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The Brexit Thread

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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

I wasn't really writing about Labour's (or more accurately Corbyn's) view, just options for the electorate.

But as you asked the logic is that Labour is a democratic party. It considers the will of the people should be paramount. It also considers the May/Johnson withdrawal deal and future direction as incredibly harmful and not what was put to the electorate at the referendum. So the idea is to moderate this into something that protects the electorate and allows the UK to leave safely, offer this up to the electorate and if they still want to leave we will leave. If we vote to stay we will Remain.

And this is Labour's great weakness. Instead of saying 'This is what we the Labour Party believe in and stand for'. They are saying, we will go along with whatever you say. 

That really turns the point of a political party on its head. Why not reduce the whole government process into a series of referendums and let civil servants implement whatever? 

Obviously the system works best when we know what politicians stand for and then they persuade us through the power of argument. Labour doesn't seem to know what it wants at the moment, though I'm sure they have some meaningless slogan such as 'we believe in hope' 

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8 minutes ago, BigFish said:

It was only second reading, with the intention that the Bill could then be amended by the Commons. It was these possible amendments that provoked Johnson into surrendering the 31st October exit and collapsing Parliament.

Very true, but the Labour leadership was very clear that the Boris 'deal' was so bad that all Labour MPs were expected and told to vote against. They didn't, there was no sanction and although some are retiring I think quite a few are Labour candidates in the coming election and still presumably intending to back the Tory hard Brexit, or maybe even no deal.

You say Boris collapsed Parliament but ultimately and bizarrely it was Labour that allowed an election to happen and one they are going to lose - they repeatedly said they were going to take no deal off the table and would oppose a hard Brexit and as part of the 'rebel alliance' were in a position to do just that. But they've done nothing of the sort - they've achieved, at best, a very short delay and then given Boris the election which is going to allow him to implement whatever mad Brexit he chooses.

Its a complete mystery to me whether the Labour leadership is delusional enough to think they are going to come out of this election with a majority or whether they are so strategically inept they simply let Boris take them to a position where they felt they  couldn't say no any longer. But I guess it doesn't really matter now anyway.

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I would rather have watched Ipswich beating Rochdale than watch last night's debate or any other for that matter.

Typically the Mail/Express said Johnson won hands down which is a stupid thing to say to his own supporters. I am not sure that the other tabloids went overboard or mentioned it on the front.

From what I understand the constant Corbyn refusal to answer Johnson's goading about Brexit was an example of the pathetic way politicians go over and over the same point.

I can understand the meaning of Labour's policy. They don't need to be asked how they will canvass or recommend to the electorate. The facts will be presented, not opinions, and people can make up their own minds without persuasion from politicians.

What would be point? Johnson keeps maintaining the silly notion that he has a better deal than May when he hasn't and no amount of questioning or ridicule will get him to say anything else. Farage is even telling him it is worse than May's deal.

And anyone who has voted for the last thirty years will know which way they vote and what leaning they have. So it is down to policies. Johnson tells us we must get Brexit done (endlessly) so his Government  can carry out its duties. So letss hear some policies that are not just ones that make up for the cuts since 2010.

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22 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

Its a complete mystery to me whether the Labour leadership is delusional enough to think they are going to come out of this election with a majority or whether they are so strategically inept they simply let Boris take them to a position where they felt they  couldn't say no any longer. But I guess it doesn't really matter now anyway.

They don' really care. The object is to push the Labour Party in a more Marxist direction. They have purged the Blairites and labelled anyone with moderate views as a right wing Tory. I don't see another defeat as changing anything either. The usual reaction has been to double down and go even further left.

At some stage the voting public might go for it, but I somehow doubt it.

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4 minutes ago, ricardo said:

They don' really care. The object is to push the Labour Party in a more Marxist direction. They have purged the Blairites and labelled anyone with moderate views as a right wing Tory. I don't see another defeat as changing anything either. The usual reaction has been to double down and go even further left.

Well that appears to be the case with some of the advisors around Corbyn but not sure that is so true of Corbyn himself or especially McDonnell who IMO would make a much better leader and who is also one of the very few senior Labour or Tory MPs who, economically at least, isn't totally stuck with 20th century thinking (or 18th century in the case of the many Tories)!

Also think that defeat for Labour may mean changes and that probably won't be to go further left - Keir Starmer is surely a shoe in for the next Labour leader?

But if Boris wins a reasonable majority and the next election doesn't come until 2024 then its pretty academic as the country, and the economy, will be beyond repair by then - actually it probably is already but things will be dramatically worse after 5 years of Boris!

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1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

Would you like a wager on who's going to win the election ?  I feel you maybe the idiot !

You get everything wrong, you f ucking moron.

Happy Halloween 🎃 

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32 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The object is to push the Labour Party in a more Marxist direction.

You post as if there is something wrong with that 😉

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33 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The object is to push the Labour Party in a more Marxist direction.

