The Positive Brexit Thread

[canarydan23 4,060]

8 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Then there's space travel: there's a space launch facility planned for somewhere in the north of Scotland I believe? fantastic!

There is indeed. I went to a brilliant session with my eldest two during Norwich Science Festival put on by Raptor Aerospace, a company operating out of Coltishall Airfield. They create model rockets for research, training and simulation purposes. The session involved the kids creating their own air-propelled rockets, altering the fins to try and make it land as close to the centre of a moon that was laid on the floor about 10 metres away, but before the activity started they gave a brief, 10-15 minute intro about what they do. I'd never heard of them but it was a fascinating little talk and the kids enjoyed the activity. Nice to know that Norfolk is contributing in its own little way to the space sector.

[ron obvious 1,501]

PS what's happened to Len? I miss Len.

 

[Herman 9,717]

3 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

PS what's happened to Len? I miss Len.

 

David Icke took away his Internet allowance. 

[Mr Angry 1,545]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

From Mindbomb? 

Infected-great album 👍

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Got anyone in mind?

Well the executive had said is must be a woman so I would hazard there would be seven contenders.

I think three, Butler, Abbott and Long-Bailey are probably too tied to Corbyn but Momentum might well get the voters out for any one of them. That would be a backward step for the country as it would hand a dynasty to the Tories.

Jess Phillips, Angela Rayner and Yvette Cooper would be the centrist choices.

And of course there is Thornberry. She acts like another Iron Maiden so may well have public appeal but they don't elect the leader.

Rayner's star probably shines the brightest.

Edited November 28, 2019 by keelansgrandad

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Then there's space travel: there's a space launch facility planned for somewhere in the north of Scotland I believe? fantastic!

At the moment, Newquay is the favourite for a space port. But it depends on Cornwall Council adding over £10M to the development fund. There is a great deal of opposition to CC funding it as they see Richard Branson as wealthier than the council. And there has been different numbers posted about follow on jobs after the initial construction.

And as some places don't even have a bus service then they see space travel as totally unimportant to them. And when we finally leave the EU, Cornwall will suffer badly as we receive the greatest amount of EU funding per head of population. Most progress with roads and infrastructure has been through EU money and it will just halt.

At sometime, the world has to embrace space exploration but I am unconvinced that we should have three separate  space endeavours: military, commercial as well as scientific.

[BigFish 1,986]

2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

I think food banks will become the norm (at least until the environment collapses, whether through human agency or otherwise) in the same way that people are no longer ashamed & humiliated to receive unemployment benefit.

The employment problem transcends politics; it's a problem generated by technology.

There are not enough 'proper' jobs (ones you would pay someone else to do) to go round. Marx was right, but for reasons he couldn't foresee. I saw it first hand in the electronics industry, where my level of job was disappearing rapidly due to automation. In the end all that's needed is a few very clever people & some clever machines that they designed.

The net result is that the wealth lies in the hands of very few (the owners of the machines - not the very clever people) who supply the general population. They have been taken out of the work process. Their only function is to consume the goods, therefore there is no utility in their starving, but that's about all.

I suspect western society (certainly the UK) will regard the post war period to have been something of a golden age; unionisation obtained decent wages for people because they were essential to production. Most of us are now becoming redundant.

Blimey Ron, good post

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I suspect western society (certainly the UK) will regard the post war period to have been something of a golden age; unionisation obtained decent wages for people because they were essential to production. Most of us are now becoming redundant.

I was the National Secretary of the NZ Printing Union while I lived there. And its a fact that the more successful we were with negotiations, and Printing was a well rewarded industry, the more Tories (it was called the National Party in NZ) we created.

And another thing. I have never heard anyone banging on about saving the Printing Industry. Nobody has ever asked what wealth it creates or employment it used to bring. And now it has been decimated by technology. And to be honest, I think the publishing of the written word is far more important than eating fish.

Yet all we hear about is the fishing industry, that employs 12K people and has less than a billion turnover.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

PS what's happened to Len? I miss Len.

 

Odd that he has disappeared at the same time as Billy 🤣

[BigFish 1,986]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Yet all we hear about is the fishing industry, that employs 12K people and has less than a billion turnover.

