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The Positive Brexit Thread

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25 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I don’t believe there will be, but even if there was it’s irrelevant. People listened to all the warnings from the Remain camp about an economic apocalypse and decided that either the risks were massively overstated or that Leaving was worth it anyway

No they weren't. They didn't believe any of the warnings.We witnessed it on here. The government leaflet on brexit went from "project fear lies" to "we knew what we were voting for because it told us in the government leaflet."

You may have fooled yourself that you haven't been conned but a lot of us know you have.

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17 minutes ago, Herman said:

No they weren't. They didn't believe any of the warnings.We witnessed it on here. The government leaflet on brexit went from "project fear lies" to "we knew what we were voting for because it told us in the government leaflet."

You may have fooled yourself that you haven't been conned but a lot of us know you have.

You’re right, I’m too stupid to know what I was voting for. Myself and a majority of voters only voted the way we did because we were tricked, not because we want what we believe is best for the country. Thank the Lord we have intelligent people like yourself to point this out to us. The recession, massive job losses, FTSE crash and emergency budget that happened immediately after the Leave vote, just as you predicted, proved that we should have listened to you all along. 

On a serious note, as you’ve just pointed out, it’s hard to say people didn’t know what they were voting for when every household in the UK received a government pamphlet outlining what they believed were the risks of Leaving, so perhaps we can stop this idea that 17 million people voted Leave because of ignorance 

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40 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Why is it that England seems to be the only country where the middle classes seem to hate their own country? It’s not a new phenomenon as it has been commented on as far back as Churchill and Orwell, who once noted they’d feel less shame stealing from a poor box than they would singing the national anthem. This seems to be the undercurrent to the whole Brexit debate, many of those most anti leaving are so because it means the UK moves slightly further away from Europe, whom they’ve always believed are culturally superior to their own countrymen 

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with either the Churchillian or the Orwellian comments you refer to, did they not explain their rationale behind their thinking?

When I referred to English nationalism over many years I was really thinking of the last 20-30 years, i.e. a period of which I have personal experience rather than your longer historical perspective.

For myself I would say that 'hate' is far too strong  a word and that I haven't always believed anything of the sort. But what I will say is that my attitude towards my country (and indeed other countries) has changed very significantly over the last 40 years and has switched from being proud to be British as a young man to now being pretty ashamed to be British, or more accurately English. I don't think the concept of Britishness really exists anymore, the vast majority of the UK seem to regard themselves as English, Welsh, Irish or Scots rather than British - I'm afraid that's another one for the history books.

 

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with either the Churchillian or the Orwellian comments you refer to, did they not explain their rationale behind their thinking?

When I referred to English nationalism over many years I was really thinking of the last 20-30 years, i.e. a period of which I have personal experience rather than your longer historical perspective.

For myself I would say that 'hate' is far too strong  a word and that I haven't always believed anything of the sort. But what I will say is that my attitude towards my country (and indeed other countries) has changed very significantly over the last 40 years and has switched from being proud to be British as a young man to now being pretty ashamed to be British, or more accurately English. I don't think the concept of Britishness really exists anymore, the vast majority of the UK seem to regard themselves as English, Welsh, Irish or Scots rather than British - I'm afraid that's another one for the history books.

 

“In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. 
They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the 
general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident 
thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always 
felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman 
and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping 
away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes 
squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always 
anti-British.”

The essay from Orwell, whilst the reference to the Soviets in Moscow is now out of date, the rest is still very much valid. I’ve never understood the disdain held for the English. We’re one of the most tolerant nations in the world, the far right here are largely non existent, yet intellectuals constantly denounce the working classes in particular as racists. They look to the continent longingly, despite Le Pen in France, Wilders in Holland, Salvini in Italy, Vox in Spain and the AfD in Germany enjoying much more widespread support amongst the general populations. They denounce the British Empire, but never hold the same anger towards the French or Spanish. 

It seems to be this backdrop as to why many feel the anger towards those who voted to leave the EU, as those that are most vocal about remaining fit in with Orwell’s description. They’ve always preferred Europe to their fellow countrymen and women, and feel that the vote is moving the UK further away from them.

Churchills speech regarded England being a forgotten, forbidden word, but is part of a longer speech that isn’t as relevant to the point I’m trying to make 

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Yeah right. 

I will concede that the constant barrage of "you have to love gays, you have to love immigrants, you have to understand that no program is ever good enough to protect the environment, animal welfare" etc has worn on people to the extent that is has become - time out! When has anyone ever worried about me? About us? 

It's a media and political disease that spread with too many channels, and too little talent looking for 5 minutes of fame, and a bunch of media savvy marketing dude and dudettes exploiting every outlet to have a good old whine. 

