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The Positive Brexit Thread

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1 minute ago, BigFish said:

I'll give you the first one, although you did rather jumble the architects and totalatarianism together in your post. In part this looks deliberate as in your third paragraph you do totally misinterprete Brutalism. Where the modernist architect Le Corbusier, probably accidently, did initiate Brutalism with the Unité d’Habitation in 1952 modernism and brutalism are very different and there is no clear derivation from the Bauhaus.

Rather than being totalitarian it was partly based on the ideas of social equality and hope, unity and shared space. Probably, the polar opposite to Ayn Rand (but no I haven't read The Fountainhead). Brutalist architecture was also often associated with futurism, a bright outlook on the future, utopian. Anyone who has wandered down the Thames passed the National Theatre, QEH, Purcell Room and Heyward Gallery would recognise this and reject your intrepretation above. I can't see many Londoners would welcome the demolition of these Brutalist buildings.

Precisely. I did not accuse architects like Le Corbusier with totalitarianism, but their style of domination of a landscape with unnatural materials & shapes fitted very well with those of a dictatorial persuasion. I daresay many 18th C aristocrats would have loved to lord it over the peasants in such a way - except there was a classical way of looking at the world then, that man reflects nature & nature man. They did not see either as perfectible in the way that later ideologies did.

I found Rand's philosophical outlook very interesting, even though I disagreed with a lot of it.

'Social equality and hope, unity and shared space' sound terrific, except there is little hope for the average man when social equality means the lazy drunkard down the way is as well rewarded as he is, due to social equality. Unity? Again, being of exactly the same mind & opinion as all his neighbours? And, should he disagree, what then? As for shared space ...

I've been to the Barbican a few times & thoroughly enjoyed it. But I think it's very much an exception; paradoxically it's the contrast to the more traditional building forms that give it a charm & novelty which would soon disappear under a multitude of such buildings.

Diversity you see. You can't beat it!

 

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2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Seems like WHO don't want to recognise Taiwan. So much for impartiality. 

 

Err... how could he answer that impartially other than by ignoring the question? Says yes he pi55es off China. Says no he pi55es off Taiwan. 

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On 28/03/2020 at 09:19, Rock The Boat said:

Seems like WHO don't want to recognise Taiwan. So much for impartiality. 

I didn't realize the WHO was a Brexit issue. Is it relevant because their HQ is somewhere in Europe?

Edited by Surfer

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9 minutes ago, Surfer said:

I didn't realize the WHO was a Brexit issue. Is it relevant that because their HQ is somewhere in Europe?

No but they're experts aren't they, and Brexiteers don't like experts, especially foreign ones, and most especially foreign ones who highlight the incompetence of the UK government.

And anyway we don't need them, Boris is more than capable of highlighting this government's incompetence all on his own and if he does happen to need any help then we've got idiots like Raab, Hancock and Patel to lend a hand.

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On 18/03/2020 at 21:04, Van wink said:

Not seen much from the EU on the Covid 19 outbreak, in fact they have shown no leadership whatsoever and individual member states have all gone their own way, closing borders, Germany blocking shipments of face masks to its neighbours,  Italians getting more help from China than from EU member states. The EU appears to have been an irrelevance and lost its voice at a time when we see the greatest threat to Europe since the world war. Where are you? Lets be 'avin you!!

EU countries are reverting to a familiar mantra in times of crisis: Buy local!

Some countries have betrayed a shaky sense of European solidarity in the early days of the coronavirus crisis, and a half-hearted commitment to the internal market. Borders have shut, countries have been reluctant to export medical equipment and northern countries have shot down the idea of a pan-European debt instrument dubbed "corona bonds."

 

This week, France's Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire stoked further suspicions that charity really begins at home in the EU by calling on retailers to be "economically patriotic" and favor products from French farmers.

"I call on major distributors to make a new effort: stock up on French products," he said on France Info radio.

Le Maire's call came after Prime Minister Edouard Philippe announced on Monday evening that open-air food markets would be closed. Almost simultaneously, Agriculture Minister Didier Guillaume encouraged citizens "to make a gesture of alimentary patriotism" and "buy French" in an interview with BFM TV.

Supermarket chain Carrefour said it would stop selling fruit and vegetables of foreign origin when there is a French alternative.

In Italy, Minister of Foreign Affairs Luigi Di Maio appealed to the population of the worst-hit country to "Buy Italian."

"The first economic measure that all Italians can get involved in at this moment is to buy Italian ... and help our businesses," Di Maio said in an interview with public TV broadcaster RAI, while making clear that his appeal was only addressed to citizens who can afford it.

A similar call also came from Portugal, where the economy minister asked the population to buy domestic products, as reported by the Lisbon newspaper Público.

