The Positive Brexit Thread

[ricardo 7,349]

3 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

 

And the 'pop' music is simply execrable. I wonder why Euro-pop is uniformly naff?

 

Surely not Ron

Even Johnny Hallyday?

😁😁😁😁

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

1 hour ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

 

Oh good lord! 

[ron obvious 1,501]

10 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

'National characteristics are not easy to pin down, and when pinned down they often turn out to be trivialities or seem to have no connection with one another. Spaniards are cruel to animals, Italians can do nothing without making a deafening noise, the Chinese are addicted to gambling. Obviously such things don’t matter in themselves. Nevertheless, nothing is causeless, and even the fact that Englishmen have bad teeth can tell something about the realities of English life.

'Here are a couple of generalizations about England that would be accepted by almost all observers. One is that the English are not gifted artistically. They are not as musical as the Germans or Italians, painting and sculpture have never flourished in England as they have in France.

'Another is that, as Europeans go, the English are not intellectual. They have a horror of abstract thought, they feel no need for any philosophy or systematic “world-view”. Nor is this because they are “practical”, as they are so fond of claiming for themselves.

'One has only to look at their methods of town-planning and water-supply, their obstinate clinging to everything that is out of date and a nuisance, a spelling system that defies analysis, and a system of weights and measures that is intelligible only to the compilers of arithmetic books, to see how little they care about mere efficiency.'

The English are pragmatic. They do no not believe in trying to apply grand philosophical systems with no grounding in physical reality, unlike the French - their instincts are to reject reality when it clashes with the beautiful theory.

it is not a 'horror' of abstract thought. We have produced many great philosophers, mathematicians & scientists. But we accept that when the empirical evidence disagrees with the abstract theory then reality wins.

One of the results of European systems of abstract thought trumping the reality of human existence is the Brutalist form of architecture where people are reduced to cogs in a machine. This suits the authoritarian nature of regimes of the left & right where fear & hatred of the mass of humanity leads to dictatorship where those in command can quell any aspirations of individuality. The Communists & Nazis used direct, vicious authoritarian methods which ultimately, fortunately, failed.

The French method is less harsh, but still seeks to control everything via a dirigiste economy & a vast bureaucracy. 

It doesn't suit me & I doubt it suits the English temperament.

 

[Surfer 1,547]

9 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

'National characteristics are not easy to pin down, and when pinned down they often turn out to be trivialities or seem to have no connection with one another. Spaniards are cruel to animals, Italians can do nothing without making a deafening noise, the Chinese are addicted to gambling. Obviously such things don’t matter in themselves. Nevertheless, nothing is causeless, and even the fact that Englishmen have bad teeth can tell something about the realities of English life.

'Here are a couple of generalizations about England that would be accepted by almost all observers. One is that the English are not gifted artistically. They are not as musical as the Germans or Italians, painting and sculpture have never flourished in England as they have in France.

'Another is that, as Europeans go, the English are not intellectual. They have a horror of abstract thought, they feel no need for any philosophy or systematic “world-view”. Nor is this because they are “practical”, as they are so fond of claiming for themselves.

'One has only to look at their methods of town-planning and water-supply, their obstinate clinging to everything that is out of date and a nuisance, a spelling system that defies analysis, and a system of weights and measures that is intelligible only to the compilers of arithmetic books, to see how little they care about mere efficiency.'

Orwell eh? Wrote a few books but not necessarily an expert on the everything else.... 

Dobson, Reynolds, Blake, Turner, Constable,  

Shakespeare, Burns, Yeats, and on and on and on, 

Handel, Purcell, Elgar, Holst just to list out classical music,

Marx and Engels created the theory of Communism in England,

William of Occam, Bacon, Locke, Boyle, were all major philosophers, 

Keynes defined economic ideas followed by the West for almost a century 

Politics - Magna Carta, Parliament,  Bill of Rights (and hence US Constitution) 

As for sculpture, it's a function of Catholism and absolute monarchy that monies are available for massive and expensive works of art. Those money sources died out in England after Henry VIII. 