But that's different to what Orwell was saying back in the 30's. 

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1 hour ago, Surfer said:

Yeah right. 

I will concede that the constant barrage of "you have to love gays, you have to love immigrants, you have to understand that no program is ever good enough to protect the environment, animal welfare" etc has worn on people to the extent that is has become - time out! When has anyone ever worried about me? About us? 

It's a media and political disease that spread with too many channels, and too little talent looking for 5 minutes of fame, and a bunch of media savvy marketing dude and dudettes exploiting every outlet to have a good old whine. 

But that's different to what Orwell was saying back in the 30's. 

You’re referring to the identity politics, which while I admit is a problem, and has unfortunately infected the Labour Party due to the demographic make up of the Momentum group currently pulling the strings there, it’s a different point to the one I was referring to. My point is the way the largely middle class look up to Europe in particular, and down on their fellow countrymen and women, Emily Thornberry’s now infamous tweet with the white van and St George’s Cross being a prime example.

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That has absolutely nothing to do with our membership of the EU. That is just being snobbish. You and your tory friends have been looking down on the lower paid members of society, the unskilled as Patel classed them. Look where that has got us. 

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41 minutes ago, Herman said:

That has absolutely nothing to do with our membership of the EU. That is just being snobbish. You and your tory friends have been looking down on the lower paid members of society, the unskilled as Patel classed them. Look where that has got us. 

I think it is relevant, as it can explain the vitriol towards the largely working class Leave voters from the largely middle class Remain voters. As for being a snob, I’m not the one who told people they didn’t know what they were voting for. I’m not the one who spent the best part of 4 years trying to overrule their vote. I’m not the one that has dismissed their concerns regarding immigration numbers, and the competition it created for their jobs as racism. It’s hard to look down on a group I consider myself part of. 

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It's called democracy. If people think some have made a stupid decision they are allowed to voice their concerns. 

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15 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's called democracy. If people think some have made a stupid decision they are allowed to voice their concerns. 

They’re also supposed to practice losers consent, a vital part of democracy, and there was very little of that. They tried every trick in the book to frustrate, delay and cancel the vote, it wasn’t until the last election they finally gave up 

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21 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

They’re also supposed to practice losers consent, a vital part of democracy, and there was very little of that. They tried every trick in the book to frustrate, delay and cancel the vote, it wasn’t until the last election they finally gave up 

This is a basic Brexiteer misunderstanding. Functioning democracies have checks and balances to prevent absolute power and quickly remedy stupid decisions. It means that loser's consent must be earned rather than being a right. At no time did anyone suggest just cancelling the vote, rather than challenging  the lack of a Brexit plan. In a functioning democracy this lack of a plan needed to be held to account and worked through the democratic process. We have left now and the Remainers haven't given up but have moved on to future debates. It is the Brexiteers that remain in a circle of repeating the same old arguments. Why, because there is still no plan for the future relationship based on the political decalration the government agreed. How are the talks going? Will there be a new FTA by December 31st or will we be extending?

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11 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

“In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. 
They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the 
general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident 
thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always 
felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman 
and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping 
away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes 
squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always 
anti-British.”

The essay from Orwell, whilst the reference to the Soviets in Moscow is now out of date, the rest is still very much valid. I’ve never understood the disdain held for the English. We’re one of the most tolerant nations in the world, the far right here are largely non existent, yet intellectuals constantly denounce the working classes in particular as racists. They look to the continent longingly, despite Le Pen in France, Wilders in Holland, Salvini in Italy, Vox in Spain and the AfD in Germany enjoying much more widespread support amongst the general populations. They denounce the British Empire, but never hold the same anger towards the French or Spanish. 

It seems to be this backdrop as to why many feel the anger towards those who voted to leave the EU, as those that are most vocal about remaining fit in with Orwell’s description. They’ve always preferred Europe to their fellow countrymen and women, and feel that the vote is moving the UK further away from them.

Churchills speech regarded England being a forgotten, forbidden word, but is part of a longer speech that isn’t as relevant to the point I’m trying to make 

'National characteristics are not easy to pin down, and when pinned down they often turn out to be trivialities or seem to have no connection with one another. Spaniards are cruel to animals, Italians can do nothing without making a deafening noise, the Chinese are addicted to gambling. Obviously such things don’t matter in themselves. Nevertheless, nothing is causeless, and even the fact that Englishmen have bad teeth can tell something about the realities of English life.

'Here are a couple of generalizations about England that would be accepted by almost all observers. One is that the English are not gifted artistically. They are not as musical as the Germans or Italians, painting and sculpture have never flourished in England as they have in France.

'Another is that, as Europeans go, the English are not intellectual. They have a horror of abstract thought, they feel no need for any philosophy or systematic “world-view”. Nor is this because they are “practical”, as they are so fond of claiming for themselves.

