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The Positive Brexit Thread

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1 minute ago, Van wink said:

I don’t accept that, if there was an electable centrist party it would perform very well imo. 

Precisely, FPTP makes it impossible for such a party to emerge/prosper.

Perhaps you should turn the question around and ask yourself why if you think there is such a desire amongst voters for a centrist party it doesn't exist already - its not hard to set up a politcal party/company, even Farage has managed it quite successfully twice.

Perhaps it's worth adding that whilst FPTP is the main culprit it isn't the only one, our media (also pretty useless) would either crucify or totally ignore a centrist party so they would be at a huge electoral disavantage - it just isn't going to happen. Nothing is going to change unless Labour somehow wake up and realise that a PR system would actually benefit them but I think they're still mired in 20th century political thinking so I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen.

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10 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Precisely, FPTP makes it impossible for such a party to emerge/prosper.

Perhaps you should turn the question around and ask yourself why if you think there is such a desire amongst voters for a centrist party it doesn't exist already - its not hard to set up a politcal party/company, even Farage has managed it quite successfully twice.

Perhaps it's worth adding that whilst FPTP is the main culprit it isn't the only one, our media (also pretty useless) would either crucify or totally ignore a centrist party so they would be at a huge electoral disavantage - it just isn't going to happen. Nothing is going to change unless Labour somehow wake up and realise that a PR system would actually benefit them but I think they're still mired in 20th century political thinking so I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen.

Great post.

It must be because I totally agree! 😉 

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26 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Precisely, FPTP makes it impossible for such a party to emerge/prosper.

Perhaps you should turn the question around and ask yourself why if you think there is such a desire amongst voters for a centrist party it doesn't exist already - its not hard to set up a politcal party/company, even Farage has managed it quite successfully twice.

Perhaps it's worth adding that whilst FPTP is the main culprit it isn't the only one, our media (also pretty useless) would either crucify or totally ignore a centrist party so they would be at a huge electoral disavantage - it just isn't going to happen. Nothing is going to change unless Labour somehow wake up and realise that a PR system would actually benefit them but I think they're still mired in 20th century political thinking so I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your views about FPTP but I think you are blaming it unfairly for the position we are now in, a lot of this mess is due to poor politicians and not the electoral system. FPTP has provided many moderate governments in my lifetime to the extent that it was often hard to put a fag paper between the policies of the two main players. A rightish  Tory party does not mean that the opposition needs to be equally as extreme. That’s is a consequence of how Labour has changed as a party and who now controls it, rather than FPTP.

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11 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Fair play Hermy you read the script this morning😉

Its all a matter of perception.

I place Boris to the left of Thatcher.

Herman places Boris to the right of Gengis Khan.😉

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1 minute ago, ricardo said:

Its all a matter of perception.

I place Boris to the left of Thatcher.

Herman places Boris to the right of Gengis Khan.😉

You're an idiot. Don't vote. 

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11 minutes ago, Herman said:

You're an idiot. Don't vote. 

As long as I'm not clinically insane or a peer of the realm I am allowed to exercise my franchise😀

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I've probably said this before but South Park got it right when they said pretty much every election ends up being a vote for a Giant Douche or a Turd Sandwich.

image.png.75c27533177b8a9043c5b68d07859e4c.png

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43 minutes ago, Herman said:

Are you admitting your nonsense is scripted. Straight from CCHQ?

If it was scripted from CCHQ it would be even less coherent than it usually is.

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

As long as I'm not clinically insane or a peer of the realm I am allowed to exercise my franchise😀

Just remember this time, right wingers vote on odd numbered days. 

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Its all a matter of perception.

I place Boris to the left of Thatcher.

Herman places Boris to the right of Gengis Khan.😉

Boris is flexible on most things - much the same as with Trump. The truth, his politics, marriages, morals - are all subservient and dispensable to his ego and what's best for Boris. Always ends badly. 

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It seems to me that when times are tough then the divide between the parties widens but as things become easier then even the main two parties become more centrist. There is nothing for the extremes to pin their mantras on.

