The Positive Brexit Thread

[Yellow and Green 334]

7 hours ago, Herman said:

Does it not frustrate you that, after all this time, you are still having to explain to numerous brexiters the absolute bloody basics of the EU and membership and everything that it entails?  Or through your job you are well trained enough to deal with people that struggle?

Apparently 'What is the EU?' and 'What is Brexit?' were commonly typed into Google by British people after the election.

Says it all really.

https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/06/24/480949383/britains-google-searches-for-what-is-the-eu-spike-after-brexit-vote

[Herman 9,717]

I found London's  "Move to Gibraltar" spike a mixture of amusing and baffling.😀

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

50 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Its not by chance that societies throughout the world appreciate the wisdom that comes with age.

The majority of people who claim that to be true are themselves old. Odd that. The reality is that the supposed reason older people give for getting more conservative, that experience has taught them that is the correct path to follow for all, is frequently a smoke screen for something less admirable. Namely rampant self-interest.

Having played at radicalism in their youth, or even just pretended to do so, they now trumpet right-wing policies not because they are good for the public as a whole but because in their gated cul-de-sac of dreams* they shamelessly want what is best for themselves and sod the rest.

At a tangent, the Daily Mail's attacks on the BBC for trying to get back money it is owed would be hilarious if they were not so serious. People the Mail would otherwise demonise as feckless scroungers ripping off the state are being treated as heartrending martyrs standing up to tyranny.

*Credit to Mary Chapin Carpenter for this phrase, which is not meant to be necessarily taken literally in all the cases of posters here (some of these culs-de-sac of theirs may not be gated) who have followed this predictable path from egalitarianism and selflessness but it will stand symbolically.

[Van wink 2,994]

8 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

The majority of people who claim that to be true are themselves old. Odd that. The reality is that the supposed reason older people give for getting more conservative, that experience has taught them that is the correct path to follow for all, is frequently a smoke screen for something less admirable. Namely rampant self-interest.

Having played at radicalism in their youth, or even just pretended to do so, they now trumpet right-wing policies not because they are good for the public as a whole but because in their gated cul-de-sac of dreams* they shamelessly want what is best for themselves and sod the rest.

At a tangent, the Daily Mail's attacks on the BBC for trying to get back money it is owed would be hilarious if they were not so serious. People the Mail would otherwise demonise as feckless scroungers ripping off the state are being treated as heartrending martyrs standing up to tyranny.

*Credit to Mary Chapin Carpenter for this phrase, which is not meant to be necessarily taken literally in all the cases of posters here (some of these culs-de-sac of theirs may not be gated) who have followed this predictable path from egalitarianism and selflessness but it will stand symbolically.

A very bigoted view, as some might have said.

 

[T 190]

I’d agree with that Purple apart from the fact that they are not even acting in their own interests given that according to the Governments  own analysis a free trade deal will cost the uk 1000 GBP per household. In any other organisation knowingly going  ahead with that would be considered gross negligence and incompetence. 
 

But forgive them as the privileged ruling classes have deliberately failed to give the masses a decent education in basic economics business history and geography so that they can look after their own and fool the masses. It is staggering that the masses allow themselves to be fooled. But this is just a sad episode in the UK history. Globalisation is inevitable and there is nothing they can do about that unless they stop buying foreign goods and services and stop buying goods and services from cheap immigrants 

[SwindonCanary 455]

5 hours ago, SHRIMPER said:

SWINDO the thickest FVCKWIT on the board. Oh and I nearly forgot. He is an utter LIAR also.

YOU REMAINERS CAN CALL ME ALL THE NAMES UNDER THE SUN BECAUSE WE ARE LEAVING !  MOST FOR THOSE VOTERS THINK THE SAME WAY AS MYSELF -YOU LOT ARE IN THE MINORITY 

Edited December 22, 2019 by SwindonCanary

[Herman 9,717]

We're not. 52% of the country voted for Remain/Referendum parties. Due to how our elections work the majority is having to do something the minority want. A bit like the US.

[Hairy Canary 668]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

Brexit is an anomaly then?!

It's idealistic, radical and high risk but supported in the majority by older right wingers.

I take your point but I think Brexit is intrinsically seen as conservative by many in that it has been associated with stopping the change that has occurred since the EU began moving toward deeper integration. By definition that is seen as far more radical, idealistic and high risk.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Hairy Canary

[Herman 9,717]

Not that I agree with the sentiments, that is a fair and understandable point.

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

3 hours ago, Van wink said:

Its not by chance that societies throughout the world appreciate the wisdom that comes with age.