As for being practical, yes we are (albeit some are "re-inventions" after Chinese or Arabs) - pocket watch, atomic clock, selective breeding, sewing machine, mainframe computer, pencil, electric motors, radar, fingerprints, blast furnaces, turbines, vulcanized rubber ...... etc etc. Maybe too busy for "ideas" ? 

 

 

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

Your post has proved my point though how you look to up to Europe but down on your homeland. You say how the Germans are more musical, but what music has come out of Germany since the days of Beethoven? UK bands and the music scene has been popular worldwide for the last 60 years but it’s simply ignored.

I can’t argue with art as it’s not a subject I’m familiar with but a walk round any of our major cities and you’ll see some fantastic architecture which to me is artistic in its way. 

You handily leave out literature, which has been a strength for centuries, and the numerous inventions as a country since the industrial revolution. We may be fans of tradition but so is every country, and the spelling may be all over the place but that’s because English is a mash up of many languages. Is it any more daft than the French having masculine and feminine inanimate objects? 

We’ve as much to be proud of as any nation in Europe, yet people, especially those on the middle class left, simply choose not to see it

Oh dear. As Surfer has realized that is not me but Orwell, and from the same Lion and Unicorn essay you quoted. Only it comes earlier on and puts your later passage into some context.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

1 hour ago, Surfer said:

Orwell eh? Wrote a few books but not necessarily an expert on the everything else.... 

Dobson, Reynolds, Blake, Turner, Constable,  

Shakespeare, Burns, Yeats, and on and on and on, 

Handel, Purcell, Elgar, Holst just to list out classical music,

Marx and Engels created the theory of Communism in England,

William of Occam, Bacon, Locke, Boyle, were all major philosophers, 

Keynes defined economic ideas followed by the West for almost a century 

Politics - Magna Carta, Parliament,  Bill of Rights (and hence US Constitution) 

As for sculpture, it's a function of Catholism and absolute monarchy that monies are available for massive and expensive works of art. Those money sources died out in England after Henry VIII. 

As for being practical, yes we are (albeit some are "re-inventions" after Chinese or Arabs) - pocket watch, atomic clock, selective breeding, sewing machine, mainframe computer, pencil, electric motors, radar, fingerprints, blast furnaces, turbines, vulcanized rubber ...... etc etc. Maybe too busy for "ideas" ? 

 

 

 

 

I think Orwell is right in some areas of the arts. I am not an expert on classical music but I suspect an expert would say Purcell was the only truly great English composer, and the others were in the second rank. Equally there is not the painting tradition you have in France and Italy particularly. Against that English literature is certainly in the first rank. Not sure Yeats and Burns would think themselves English...

 

[Surfer 1,547]

48 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Not sure Yeats and Burns would think themselves English...

The English King did... but fair point. British then. The English nationalist thing is quite new. 

[BigFish 1,986]

10 hours ago, ron obvious said:

One of the results of European systems of abstract thought trumping the reality of human existence is the Brutalist form of architecture where people are reduced to cogs in a machine. This suits the authoritarian nature of regimes of the left & right where fear & hatred of the mass of humanity leads to dictatorship where those in command can quell any aspirations of individuality. The Communists & Nazis used direct, vicious authoritarian methods which ultimately, fortunately, failed.

Brutalist architecture is post war, nothing to do with Communists and Nazis

[BigFish 1,986]

On 27/03/2020 at 02:19, Fen Canary said:

My point is the way the largely middle class look up to Europe in particular, and down on their fellow countrymen and women, Emily Thornberry’s now infamous tweet with the white van and St George’s Cross being a prime example.

A point for which the only supporting evidence seems to be writings from the middle of the last century. The fact that this old trope has led to a debate on the comparative merit of British, or English, culture compared to other European nations tells you that the idea is rooted in xenophobia. I am with Johnson (Samuel), patriotism really is the last refuge of the scoundrel. The strength of English, and I use the term deliberately is its lack of nationalism, its mongrel nature and the ability to steal the ideas of other nations. Many English have been ill-served by globalisation and the free market but this wasn't down to Europeans, this was done to them by their own governments. Particularly those of Thatcher and Cameron. They have been sold Brexit as a diversion from the real culprits. Classic divide and rule.