You post as if there is something wrong with that (is what I meant to post)😉😀

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Very true, but the Labour leadership was very clear that the Boris 'deal' was so bad that all Labour MPs were expected and told to vote against. They didn't, there was no sanction and although some are retiring I think quite a few are Labour candidates in the coming election and still presumably intending to back the Tory hard Brexit, or maybe even no deal.

You say Boris collapsed Parliament but ultimately and bizarrely it was Labour that allowed an election to happen and one they are going to lose - they repeatedly said they were going to take no deal off the table and would oppose a hard Brexit and as part of the 'rebel alliance' were in a position to do just that. But they've done nothing of the sort - they've achieved, at best, a very short delay and then given Boris the election which is going to allow him to implement whatever mad Brexit he chooses.

Its a complete mystery to me whether the Labour leadership is delusional enough to think they are going to come out of this election with a majority or whether they are so strategically inept they simply let Boris take them to a position where they felt they  couldn't say no any longer. But I guess it doesn't really matter now anyway.

👍👍👍👍

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

They don' really care. The object is to push the Labour Party in a more Marxist direction. They have purged the Blairites and labelled anyone with moderate views as a right wing Tory. I don't see another defeat as changing anything either. The usual reaction has been to double down and go even further left.

At some stage the voting public might go for it, but I somehow doubt it.

What do you think of the Conservative pulling to the far right? They have cleared out any moderate and intelligent MP so leaving a lot of usual tory voters homeless. 

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2 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Would you like a wager on who's going to win the election ?  I feel you maybe the idiot !

Nobody else in the thread has used a picture of their pretend instagram girlfriend to try (and fail at a nuclear scale) to make a point about how smart and truthful they are.

Whoever wins the election, you will still be the loser Swindo.

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59 minutes ago, BigFish said:

You post as if there is something wrong with that (is what I meant to 

As long as it never expects to be elected then that is perfectly ok.

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Now I wonder why Boris would say that ....

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1XU1UX?__twitter_impression=true

..... the report I believe clearly says that there was Russian interference - certainly the US version said just that, although the President denies it and William Barr is running around the world to find someone to back up the President. 

And his “no need to publish just because there was an election coming up” should be pushed back on - the question is “ was publishing the report delayed because there was an election coming up ? “ 

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33 minutes ago, Herman said:

What do you think of the Conservative pulling to the far right? They have cleared out any moderate and intelligent MP so leaving a lot of usual tory voters homeless. 

Once Brexit is over and the threat of Corbyn is ended I expect we will return to more sensible politics.

 

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Once Brexit is over and the threat of Corbyn is ended I expect we will return to more sensible politics.

We are becoming more polarised and if the Tories are elected, which looks likely, they are going to have to soften the impact of Brexit. And if they follow their pattern of making the base of the pyramid take the strain then I fear our politics may become even nastier. Shareholders have been protected for a long time now and the cost has been borne by the majority. If interest rates rise, and  I fear they will, then people may end up thinking that Corbyn wasn't so bad after all.

 

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8 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Once Brexit is over and the threat of Corbyn is ended I expect we will return to more sensible politics.

 

I think that is highly unlikely - as far as the sensible bit is concerned!

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2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I would rather have watched Ipswich beating Rochdale than watch last night's debate or any other for that matter.

Typically the Mail/Express said Johnson won hands down which is a stupid thing to say to his own supporters. I am not sure that the other tabloids went overboard or mentioned it on the front.

 

I didn't watch the debate last night, for the same reason I no longer watch Question Time. One knows in advance who will say what and why. There is very little originality and a lot of scripting going on. On QT the only interesting part is the non-politician spot, where whoever occupies that spot usually has something fresh or unexpected to say.

Edited by Rock The Boat
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11 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Once Brexit is over and the threat of Corbyn is ended I expect we will return to more sensible politics.

Brexit won't be over anytime soon

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2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Brexit won't be over anytime soon

Will you be campaigning to rejoin.

Or are you waiting for euro / pound parity😉

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16 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Once Brexit is over and the threat of Corbyn is ended I expect we will return to more sensible politics.

 

One of the interesting facts about the 2017 election is that May received a larger vote than Cameron did in 2015.The reason why she did so badly is that all the anti-tory vote that was dispersed in 2015 came back to Labour in 2017. Which why there was a #WinforCorbyn meme going around at that time. If the LibDem vote drifts back to Labour as the polls seem to be indicating then even a Labour loss could see Corbyn remaining as Leader if they get anywhere near the 2017 numbers. There is still a long way to go until December 12th

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31 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Once Brexit is over and the threat of Corbyn is ended I expect we will return to more sensible politics.

 

Apropos of nothing, here is a classic rock track.

 

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Once Brexit is over and the threat of Corbyn is ended I expect we will return to more sensible politics.

 

To use my favourite legal term, that is total b*ll*cks. 

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