Yes, very strange that fishing become so totemic. Particularly, as the UK consumption of fish caught in UK waters is so low. For me it is down to the romantic nostalgia that comes with Brexit, although people can't be bothered to eat the fish caught and the fisherman fished stocks to near extinction they will be sad to see the industry go, as it will almost inevitably go whether we Leave or Remain.

[ricardo 7,347]

37 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I suspect western society (certainly the UK) will regard the post war period to have been something of a golden age; unionisation obtained decent wages for people because they were essential to production. Most of us are now becoming redundant.

I was the National Secretary of the NZ Printing Union while I lived there. And its a fact that the more successful we were with negotiations, and Printing was a well rewarded industry, the more Tories (it was called the National Party in NZ) we created.

And another thing. I have never heard anyone banging on about saving the Printing Industry. Nobody has ever asked what wealth it creates or employment it used to bring. And now it has been decimated by technology. And to be honest, I think the publishing of the written word is far more important than eating fish.

Yet all we hear about is the fishing industry, that employs 12K people and has less than a billion turnover.

Printing as you and I knew it is long gone, just like the old metal bashing industries and mining in the the 1970's. The technology of today has made many of the old skills redundant, especially in the print industry. I am sure you can recall the demise of Letterpress that led to the end for Compositers and then later computer to plate saw the final chop for film comps. The Wapping riots and strikes were never going to hold back the march of progress, even the Unions realised this in the end. Nothing stays the same forever KG.

Edited November 28, 2019 by ricardo

[Herman 9,717]

4 hours ago, ricardo said:

If Ma Beckett hadn't nominated Corbyn things might have looked entirely different.

It's an election for who do you dislike the least, the beardy socialist or the cowardly fascist. 

[ron obvious 1,501]

https://unherd.com/2019/11/labour-is-institutionally-anti-semitic/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

 

Yet Boris Johnson, or any rogue Tory MP or member, can and do say racist or borderline racist things, but does the party with a Muslim-origin Chancellor really discriminate against Muslims institutionally? Does it then double down and deny its racism?

This Muslim believes not, and I have never voted Tory in my life, and will not do so this time either. There are problems in the Conservative Party, yes. I disagree with them, yes. But they are yet to meet the test of being institutionally anti-Muslim.

The comparison of Tory anti-Muslim bigotry would only be appropriate if Boris Johnson had called the Neo-**** Christchurch killer his “friend” and had taken money, personally, from a state that funded that killer.

If Johnson, Jo Swinson, or anyone other party leader, let alone individual MPs, had shared a panel in Parliament with members of the now banned terrorist group National Action, almost all of us would be disgusted by now.

Yet Corbyn not only shared platforms with Jew-killing Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists, he not only called them friends, but took anything up to £20,000 from their sponsor, the Holocaust-denying theocratic dictatorship of Iran. Now…imagine you’re Jewish, and then imagine Corbyn in No.10 as PM. Precisely

Until the day that Boris Johnson flirts with actual Muslim-killing terrorists it’s disgusting to draw such analogies, because they are deeply insensitive to our Jewish friends. What’s also disgustingly insensitive is to compare any policy of the Israeli state with a terror group

[ricardo 7,347]

15 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

 imagine Corbyn in No.10 as PM. 

 

No, thats Alice in Woderland stuff😉

[Rock The Boat 1,325]

3 hours ago, ron obvious said:

The full employment is because of the creation of non-jobs. These occur everywhere, but as I said in a previous post these jobs are more prevalent in large organisations. From my observations the larger the organisation the less efficient they become; empire building & general 'hiding' opportunities (always hold a piece of paper when you're wandering around) rapidly increase.

There are larger scale opportunities as well.  I was employed in one of the financial genius Arnie Weinstock's organisations. It was my first contract. I sat around for 6 weeks reading articles on close to carrier noise while they decided what to do with me.

I subsequently discovered Mr. Weinstock made his money from entering into cost plus defence contracts with the government. The more people he employed the more he got.

My sole reason for being employed was to increase his profits. Was that a productive use of my labour? I think not.

 

Mobile phones arrived during my career. The firm's production line shut down while I was there. Basically they couldn't compete with China. (Incidentally I think China will run into trouble soon because even the cheapest labour cannot compete with machines).

You are quite right that new technologies will evolve. However whether they will produce 'industries' in the old sense of the word is unlikely I think. There are skill shortages, but I believe they will be increasingly niche as the skill level of machines increases.