Edited March 28, 2020 by BigFish

[Fen Canary 797]

36 minutes ago, BigFish said:

A point for which the only supporting evidence seems to be writings from the middle of the last century. The fact that this old trope has led to a debate on the comparative merit of British, or English, culture compared to other European nations tells you that the idea is rooted in xenophobia. I am with Johnson (Samuel), patriotism really is the last refuge of the scoundrel. The strength of English, and I use the term deliberately is its lack of nationalism, its mongrel nature and the ability to steal the ideas of other nations. Many English have been ill-served by globalisation and the free market but this wasn't down to Europeans, this was done to them by their own governments. Particularly those of Thatcher and Cameron. They have been sold Brexit as a diversion from the real culprits. Classic divide and rule.

Actually that was a single point among many, going back a few pages on this thread. I questioned why the slightest sign of English nationalism is frowned upon and dismissed as racism, yet many posters on here, especially amongst the middle class and left leaning openly support Scottish and Irish nationalism. As I said this isn’t a new phenomenon, as these groups have looked down on their fellow countrymen and women and their own culture for a long time, hence Orwell’s quote. 

This same demographic has also always looked up to Europe, happily pointing out any faults amongst the UK, yet happily ignoring those same faults on the continent, and I think this may help explain the vitriol towards the largely working class Leave voters following the referendum. In their eyes the vote has taken them away from those they’ve always admired more than their fellow nationals. 

This admittedly did descend into various groups pointing out the good and bad bits of English and European cultures, and their  gifts to the world

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

43 minutes ago, BigFish said:

A point for which the only supporting evidence seems to be writings from the middle of the last century. The fact that this old trope has led to a debate on the comparative merit of British, or English, culture compared to other European nations tells you that the idea is rooted in xenophobia. I am with Johnson (Samuel), patriotism really is the last refuge of the scoundrel. The strength of English, and I use the term deliberately is its lack of nationalism, its mongrel nature and the ability to steal the ideas of other nations. Many English have been ill-served by globalisation and the free market but this wasn't down to Europeans, this was done to them by their own governments. Particularly those of Thatcher and Cameron. They have been sold Brexit as a diversion from the real culprits. Classic divide and rule.

You seem to be implying that globalisation and free markets are an English construction, the architects being Thatcher and Cameron. I don't know what Major did to escape your ire but clearly globalisation started long before those two PMs arrived on the scene. Thatcher and Cameron, like every other leader in the world made use of the globalisation movement and embraced free markets to a greater or lesser degree depending on their political beliefs. In the case of the two people you highlight they were both vigorous supporters of free markets so it seems strange to accuse them of using Brexit as a diversion from something that they championed. It's also somewhat ironic to accuse Brexit and its supporters of using Brexit as a diversionary tactic from globalisation when during the Brexit campaign when leavers were being painted by Remainers as Little Englanders who wanted to withdraw from the world and turn the clock back to non-globalist times. 

[ron obvious 1,501]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

Brutalist architecture is post war, nothing to do with Communists and Nazis

It has everything to do with Communists &  Nazis. It's the final flowering of ideas floating around since the 19th C & began to be expressed by architects like Le Corbusier: 'machines for living', Gropius, Mies van  der Rohe.

Now I'm sure the sentiments driving the advocates of industrial type domestic architecture weren't necessarily evil, any more than Nietzsche's philosophy was designed to justify **** ideology, or Darwin believed his theory of evolution should be used to justify the miseries of poverty, but it enabled those with an authoritarian & callous frame of mind to justify the dehumanisation of the individual, to see him as simply the cog in a machine of a great & glorious future (designed by their betters of course).

Incidentally, have you read Thomas Mann's Doctor Faustus? A very black comedy about German susceptibility to grand idealistic theories of perfection.

[ron obvious 1,501]

N a z i is a banned word now??

Seriously, this is getting scary.

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

I find this an interesting quote from your post BF. 