There are few wiser than the wonderful David Starkey, and one could hardly accuse him of operating out of self-interest. Here he analyses Labour's defeat, interesting as he is himself a northerner, and what the Conservatives need to do to stay in power for generations to com. Starkey at his best.

 

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

3 hours ago, Yellow and Green said:

Apparently 'What is the EU?' and 'What is Brexit?' were commonly typed into Google by British people after the election.

Says it all really.

https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/06/24/480949383/britains-google-searches-for-what-is-the-eu-spike-after-brexit-vote

Massive fail. That article is dated 24 June 2016 and relates to searches made after the referendum, not the 2019 general election.

Go back to sleep

[Herman 9,717]

Brexiters. Be more Hairy, less Rocky.

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

2 hours ago, T said:

I’d agree with that Purple apart from the fact that they are not even acting in their own interests given that according to the Governments  own analysis a free trade deal will cost the uk 1000 GBP per household. In any other organisation knowingly going  ahead with that would be considered gross negligence and incompetence. 
 

But forgive them as the privileged ruling classes have deliberately failed to give the masses a decent education in basic economics business history and geography so that they can look after their own and fool the masses. It is staggering that the masses allow themselves to be fooled. But this is just a sad episode in the UK history. Globalisation is inevitable and there is nothing they can do about that unless they stop buying foreign goods and services and stop buying goods and services from cheap immigrants 

Well Purple is as mixed up as you are, because VW very clearly wrote

Its not by chance that societies throughout the world appreciate the wisdom that comes with age.

And Purple conflated that remark on wisdom with a personal take on 'conservatism'.

The majority of people who claim that to be true are themselves old. Odd that. The reality is that the supposed reason older people give for getting more conservative, 

Now your agreeing with Purple suggests you too are confusing the concept of wisdom with the concept of conservatism, so it is really not all that surprising that you are still beating that same old drum about us thick people not knowing what we were voting for. Well shame on you that three and a half years later that you've not learned a single thing about Brexit, nor why we voted to leave.

And don't bother asking now, that ship has now sailed. We don't offer explanations any more because we've done with you andyour prattling nonsense. I do wish you every success in what ever foreign country you now find yourself.

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

Wisdom on any subject does not come with age, it comes with experience.

Age does correlate with experience but only if the experience is relevant to the wisdom so claimed.

Education; intelligence and a breadth of experiences in different environments are a much better guide to wisdom than age alone. 

All that happens with age us that people tend to become more conservative, more nostalgic and fear change. "It was better in my day" and similar comments are as old as the hills and typical of every generation of elderly that when you think about demonstrates a lack wisdom else they would realise it wasnt true! We all remember the best bits of our past and forget the slog. That's wisdom!

Edited December 22, 2019 by Yellow Fever
There's no fool like an old fool...

[Van wink 2,994]

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

3 hours ago, T said:

I’d agree with that Purple apart from the fact that they are not even acting in their own interests given that according to the Governments  own analysis a free trade deal will cost the uk 1000 GBP per household. In any other organisation knowingly going  ahead with that would be considered gross negligence and incompetence. 
 

But forgive them as the privileged ruling classes have deliberately failed to give the masses a decent education in basic economics business history and geography so that they can look after their own and fool the masses. It is staggering that the masses allow themselves to be fooled. But this is just a sad episode in the UK history. Globalisation is inevitable and there is nothing they can do about that unless they stop buying foreign goods and services and stop buying goods and services from cheap immigrants 

I was talking about the switch from a real or pretend egalitarianism or altruism to selfishness in general terms rather than specifically about Brexit.

But as for Brexit, with a very few exceptions, the vast majority of those who voted for it will be financially worse off in at least in the medium-term (say five to 10 years) and probably beyond that. And many of those who voted for Brexit will be among the worst-hit.

And the irony (actually 'sorrow' would be a better word) is that the more Brexit is tailored to complying with the main motivating factor behind that Leave vote (as seems Johnson's intention), namely to get completely out from under EU rules and regulations, the worse economically it will be for those voters who wanted that.