 

Having said all that there are undoubtedly huge opportunities to build green infrastructure, as well as all the improvements we need to make to our houses etc.

Then there's space travel: there's a space launch facility planned for somewhere in the north of Scotland I believe? fantastic!

So perhaps there's reason for optimism after all. But I think there'll have to be a huge culture change, a willingness to continually adapt & retrain for most of us in our working lives that runs against our natural desire for security & stability. There'll be fewer & fewer jobs for life.

Technology changes everything. Except human nature.

 

 

I think there are enormous opportunities to be exploited and much that we don't yet know. If you consider that over the space of 10-15,000 years since we were hunter gatherers, we have only been making scientific discoveries in the past 200 years, I think we still have a long way to go before we run out of things to investigate and apply in some way.

Your example of the electronics industry is a good one, because while you see the numbers of people actually employed in producing the items is reduced by the employment of technology and machinery, there are now multiple new industries that use those electronic components that didn't previously exist and they are all employing people in jobs that didn't exist just a generation ago.

Another factor of note is the rate of change. Your first job, working for Weinstock, was in one of the premier companies in the UK. If you look at the premier companies today, the mainly didn't exist when you started working, and I very much doubt the Facebooks and Instagrams will be the premier companies in the next generation. The simple development of the internet - created by a very small number of smart individuals has led to the creation of millions of jobs globally. I don't know if you'd class these as non-jobs, I'm not sure what the definition is, but there is little wastage in smaller firms who are the real drivers of economic activity, and even then the economic levers come in to play over the longer term to keep things in balance as Lord Weinstock would have discovered eventually.

If you consider that just over one hundred years ago, airplanes were being built in little more than garages by a bunch of carpenters and engine mechanics, the rate of change has been phenomenal, and the aviation industry is worth billions of dollars. Space travel today is somewhere at the level of those carpenters and engineers, in a hundred years from now lunar tourism, as a single example, could be a vast industry.

So I agree with you that a lot of traditional jobs will evolve and be taken over by machinery, specially in the field of manufacturing but I also think we are still at the starting gate when it comes to scientific discovery, and it will be this that creates new industries and new jobs to keep us going for several more centuries to come.

[TCCANARY 263]

37 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

https://unherd.com/2019/11/labour-is-institutionally-anti-semitic/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

 

Yet Boris Johnson, or any rogue Tory MP or member, can and do say racist or borderline racist things, but does the party with a Muslim-origin Chancellor really discriminate against Muslims institutionally? Does it then double down and deny its racism?

This Muslim believes not, and I have never voted Tory in my life, and will not do so this time either. There are problems in the Conservative Party, yes. I disagree with them, yes. But they are yet to meet the test of being institutionally anti-Muslim.

The comparison of Tory anti-Muslim bigotry would only be appropriate if Boris Johnson had called the Neo-**** Christchurch killer his “friend” and had taken money, personally, from a state that funded that killer.

If Johnson, Jo Swinson, or anyone other party leader, let alone individual MPs, had shared a panel in Parliament with members of the now banned terrorist group National Action, almost all of us would be disgusted by now.

Yet Corbyn not only shared platforms with Jew-killing Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists, he not only called them friends, but took anything up to £20,000 from their sponsor, the Holocaust-denying theocratic dictatorship of Iran. Now…imagine you’re Jewish, and then imagine Corbyn in No.10 as PM. Precisely

Until the day that Boris Johnson flirts with actual Muslim-killing terrorists it’s disgusting to draw such analogies, because they are deeply insensitive to our Jewish friends. What’s also disgustingly insensitive is to compare any policy of the Israeli state with a terror group

Johnson has been paid for the racist articles he's written for the Telegraph and the Spectator.

Anyone who has travelled in the Middle East would know that the term 'friend' is widely used, just getting in a Taxi you will be asked "where would you like to go to my friend?".

 

[ron obvious 1,501]

I think you're right RTB. I suppose what I'm really worried about is the creation of non-jobs - jobs nobody would pay someone else to do because they're pointless, simply to make government employment figures look good.

Ages ago (on another forum) I made a long post meditating on panem et circenses. Essentially the panem bit is nailed (food is produced with tiny amounts of labour), the only problem being an artificially restricted market in housing, which consumes a vast proportion of disposable income (especially if you're young).