The strength of English, and I use the term deliberately is its lack of nationalism, its mongrel nature and the ability to steal the ideas of other nations

it sums up the passive-agressive tone of many English haters by being both vague and yet negative at the same time. Perhaps the vagueness is a method of diverting the attention away from the lack of reasoning behind the statements. 

for example, to state that the English have an ability to steal others ideas is to misunderstand how ideas are formed, from whence they came and how they become accepted, especially in this globalised world. No idea is truly original, all is built on that which has gone before and national boundaries prove to be a very poor barrier to the spread of ideas. That the English nation stands in the breeze of ideas as they swirl through time and space is very little different to other nations. You might argue that the English have been good at capturing and adopting ideas but that seems more like a positive to me. 

so the English are of a mongrel nature? Well that puts my white privilege firmly in its place. I thought I was a cultural colonialist. It's good to hear that I am in fact just a mixed up jamboree bag of DNA much like every other country. 

And where do we begin with your claim that the English lack nationalism? Oh Jerusalem! I am lost for words and Brexit didn't happen. 

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

 It's also somewhat ironic to accuse Brexit and its supporters of using Brexit as a diversionary tactic from globalisation when during the Brexit campaign when leavers were being painted by Remainers as Little Englanders who wanted to withdraw from the world and turn the clock back to non-globalist times. 

It seems I did not make myseld clear. Globalisation, the EU and foreigners in general were used by right-wing Brexiteers to deflect from the fact that much of the discontent from the left behind was the responsibility of decisions of our own, UK government. Thatcher shut down UK heavy industry, immascalated the unions & left many Brexit voting areas to rot in the doctinaire belief that markets should not be interferred with. All paid for by Scottish oil revenues. Cameron cut back the state to the bare bones and doubled down on benefits. Of course the victims felt hard done by and when given the chance to blame some "evil other" they fell for it.

Edited March 28, 2020 by BigFish

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

Actually that was a single point among many, going back a few pages on this thread. I questioned why the slightest sign of English nationalism is frowned upon and dismissed as racism, yet many posters on here, especially amongst the middle class and left leaning openly support Scottish and Irish nationalism. As I said this isn’t a new phenomenon, as these groups have looked down on their fellow countrymen and women and their own culture for a long time, hence Orwell’s quote. 

This same demographic has also always looked up to Europe, happily pointing out any faults amongst the UK, yet happily ignoring those same faults on the continent, and I think this may help explain the vitriol towards the largely working class Leave voters following the referendum. In their eyes the vote has taken them away from those they’ve always admired more than their fellow nationals.

You raise a good point on a view theat English nationalism is bad, Irish & Scottish nationalism is bad. All nationalism is divisive and brings no benefit to those involved. However, I think that the idea there is a demographic in England that uniquely denigrates Britain in favour of Europe is a largely invented trope, useful to feed to those who feel they have been unfairly treated to get them to vote for outcomes that are not in their interest.

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

Far far too much petty ignorant nationalism from many on here. 

Just anybody who actually goes to any of these places, meets any of these people knows that all peoples are very much the same as individuals good bad and indifferent. Geography and climate certainly also play a part in cultural norms - too hot to work at midday in some places but most of what I read above is pure outdated tropism. By the way us 'Anglo-Saxons' are actually Germans - the hint is in the name.

Best place for it is in gentle jokes - my favourite being the Norwegian professor going to work in Sweden "When I go to Sweden the average IQ of both countries will rise!". Same could be said for anybody apparently going to Swindon. I have 6 (webbed) fingers by the way coming from Norfolk!

Let it rest and enter the 21st century and not be stuck in the 19th or early 20th.

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

It has everything to do with Communists &  Nazis. It's the final flowering of ideas floating around since the 19th C & began to be expressed by architects like Le Corbusier: 'machines for living', Gropius, Mies van  der Rohe.

Gropius a n a z i????????????? Really? Now you really are giving me a laugh in isolation😉

I think you may be confusing your architecture styles

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

And where do we begin with your claim that the English lack nationalism? Oh Jerusalem! I am lost for words and Brexit didn't happen. 

English nationalism is a fairly recent development, the flag of St George was only rarely in evidence, instead it was the Union Flag that usually got waved. Nationalism tends to be the refuge of small states and marginalised people. Larger states and empowered people have no need for it. The rise of English nationalism may be down to a growing realisation of England's diminished status in the world.