[T 190]

Im indeed happy to have another nationality especially as the British have made themselves a laughing stock. 
 

i would have thought the brexiteers would also be happy at costing households 1000GBP and risking half a million jobs but they seem as miserable bitter and twisted as ever so one wonders as ever really what is the point of Brexit in practice  

as for brexiteers being simple enough to believe brexit is done it seems at least some really are simple enough to fall for that slogan   We are still waiting for brexiteers to come up with a plan  No excuses    Let us hope it is a good one but I fear Boris will find lying only gets you so far in the real world  

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/22/britains-position-brexit-trade-talks-far-stronger-gloomsters/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

[kick it off 1,948]

5 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/22/britains-position-brexit-trade-talks-far-stronger-gloomsters/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-telegraph/

The article is paywalled but I suspect it's the usual opinion based, fact-light **** you normally fall hook line and sinker for.

[Van wink 2,994]

Merry Christmas by the way 😀

[ron obvious 1,501]

10 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Wisdom on any subject does not come with age, it comes with experience.

Age does correlate with experience but only if the experience is relevant to the wisdom so claimed.

Education; intelligence and a breadth of experiences in different environments are a much better guide to wisdom than age alone. 

All that happens with age us that people tend to become more conservative, more nostalgic and fear change. "It was better in my day" and similar comments are as old as the hills and typical of every generation of elderly that when you think about demonstrates a lack wisdom else they would realise it wasnt true! We all remember the best bits of our past and forget the slog. That's wisdom!

Your argument is basically self-contradictory. By definition experience can only come with time. While it's true you can become old without experiencing different environments, without experiencing people with different outlooks, the probability of such experiences increases with time. How you react to these depends on your own personal character, which is something you are born with, although it is modified by your interaction with the world - susceptibility to which itself depends on your innate character.

I've worked in about 20 different firms & with about 20 different nationalities. That was in the electronics industry. I've also had a building firm, traded as an antiques dealer, & been a teacher (albeit only for a year or so). I like to read widely, to read books by authors with different world views, often ones challenging my own or from societies I have no experience of. I'm currently reading Midnight's Children, for example.

I've worked with a lot of people. Some incredibly bright, some not so much. I've not managed to find any useful pre-existing indicator of what these people are like - their age, ethnicity, academic ability, even gender - until I've met them. I've met many young people with very fixed (& usually simplistic) views of the world & many old people who realise the world is an unbelievably complex place & to be prescriptive is to be mistaken.

Thus I refute your final paragraph. It's not my experience. I remember really sh!t bits in my past & the world as I saw it as well as good bits. And as for fearing change!!!  Surely that's what drives many young remainers ??!!

 

 

 

 

[ron obvious 1,501]

2 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Merry Christmas by the way 😀

I'd almost forgotten that one.

'kin 'ell how gorgeously sexy is she. What a difference to the annoying little brat she was in Neighbours. Time for a lie down in a darkened room ...

[Van wink 2,994]

1 minute ago, ron obvious said:

I'd almost forgotten that one.

'kin 'ell how gorgeously sexy is she. What a difference to the annoying little brat she was in Neighbours. Time for a lie down in a darkened room ...

Odd how the good stuff always gets banned 😀

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Your argument is basically self-contradictory. By definition experience can only come with time. While it's true you can become old without experiencing different environments, without experiencing people with different outlooks, the probability of such experiences increases with time. How you react to these depends on your own personal character, which is something you are born with, although it is modified by your interaction with the world - susceptibility to which itself depends on your innate character.

I've worked in about 20 different firms & with about 20 different nationalities. That was in the electronics industry. I've also had a building firm, traded as an antiques dealer, & been a teacher (albeit only for a year or so). I like to read widely, to read books by authors with different world views, often ones challenging my own or from societies I have no experience of. I'm currently reading Midnight's Children, for example.

I've worked with a lot of people. Some incredibly bright, some not so much. I've not managed to find any useful pre-existing indicator of what these people are like - their age, ethnicity, academic ability, even gender - until I've met them. I've met many young people with very fixed (& usually simplistic) views of the world & many old people who realise the world is an unbelievably complex place & to be prescriptive is to be mistaken.

Thus I refute your final paragraph. It's not my experience. I remember really sh!t bits in my past & the world as I saw it as well as good bits. And as for fearing change!!!  Surely that's what drives many young remainers ??!!

 

 

 

 

Ron - There is nothing contentious in my comment - indeed much of it is well supported by research. Of course we can all find anecdotal evidence to confound the general trends identified. Wisdom is not the prerogative of the elderly, neither is rash impetuous behaviour the prerogative of the young. 

Anybody who claims it is clearly lacks the very wisdom or indeed experience they claim.