So really we're mostly employed in the circenses industries. Entertainment is now the main driver of employment in one form or another - especially, & paradoxically, in the food industry.

That's not a problem as far as I'm concerned. Great that we spend most of our time entertaining ourselves & others; they don't have to be completely shallow pursuits, I would include many intellectual, philosophical & religious activities in the circenses category.

It's also interesting that entertainment enterprises can be highly labour intensive, e.g. Aardman Animations. 

I think I'm basically an optimist. Comes with the NCFC territory!

[Jools 584]

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Jools said:

The problem for Labour now is their big NHS conspiracy theory stunt (which has seriously backfired) was intended for a day or two before election day as their big final gotcha, but they had to bring it forward to distract from the Neil car crash ...

Not sure what else they have left now.

And today I/We get an answer:

The BBC is reporting Labour woke up this morning, saw the results of YouGov’s MRP constituency poll and finally realised the British public care about Brexit. It seems like only yesterday Labour took Sky News to court for describing this as the ‘Brexit Election’…  😀

 

So Labour are going to replace one set of lies, which aren't working, with another set of lies that they think are more likely to delude voters  🤥🤪😀

 

🤡🌏

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Printing as you and I knew it is long gone, just like the old metal bashing industries and mining in the the 1970's. The technology of today has made many of the old skills redundant, especially in the print industry. I am sure you can recall the demise of Letterpress that led to the end for Compositers and then later computer to plate saw the final chop for film comps. The Wapping riots and strikes were never going to hold back the march of progress, even the Unions realised this in the end. Nothing stays the same forever KG.

I did my apprenticeship as a Compositor at Jarrolds. Or Typographical Architect as we liked to be known. Then did film makeup, then paste up, then VDU  page makeup, redundant, then went into screen printing.

Jarrolds has gone (maybe for different reasons), the company I did screen printing has gone. My son was doing repro for the company I joined down here in Cornwall and that department has gone.

I welcome technology as I am using it to communicate with you. And internet banking, skype, smart tv's etc are all welcome. And no tears about it from me but I just wish other industries like fishing and its lobbyists would realise they don't hold a monopoly.

[Rock The Boat 1,325]

1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

I think you're right RTB. I suppose what I'm really worried about is the creation of non-jobs - jobs nobody would pay someone else to do because they're pointless, simply to make government employment figures look good.

Ages ago (on another forum) I made a long post meditating on panem et circenses. Essentially the panem bit is nailed (food is produced with tiny amounts of labour), the only problem being an artificially restricted market in housing, which consumes a vast proportion of disposable income (especially if you're young).

So really we're mostly employed in the circenses industries. Entertainment is now the main driver of employment in one form or another - especially, & paradoxically, in the food industry.

That's not a problem as far as I'm concerned. Great that we spend most of our time entertaining ourselves & others; they don't have to be completely shallow pursuits, I would include many intellectual, philosophical & religious activities in the circenses category.

It's also interesting that entertainment enterprises can be highly labour intensive, e.g. Aardman Animations. 

I think I'm basically an optimist. Comes with the NCFC territory!

Well done, Ron! Always look on the bright side of life. I think you are right in that in the big picture of things we are just about hauling ourselves out of the survival stage, in terms of the amount of resources that we have to put into keeping life and limb together. As you say a lot of income is spent on housing (in the West, and mainly due to price of land, in developing countries you could knock up something basic that won't cost a lifetime to pay back) and the cost of food as a proportion of income keeps falling, so we do have more time/money to devote to leisure/entertainment activities, and some of that time/resource could be spent in personal self-improvement/self-actualisation.

I am certain that when we get the technology that allows us to create our own household goods using 3D printing machinery that this will actually be a driver for niche craft industries, such as handmade furniture. There will be a demand for non-standardised, quality products and we will enter a new golden age of craft work. It's already happening in brewing, for example.

[ricardo 7,347]

18 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Printing as you and I knew it is long gone, just like the old metal bashing industries and mining in the the 1970's. The technology of today has made many of the old skills redundant, especially in the print industry. I am sure you can recall the demise of Letterpress that led to the end for Compositers and then later computer to plate saw the final chop for film comps. The Wapping riots and strikes were never going to hold back the march of progress, even the Unions realised this in the end. Nothing stays the same forever KG.