'One has only to look at their methods of town-planning and water-supply, their obstinate clinging to everything that is out of date and a nuisance, a spelling system that defies analysis, and a system of weights and measures that is intelligible only to the compilers of arithmetic books, to see how little they care about mere efficiency.'

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At at time like this perhaps it is worth reflecting on the views of leading Brexiteers like Farage, Hannan and Gove who have advocated abolishing the NHS in the past. Just to put their judgement into perspective really.

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2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

 

'Here are a couple of generalizations about England that would be accepted by almost all observers. One is that the English are not gifted artistically. They are not as musical as the Germans or Italians, painting and sculpture have never flourished in England as they have in France.

 

No surprise you left Literature and poetry out of it.😉

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Germans musical?  Since Beethoven they've given us nothing but the Oompah Band

Unless you consider fascist old Wagner as musical. 

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24 minutes ago, ricardo said:

No surprise you left Literature and poetry out of it.😉

I didn't leave anything out, ricardo. That would have been fake-news doctoring of the quote.🤓

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A great shame that Shakespeare couldn't carry a tune in a bucket and I never liked that shade of Magnolia he painted behind the stage at the Globe theatre.

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21 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

And I didn't believe all the profits of doom !

😀 There are no profits of doom, that is kind of the point 🤣

"The term “Profit” is usually understood to mean the difference between the total sale-proceeds obtained by a businessman and his total expenses of production. It is the surplus that remains in the hands of the businessman after paying rent, wages, interest on borrowed capital etc."

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11 minutes ago, ricardo said:

image.png.b33b67aeed61731f3cd76b2fed951a78.pngAnyone else remember Colin Prophett

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Prophett

I can't remember if we made a profit on Prophett.

Me neither but I remember him as a pretty decent player and was very surprised when I looked him up just now to see that he only played 35 times for us - obviously my memory is not what it was, I thought it was a lot more than that.

Edited by Creative Midfielder

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8 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Me neither but I remember him as a pretty decent player and was very surprised when I looked him up just now to see that he only played 35 times for us - obviously my memory is not what it was, I thought it was a lot more than that.

Without looking at the figures I would also have guessed it was more than that.

signed May 73 for 40k

left Oct 74  for 20k

So I don't have to be a prophet to say we made no profit from Prophett😀

Edited by ricardo
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11 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

When you are already up to your eyes in debt?

Well you got the money, so who says you are going to pay it back? Just default. Trump does. 

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10 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

'National characteristics are not easy to pin down, and when pinned down they often turn out to be trivialities or seem to have no connection with one another. Spaniards are cruel to animals, Italians can do nothing without making a deafening noise, the Chinese are addicted to gambling. Obviously such things don’t matter in themselves. Nevertheless, nothing is causeless, and even the fact that Englishmen have bad teeth can tell something about the realities of English life.

'Here are a couple of generalizations about England that would be accepted by almost all observers. One is that the English are not gifted artistically. They are not as musical as the Germans or Italians, painting and sculpture have never flourished in England as they have in France.

'Another is that, as Europeans go, the English are not intellectual. They have a horror of abstract thought, they feel no need for any philosophy or systematic “world-view”. Nor is this because they are “practical”, as they are so fond of claiming for themselves.

'One has only to look at their methods of town-planning and water-supply, their obstinate clinging to everything that is out of date and a nuisance, a spelling system that defies analysis, and a system of weights and measures that is intelligible only to the compilers of arithmetic books, to see how little they care about mere efficiency.'

Your post has proved my point though how you look to up to Europe but down on your homeland. You say how the Germans are more musical, but what music has come out of Germany since the days of Beethoven? UK bands and the music scene has been popular worldwide for the last 60 years but it’s simply ignored.

I can’t argue with art as it’s not a subject I’m familiar with but a walk round any of our major cities and you’ll see some fantastic architecture which to me is artistic in its way. 

You handily leave out literature, which has been a strength for centuries, and the numerous inventions as a country since the industrial revolution. We may be fans of tradition but so is every country, and the spelling may be all over the place but that’s because English is a mash up of many languages. Is it any more daft than the French having masculine and feminine inanimate objects? 

We’ve as much to be proud of as any nation in Europe, yet people, especially those on the middle class left, simply choose not to see it

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7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Germans musical?  Since Beethoven they've given us nothing but the Oompah Band

Unless you consider fascist old Wagner as musical. 

It's very odd. I suppose Hindemith could be considered significant, but nothing like other European composers. Even we produced Vaughan Williams, Holst, Britten, Tippet, Walton ...

And the 'pop' music is simply execrable. I wonder why Euro-pop is uniformly naff?

 

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