As to Brexit - almost by definition it was not based on a call to  'wisdom' - i.e. rational debate on the facts - Gove's phrases like 'we have had enough of Experts' or ignoring the calls of the previous 4 PMs (all of which have first hand experience of the actuality of the EU not myths) or come to that large business (the car industry, Airbus and so on) proves that Brexit was call not to wisdom but to emotion, nostalgia and yes fear of change (80M Turks anybody?). A romantic view of 'independence'. That and without a doubt many of the elderly look back to a world they understood - not the fast moving integrated supply chain world of the future with a dominant China and India. I've even seen on here comments as to re-linking with the the 'Commonwealth' (that's 96% by population India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, African countries etc - not Oz, NZ, Canada and so on). 1950's thinking. 

I will leave with a passing thought. The future of many British jobs (and those in services and towns that support them) as we separate from the EU is now being decided quite dispassionately in the board rooms of many multinationals - in Japan and India, USA and China. They don't give a fig for the UK's view of itself - you can't be the European 'hub' for projects, service and repair if your're outside the single market. No CFO will put up with the extra paperwork and costs required. Given away control entirely!

I suspect some uncomfortable experiences will lead to some new wisdom!  

[ron obvious 1,501]

9 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Ron - There is nothing contentious in my comment - indeed much of it is well supported by research. Of course we can all find anecdotal evidence to confound the general trends identified. Wisdom is not the prerogative of the elderly, neither is rash impetuous behaviour the prerogative of the young. 

Anybody who claims it is clearly lacks the very wisdom or indeed experience they claim.

As to Brexit - almost by definition it was not based on a call to  'wisdom' - i.e. rational debate on the facts - Gove's phrases like 'we have had enough of Experts' or ignoring the calls of the previous 4 PMs (all of which have first hand experience of the actuality of the EU not myths) or come to that large business (the car industry, Airbus and so on) proves that Brexit was call not to wisdom but to emotion, nostalgia and yes fear of change (80M Turks anybody?). A romantic view of 'independence'. That and without a doubt many of the elderly look back to a world they understood - not the fast moving integrated supply chain world of the future with a dominant China and India. I've even seen on here comments as to re-linking with the the 'Commonwealth' (that's 96% by population India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, African countries etc - not Oz, NZ, Canada and so on). 1950's thinking. 

I will leave with a passing thought. The future of many British jobs (and those in services and towns that support them) as we separate from the EU is now being decided quite dispassionately in the board rooms of many multinationals - in Japan and India, USA and China. They don't give a fig for the UK's view of itself - you can't be the European 'hub' for projects, service and repair if your're outside the single market. No CFO will put up with the extra paperwork and costs required. Given away control entirely!

I suspect some uncomfortable experiences will lead to some new wisdom!  

I did not say that. I said that the likelihood of acquiring greater experience increases with age. Would you care to refute that?

If you only listen to those who support your own views then you will never acquire wisdom. I've known many people who simply will not accept any views except their own, & they have been distributed uniformly across any classification you could make. In fact the only class you could say they belonged to would be the class of those who refuse to accept any views except their own.

As for 'experts', as I & others have pointed out you judge an expert by results. There is no other sensible way to judge them: would you employ a mechanic who keeps misdiagnosing your car's problems? A surgeon whose patients keep dying despite assurances they'll survive? A plumber whose joints always leak? A dentist who pulls the wrong teeth? Economists (certainly those who make confident predictions about the future) fail that basic test. In fact they're about as 'expert' as the average football pundit on here.

I don't doubt they're intelligent people who used increasingly sophisticated techniques to model the global economy, but their success rate thus far is on a par with long term weather forecasting & as good as someone who's spent a lifetime studying tea leaves.

One of the biggest drivers of economics is technological change - how on earth do you predict that? As for emotion, whether you like it or not it is one of the main drivers of human behaviour & impossible to quantify in any economic model; if you don't understand that I don't know what you're doing here, on a football forum for god's sake!

Perhaps one of the main economic drivers for change is environmental awareness - care to predict how that's going to pan out in economic terms? What % chance would you give it of being correct?

You continue to make assertions dressed up as 'fact'. You'r contempt for anyone who disagrees with you shines through, particularly if you regard them as 'elderly'. The future of most British jobs will I suspect lie far more within our own hands than elsewhere; I cannot prove that, just as you cannot prove the opposite.

We're leaving the EU & I think most rational people will roll their sleeves up & get on with it rather than continually going on about how stupid, racist & xenophobic everyone was who voted to leave the EU. I do not think you're among that number however.

 

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

5 hours ago, kick it off said:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-telegraph/

The article is paywalled but I suspect it's the usual opinion based, fact-light **** you normally fall hook line and sinker for.