Politically, the doctrine of encouraging consumers to buy locally has played well in the nationalist camp. In Italy, Di Maio's words echoed those from the leaders of far-right opposition parties Matteo Salvini and Giorgia Meloni, who both asked Italians to buy "Made in Italy" wares.

 

Similarly in France, where the leader of the far-right National Rally party Marine Le Pen welcomed Le Maire's move in as "essential and urgent."

Gripes against gastronationalists

French gastronationalism is, however, a very long-running bugbear in neighboring countries. Belgium consistently points out, for example, that its farmers have far shorter supply chains with supermarkets in northern France than suppliers from southern France. Even back in 2017, Belgium complained that French labeling of products as French-made slashed its milk exports to its western neighbor.

Speaking with POLITICO, Belgian Finance Minister Alexander De Croo was quick to warn of intra-European moves towards economic nationalism.

 

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If they are closing borders and restricting international travel surely it makes logical sense to buy local.

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2 minutes ago, Herman said:

If they are closing borders and restricting international travel surely it makes logical sense to buy local.

Terrific from an Environmental perspective.

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9 minutes ago, Herman said:

If they are closing borders and restricting international travel surely it makes logical sense to buy local.

We are spoilt with the delights offered by UK fresh fruit and veg producers in March

Could be a whole new health epidemic as scurvy takes a grip

Edited by BigFish

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2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

We are spoilt with the delights offered by UK fresh fruit and veg suppliers in March

Could be a whole new health epidemic as scurvy takes a grip

A nice, refreshing glass of turnip juice for breakfast.😀

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

Happy first Brexit day by the way.

Life has certainly changed

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3 hours ago, Van wink said:

EU countries are reverting to a familiar mantra in times of crisis: Buy local!

Some countries have betrayed a shaky sense of European solidarity in the early days of the coronavirus crisis, and a half-hearted commitment to the internal market. Borders have shut, countries have been reluctant to export medical equipment and northern countries have shot down the idea of a pan-European debt instrument dubbed "corona bonds."

 

This week, France's Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire stoked further suspicions that charity really begins at home in the EU by calling on retailers to be "economically patriotic" and favor products from French farmers.

"I call on major distributors to make a new effort: stock up on French products," he said on France Info radio.

Le Maire's call came after Prime Minister Edouard Philippe announced on Monday evening that open-air food markets would be closed. Almost simultaneously, Agriculture Minister Didier Guillaume encouraged citizens "to make a gesture of alimentary patriotism" and "buy French" in an interview with BFM TV.

Supermarket chain Carrefour said it would stop selling fruit and vegetables of foreign origin when there is a French alternative.

In Italy, Minister of Foreign Affairs Luigi Di Maio appealed to the population of the worst-hit country to "Buy Italian."

"The first economic measure that all Italians can get involved in at this moment is to buy Italian ... and help our businesses," Di Maio said in an interview with public TV broadcaster RAI, while making clear that his appeal was only addressed to citizens who can afford it.

A similar call also came from Portugal, where the economy minister asked the population to buy domestic products, as reported by the Lisbon newspaper Público.

Politically, the doctrine of encouraging consumers to buy locally has played well in the nationalist camp. In Italy, Di Maio's words echoed those from the leaders of far-right opposition parties Matteo Salvini and Giorgia Meloni, who both asked Italians to buy "Made in Italy" wares.

 

Similarly in France, where the leader of the far-right National Rally party Marine Le Pen welcomed Le Maire's move in as "essential and urgent."

Gripes against gastronationalists

French gastronationalism is, however, a very long-running bugbear in neighboring countries. Belgium consistently points out, for example, that its farmers have far shorter supply chains with supermarkets in northern France than suppliers from southern France. Even back in 2017, Belgium complained that French labeling of products as French-made slashed its milk exports to its western neighbor.

Speaking with POLITICO, Belgian Finance Minister Alexander De Croo was quick to warn of intra-European moves towards economic nationalism.

 

Yet another knife in the heart of the EU

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2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Yet another knife in the heart of the EU

BS. Wait until this immediate crisis is over, then you can make that call. 

Your héros on the other side of the Atlantic are making a right mess of their response. Thank God our Boris hasn't been able to give control of the NHS to Donald and his ilk.  

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10 hours ago, Surfer said:

BS. Wait until this immediate crisis is over, then you can make that call. 

Your héros on the other side of the Atlantic are making a right mess of their response. Thank God our Boris hasn't been able to give control of the NHS to Donald and his ilk.  

If there is one thing this whole crisis shows that in times like this there is no substitute for collective action. Even the PM explicitly rejects Thatcher's no such thing as  society amidst big state policies of nationalisation and social security. If anything the principles of the EU are likely to emerge stronger. At the same time many of the Brexiteers wilder fantasies, replacing the NHS with private insurance look dead for a generation. Finally, as Surfer says we only have to look to the US for the alternative. There will not be many takers for that model when this is finished.