I did my apprenticeship as a Compositor at Jarrolds. Or Typographical Architect as we liked to be known. Then did film makeup, then paste up, then VDU  page makeup, redundant, then went into screen printing.

Jarrolds has gone (maybe for different reasons), the company I did screen printing has gone. My son was doing repro for the company I joined down here in Cornwall and that department has gone.

I welcome technology as I am using it to communicate with you. And internet banking, skype, smart tv's etc are all welcome. And no tears about it from me but I just wish other industries like fishing and its lobbyists would realise they don't hold a monopoly.

Well unless they can just hoover fish out of the sea I guess there will always be fisherman and fishing boats. The only thing that limits them is the amount of catchable fish at a saleable price.

[Herman 9,717]

2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

https://unherd.com/2019/11/labour-is-institutionally-anti-semitic/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

 

Yet Boris Johnson, or any rogue Tory MP or member, can and do say racist or borderline racist things, but does the party with a Muslim-origin Chancellor really discriminate against Muslims institutionally? Does it then double down and deny its racism?

This Muslim believes not, and I have never voted Tory in my life, and will not do so this time either. There are problems in the Conservative Party, yes. I disagree with them, yes. But they are yet to meet the test of being institutionally anti-Muslim.

The comparison of Tory anti-Muslim bigotry would only be appropriate if Boris Johnson had called the Neo-**** Christchurch killer his “friend” and had taken money, personally, from a state that funded that killer.

If Johnson, Jo Swinson, or anyone other party leader, let alone individual MPs, had shared a panel in Parliament with members of the now banned terrorist group National Action, almost all of us would be disgusted by now.

Yet Corbyn not only shared platforms with Jew-killing Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists, he not only called them friends, but took anything up to £20,000 from their sponsor, the Holocaust-denying theocratic dictatorship of Iran. Now…imagine you’re Jewish, and then imagine Corbyn in No.10 as PM. Precisely

Until the day that Boris Johnson flirts with actual Muslim-killing terrorists it’s disgusting to draw such analogies, because they are deeply insensitive to our Jewish friends. What’s also disgustingly insensitive is to compare any policy of the Israeli state with a terror group

All I can say is that I am glad I took the time to read the whole article rather than this rather out of context and misleading excerpt. (You're no related to Winky?)

Here is a differing view from a Jewish Labour voice.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/22/jewish-voting-labour-antisemitism-progressive-government

[Van wink 2,994]

10 minutes ago, Herman said:

All I can say is that I am glad I took the time to read the whole article rather than this rather out of context and misleading excerpt. (You're no related to Winky?)

Here is a differing view from a Jewish Labour voice.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/22/jewish-voting-labour-antisemitism-progressive-government

How very dare you !

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Well unless they can just hoover fish out of the sea I guess there will always be fisherman and fishing boats. The only thing that limits them is the amount of catchable fish at a saleable price.

The opinion of British fishermen by European fishermen is that they are greedy. Not just in terms of quotas but in attitude.

European fishermen share their knowledge, share good fishing grounds and when they have made a good catch they stop and let someone else have a go. They say British fishermen are first come first served, gorge themselves but don't leave any for anyone else. And then moan.

And we sell 64% of fish caught in these waters to the EU!

[Herman 9,717]

This Churchillian beast wants to be leader of the country.🤣

"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender............."

"What about an interview with Andrew Neil?"

"I'm a bit busy, sorry."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50592259

[Herman 9,717]

 

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

3 hours ago, Jools said:

And today I/We get an answer:

The BBC is reporting Labour woke up this morning, saw the results of YouGov’s MRP constituency poll and finally realised the British public care about Brexit. It seems like only yesterday Labour took Sky News to court for describing this as the ‘Brexit Election’…  😀

 

So Labour are going to replace one set of lies, which aren't working, with another set of lies that they think are more likely to delude voters  🤥🤪😀

 

🤡🌏

Did Labour write their lies on the side of a bus?

J 🤡🤡ls 

[Van wink 2,994]

Just now, Hoola Han Solo said:

Did Labour write their lies on the side of a bus?

J 🤡🤡ls 

Lies have unfortunately become the currency of political debate on all sides.

[Herman 9,717]

 

[Herman 9,717]

5 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Lies have unfortunately become the currency of political debate on all sides.

I agree. The Conservatives, the Brexit Company and Ukip need to sort themselves out.