Do you find it compulsory to reply to everything I post ?

[kick it off 1,948]

21 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Do you find it compulsory to reply to everything I post ?

Yes, because I don’t like to let people post unchecked biased ****. Start posting factual information and I’ll stop correcting it

[TCCANARY 263]

"Downing Street has said football authorities need to do more to tackle racism"

Does that mean the Prime Minister will be banned from attending football matches?

 

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

6 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/22/britains-position-brexit-trade-talks-far-stronger-gloomsters/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

I'm always happy to oblige you, Swindon.

Many have argued that trade negotiations with the EU will drag on for years, condemning businesses to an extended period of the very uncertainty that has so bedevilled their planning and reduced their investment. Yet Mr Johnson’s move last week to enshrine the date of the end of the transition period in law has cut through this argument. Unless you believe that this law will be overturned, then we will definitely leave the EU’s Customs Union and Single Market by the end of next year. The only remaining uncertainty is whether we leave with a trade deal or instead trade with the EU under World Trade Organisation terms.

The latter has been described as a “no-deal” departure from the EU. These two words have acquired talismanic importance. “No-deal” is widely regarded as “crashing out”. The “cliff-edge” is apparently back in business.

If nothing else, you have to hand it to the wordsmiths in the Remainer camp. For “no-deal” was originally used to describe the situation where we left the EU without any sort of agreement on anything. Even Mrs May’s ill-fated “deal” did not include a trade agreement. That was left to be negotiated later.

The truth is that, given that Mr Johnson has struck a departure deal with the EU and that it will be enacted by Parliament, there is no way that the UK will be leaving “without a deal” in the original meaning of the expression. And there have been lots of mini-agreements on the likes of aircraft landing rights.

Of course, we could still leave without a trade deal. Indeed, the usual gloomsters argue that getting a trade agreement with the EU by the end of next year is impossible. This is defeatist nonsense. It is eminently feasible given the political will. Unlike in most trade negotiations, in this case both partners begin from a situation of zero trade barriers and regulatory alignment. Moreover, there is the recent deal with Canada to use as a template. Nor is it absolutely necessary to have every aspect of our future relationship with the EU covered in a single deal. It might well be possible to secure an agreement by the end of next year on some aspects while continuing negotiations on others.

Regulation is going to be the sticking point. Supposedly, the European Commission wants to insist that the UK accepts pretty much full regulatory alignment with the EU and only in return for this will it concede full access to its markets, including in financial services. It would be madness for the UK to agree to any such thing.

The essential economic case for Brexit has still not sunk in among the commentariat. To listen to Remainers bemoaning our looming fate outside the EU, you would think that the union is a zone of stonking economic success. But it isn’t. It is mired in comparative economic failure. And the regulatory regime is one of the factors responsible. What’s more, the EU’s shortcomings are likely to intensify as it moves on to yet closer integration. Even if it means leaving without a trade deal, this is a bloc whose regulatory regime we should be itching to detach ourselves from, not aligning ourselves with.

Over the coming year, the Johnson government will be simultaneously trying to do trade deals with other countries, in particular the US. If it secures such deals but does not reach a trade agreement on tariff-free trade with the EU, then EU producers will suffer massive price competition in the UK market. While the price of goods imported into the UK from the rest of the world will fall, as tariffs on these goods are cut, the price of EU-produced goods imported into the UK will rise as tariffs are imposed. The consequence is that Continental producers of everything from cars to cheeses would be hit very hard. Perceiving this threat ahead of them, they are going to be putting huge pressure on their governments to do a deal with the UK.

All along, Remainers have under-estimated the strength of the Brexit case. Their thinking has been dominated by a perception of British weakness. In reality, the only weak thing about Britain’s position has been her government. Now the election result has transformed the political situation.

Remainers have undergone several shocks over the last few years, starting with the Brexit vote in 2016. I believe that they are soon going to experience another one. The Johnson government is going to succeed in doing trade deals with the EU and several other countries, and without preserving close regulatory alignment with the EU. And, what’s more, the UK economy is going to do exceedingly well. Happy Christmas.

Roger Bootle is chairman of Capital Economics. His latest book, The AI Economy – Work, Wealth and Welfare in the Robot Age, has recently been published by Nicholas Brealey.

[SHRIMPER 328]

37 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Do you find it compulsory to reply to everything I post ?

As you SWINDO the FVCKWIT are a proven LIAR.  KIO has every right to fact check you. I do not check you as I know everything you post is coming from the fingertips of a compusory LIAR.