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50 minutes ago, BigFish said:

If there is one thing this whole crisis shows that in times like this there is no substitute for collective action. Even the PM explicitly rejects Thatcher's no such thing as  society amidst big state policies of nationalisation and social security. If anything the principles of the EU are likely to emerge stronger. At the same time many of the Brexiteers wilder fantasies, replacing the NHS with private insurance look dead for a generation. Finally, as Surfer says we only have to look to the US for the alternative. There will not be many takers for that model when this is finished.

Funnily enough, I’ve never met anybody, irrespective of their voting preferences, that has ever wanted to replace the NHS with the American system, and I very much doubt you have either. Strange example to use to attack those that don’t like the EU. In fact most European systems require some kind of insurance and are much more reliant on the private sector than the NHS, and I wouldn’t want those either 

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To "get Brexit done" you voted overwhelmingly for a party that was going to replace the NHS with an American style system or near as dammit. These things are linked and you can't pretend it had nothing to do with you. 

Edited by Herman

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1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

Funnily enough, I’ve never met anybody, irrespective of their voting preferences, that has ever wanted to replace the NHS with the American system, and I very much doubt you have either. Strange example to use to attack those that don’t like the EU. In fact most European systems require some kind of insurance and are much more reliant on the private sector than the NHS, and I wouldn’t want those either 

Farage, Hannan, Gove, Institute of Economic Affairs.........just a quick list.

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EU Leaders are reverting to the nationalism,  they have publicly claimed to have despised ! Are you glad we left ? If we had remained in,all our ventilators would have to be shared.

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16 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

EU Leaders are reverting to the nationalism,  they have publicly claimed to have despised ! Are you glad we left ? If we had remained in,all our ventilators would have to be shared.

Known liar lies again.

 

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2 hours ago, Herman said:

To "get Brexit done" you voted overwhelmingly for a party that was going to replace the NHS with an American style system or near as dammit. These things are linked and you can't pretend it had nothing to do with you. 

Well perhaps you could link it for us because I can't see anything in the key points of the governments manifesto.

https://www.nhsconfed.org/resources/2019/11/conservative-manifesto-briefing

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So you decided to ignore the previous ten years of evidence? Bravo Ricardo. Well absolved. 

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I'm just thinking that the current business disruption, shortages in supermarkets and general mayhem are a good dry run for WTO terms etc. Well be used to it by then. 

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Just now, Herman said:

So you decided to ignore the previous ten years of evidence? Bravo Ricardo. Well absolved. 

As a regular patient at the cancer clinic for the last eleven years I can only say that the idea that services have been run down, does not coincide with my experience.

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Our Remainer friends used to be so self confident, now all I see is straw clutching. What's going on between member states atm doesn't surprise me in the least, it shows that the cohesion of the union is weak, much more suited to a trading relationship, and nothing more.

Edited by Van wink

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6 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Our Remainer friends used to be so self confident, now all I see is straw clutching. What's going on between member states atm doesn't surprise me in the least, it shows that the cohesion of the union is weak, much more suited to a trading relationship, and nothing more.

You seem to be the only one trying to breathe life into a non story, this is your third attempt and your third failure.

 

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9 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Our Remainer friends used to be so self confident, now all I see is straw clutching. What's going on between member states atm doesn't surprise me in the least, it shows that the cohesion of the union is weak, much more suited to a trading relationship, and nothing more.

 

1 minute ago, A Load of Squit said:

You seem to be the only one trying to breathe life into a non story, this is your third attempt and your third failure.

 

Frankly all it shows me is that in extremis (the virus - which is hardly a fair test for anybody) that the individual states have and enjoy their sovereignty to do their own thing. That rather goes against the 'superstate' mantra we've heard so much rubbish about. If it was it may have been better able to marshall the required resources quicker to the worse affected areas - but it's not so the Brexiter false argument fails yet again. No news there.

I suspect once the dust has settled there will be some sense in having a common pooled resource (ie.e PPE and so on) for such emergencies.

 

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14 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

You seem to be the only one trying to breathe life into a non story, this is your third attempt and your third failure.

 

Most people don't care anymore as we have left, I only mention it for your information😚

Just for you Squit :

 

Germany's refusal to embrace 'coronabonds' amid the crisis could threaten the European Union's very survival

Italy’s political leaders from Left to Right have erupted in fury over the EU’s minimalist, insulting, and cack-handed response to the Covid-19 pandemic, warning that lack of economic solidarity risks pushing the bloc’s festering divisions beyond the point of no return. 

“Don’t make a tragic mistake. The whole European edifice risks losing its raison d’etre,” said the Italian premier, Giuseppe Conte, demanding a giant Marshall Plan funded on the EU’s joint credit card to relaunch the productive system once the current nightmare is over.

Edited by Van wink

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