager, I just remember men in identical grey suits (it was B&W TV of course) discussing politics sat on leather Chesterfield couches. People were more or less committed and Britain was a Tory governed country. But then so many of them, unable to change they way the world was with the emergence of oil producing countries and the slow death of the Empire, knowing it was their fault, chose to blame US! 

The current elections make me so angry with the waste of money, sound bytes and media time just for politicians who can't answer a question unless their agency spin doctor in beside them. If these spin doctors are so good and clever, lets change to a republic and vote one of them for President.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I thought the facts of the childs case were fairly well established.

  He was seen promptly and assessed and, at this point, had a bed /trolley. He lost it  when someone (or people) in greater need came in. 

The hospital wanted to keep him in for observations and he waited on a chair for the bed to become available on the ward.  As he was tired he was put on the floor by the parents/laid down himself

Total wait without a bed is not completely clear but possibly around  4 hours.  It seems that he was given a bed overnight and released the next day.

Thankfully he did not have pneumonia as feared.

 

I think the deflections, distractions, false reporting and poor behaviour of the PM have made this story much bigger. It is about truth. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

KG, Can you recall any election when the opposition(be they Labour or Tory) don't try and pull the sick child stunt? I can still see Tony Blair's face when they pulled it on him. It's usually good for a few votes, that's why they do it.

I do remember Blair, taking his sincerity injection and onion on the eyelids before facing the cameras.and    those     long     pauses    as he tried to make out he was choosing his words from the heart. In fact the "People's Princess" made me puke.

Without understanding too much from before I was a teenager, I just remember men in identical grey suits (it was B&W TV of course) discussing politics sat on leather Chesterfield couches. People were more or less committed and Britain was a Tory governed country. But then so many of them, unable to change they way the world was with the emergence of oil producing countries and the slow death of the Empire, knowing it was their fault, chose to blame US! 

The current elections make me so angry with the waste of money, sound bytes and media time just for politicians who can't answer a question unless their agency spin doctor in beside them. If these spin doctors are so good and clever, lets change to a republic and vote one of them for President.

We usually get a stunt right at the end to try and change the narrative. I remember the Lib Dem guy who tried to doorstep Cameron over a disabled child. Then we had Brown and "that bigotted woman" and today apparently Ashworth has been caught making disparaging remarks about Corbyn. 

How much cuts through and changes peoples minds is hard to say. I have never believed in hoards of undecided making their minds up at the last minute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Herman said:

I think the deflections, distractions, false reporting and poor behaviour of the PM have made this story much bigger. It is about truth. 

Like the shadow health ministers recorded remarks about Corbyn you mean.🤣

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We usually get a stunt right at the end to try and change the narrative.

One of the funniest was between Prescott and Brandreth, you couldn't get much further apart on the political and social spectrum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

The picture is trying to say the situation is so desperate that children are being tossed on the ground because the NHS is in such a state that it resembles war-torn Syria. You can believe that if you like.

 

I haven't heard anyone, other than you, make a comparison with war torn Syria but then I don't look at Facebook which may explain a lot.

But what I believe, and also know to be true, because unlike your Facebook Tory propangandist I actually have two close family members who do work in the Leeds NHS Trust (one in each of the two teaching hospitals), is that the hospitals are consistently under-resourced and always overworked - at times to breaking point.

The staff are, by and large, absolutely fantastic and work incredibly hard, in many cases keeping the system going by working huge amounts of unpaid overtime. However there are a significant number of wards in Leeds (and I'm pretty sure most other places too) which are routinely run unsafely - the Trust know it and the staff also know it but try their best to make it work (wrongly IMO as it places their patients and themselves at risk and when things go wrong the Trust just throw them under the bus and absolve themselves of any responsibility).

The Trust will not do the right thing the close wards that they can't resource properly because of the exteme pressure they are under from NHS England and the Government, who are consistently deceitful about NHS matters - it is an utter disgrace but nothing new from this most malign of governments. This situation has existed for several years but it is unquestionably getting worse and will continue to do so if these lying scumbags get re-elected as seems very likely.

Edited by Creative Midfielder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

We usually get a stunt right at the end to try and change the narrative.

One of the funniest was between Prescott and Brandreth, you couldn't get much further apart on the political and social spectrum.

I always though Prescott did the right thing when he biffed the guy who tried to egg him. It probably won him a few votes.😀

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John Ashworth

“He is also heard saying No 10 "will pretty quickly move to safeguard security" if Mr Corbyn were PM.”

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ricardo said:

I always though Prescott did the right thing when he biffed the guy who tried to egg him. It probably won him a few votes.😀

His two Jags were also a popular amongst Brexit types

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boris Johnson's lead over Labour in the 2019 general election has stabilised at 10 points, with the latest opinion polls revealing that Labour’s momentum is falling away as they struggle to narrow the gap.”

Has been like this for some time, Tories seem bombproof around 41% Going to take a massive collapse in Lib Dem support or some serious tactical voting to overturn them

Edited by Van wink

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×