Edited March 28, 2020 by BigFish

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

 

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

It seems I did not make myseld clear. Globalisation, the EU and foreigners in general were used by right-wing Brexiteers to deflect from the fact that much of the discontent from the left behind was the responsibility of decisions of our own, UK government. Thatcher shut down UK heavy industry, immascalated the unions & left many Brexit voting areas to rot in the doctinaire belief that markets should not be interferred with. All paid for by Scottish oil revenues. Cameron cut back the state to the bare bones and doubled down on benefits. Of course the victims felt hard done by and when given the chance to blame some "evil other" they fell for it.

Absolutely spot on, and not just right wing Brexiteers - Cameron for six years regarlarly used the EU as a scapegoat for his own government's economic and social incompetence, right up to the point when he decided he wanted people to vote for it.

What a ****ing idiot he was!!

[BigFish 1,986]

21 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

 

Pretty irrelevent at the moment

[Herman 9,717]

I think this is pretty much spot on.

 

[ron obvious 1,501]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

Gropius a n a z i????????????? Really? Now you really are giving me a laugh in isolation😉

I think you may be confusing your architecture styles

I think you may be confusing what I wrote, with what's going on in your head.

Read it again.

[BigFish 1,986]

19 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

I think you may be confusing what I wrote, with what's going on in your head.

Read it again.

It wasn't me that confused a post-war architectual style with one deployed by authoritarian regimes earlier in the century and then doubled down on it when questioned with a list of architects who deployed different styles.

Edited March 28, 2020 by BigFish

[ron obvious 1,501]

14 minutes ago, BigFish said:

It wasn't me that confused a post-war architectual style with one deployed by authoritarian regimes earlier in the century and then doubled down on it when questioned with a list of architects who deployed different styles.

And it wasn't me that called Gropius a N azi.

Are you telling me that Brutalism didn't develop out of movements such as the Bauhaus?

The authoritarian regimes derived their architectural styles from architects with a similar mind set, i.e. the perfectibility of man through architecture, & man reduced to some sort of component in a vast machine.

Their styles may have been slightly different, but the common factor was to use industrial techniques to dominate the landscape.

Have you ever read The Fountainhead?

 

[Surfer 1,547]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

 

Yes, its called "rally around the flag" happens early in every crisis. Even Donald Trump moved up to 51%, of course George Bush was at 92% after Sept 11, but then he showed a flicker of humanity and compassion. An idiot, but still a leader.  

But when it starts to drop, it'll drop quickly, as there is no reservoir of good will. But to drop it does also need a viable alternative. In UK, Corbin is still "it" for Labour.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Surfer

[Surfer 1,547]

Meanwhile ... why is the government still lying to the UK people? Why invent an excuse?

If they didn't want to take part in the EU purchase scheme, why not say so. Why lie?

 

[BigFish 1,986]

13 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

And it wasn't me that called Gropius a N azi.

Are you telling me that Brutalism didn't develop out of movements such as the Bauhaus?

The authoritarian regimes derived their architectural styles from architects with a similar mind set, i.e. the perfectibility of man through architecture, & man reduced to some sort of component in a vast machine.

Their styles may have been slightly different, but the common factor was to use industrial techniques to dominate the landscape.

Have you ever read The Fountainhead?

 

I'll give you the first one, although you did rather jumble the architects and totalatarianism together in your post. In part this looks deliberate as in your third paragraph you do totally misinterprete Brutalism. Where the modernist architect Le Corbusier, probably accidently, did initiate Brutalism with the Unité d’Habitation in 1952 modernism and brutalism are very different and there is no clear derivation from the Bauhaus.

Rather than being totalitarian it was partly based on the ideas of social equality and hope, unity and shared space. Probably, the polar opposite to Ayn Rand (but no I haven't read The Fountainhead). Brutalist architecture was also often associated with futurism, a bright outlook on the future, utopian. Anyone who has wandered down the Thames passed the National Theatre, QEH, Purcell Room and Heyward Gallery would recognise this and reject your intrepretation above. I can't see many Londoners would welcome the demolition of these Brutalist buildings.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

13 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Meanwhile ... why is the government still lying to the UK people? Why invent an excuse?

If they didn't want to take part in the EU purchase scheme, why not say so. Why lie?

 

.........perhaps because it comes naturally?

.........or it's worked well for them so far so why change?