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3 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Definitely not - FPTP has always polarised our politics and now more so than ever.

It is binary and driving the two established parties to extremes.

There simply is no centre ground in UK politics any more and the voters are gravitating to one or other of the only two parties that they think can win even though they have both vividly demonstrated how useless and untrustworthy they are.

A very dire demonstration of how a sh*t electoral system delivers sh*t parliaments/governments, which if we were honest with ourselves we'd realise has happened in this country on a very regular basis over the last 50 years and looks set to continue.

 

On the contrary, the system is working very well indeed, although a bit slower than we would like. 

Most government's since the war, with a few notable exceptions, have been centrist governments and they've been put there by FPTP. Extreme parties are kept out of the system. FPTP encourages centrism and a Cameron government is very similar to a Blair government. Clegg could slide into power without too much upheaval. That's Centrism at work. 

But right now the country is going through a non-nomal period where the centre is unable to deliver what people want and it is - if not collapsing - then at least sagging. And it is voters who are driving the move away from the centre - not the politicians. If anything we have seen politicians trying to hang on to the centre with their party-hopping antics, but the voters aren't having any of it and are looking away from the centre for a solution to our current problems. This probably explains why the polls have voters drifting from LD to Labour. Voters realise a radical solution is necessary and that's what they look to be delivering. 

So the system isn't broken but like a big ship it takes time to change course. And voters are far more savvy than commentators give them credit for. 

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Creative Midfielder

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3 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

So you think leaving the EU will ruin this country ? Wait till Labour get in !

No to both - incompetent, lying, corrupt politicians have already ruined this country but that doesn't mean it can't get worse still as Boris is already demonstrating.

I'm afraid you will be disappointed, as it's going to be one or the other.

Edited by SwindonCanary

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7 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

It seems to me that when times are tough then the divide between the parties widens but as things become easier then even the main two parties become more centrist. There is nothing for the extremes to pin their mantras on.

I think there is probably something in that but unlike @VW I still see it as a major problem that for the last century we really only have two parties taking Buggins turn at government and an electoral system which pretty effectively locks any other political parties  out of gaining any real purchase in Parliament.

IMO this has always been a problem, but perhaps it was less of a problem 50 years ago when there was at least some elements of consensus between the parties and the general population. However since then the parties have become more polarised, and also we have been faced with several serious issues which cut across the traditional left\right divide - and this is where the two party system and FPTP elections have completely failed us. 

So now we have an very right wing authoritarian party facing off against a pretty old fashioned left wing party, fighting propaganda campaigns through the media and internet, scarely ever directly interacting with voters, or indeed serious journalists. I don't believe that either the Tory manifesto or the Labour represent what anything other than a pretty small minority of people actually want or believe in but we can be pretty sure that 70%-80% of voters will vote for one or other anyway and between them they'll win 95% of the seats. It is a total disgrace and quite shameful that we have allowed our democracy to descend to such a farce and the result will be another exceptionally low calibre Parliament.

If we had a PR based system then between these two polarised and extreme standpoints there would a spectrum of smaller parties who would more closely represent what most voters actually believe in. No single party would gain a working majority and there would be a coalition which would much more closely represent what people had actually voted for than any of our previous governments (no government since the war has won more than 50% of the popular vote, maybe it was different in the 18th century when only the right people were allowed to vote!).

The extremists on either side may win a few seats (and why not if people voted in sufficient numbers for them) but it's highly unlikely they would get anywhere near government - not perfect but a hell of a lot better than what we have now!

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19 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:
No to both - incompetent, lying, corrupt politicians have already ruined this country but that doesn't mean it can't get worse still as Boris is already demonstrating.

I'm afraid you will be disappointed, as it's going to be one or the other.

No, I don't think leaving the EU is going to ruin to country because its already ruined!

And no, I don't think Labour is going to get in, but you're right that I'm going to be disappointed because whether Boris gets in or we get a hung Parliament then bad as things are now they will get worse.

Frankly I've been disappointed in, in fact actually ashamed of, this country for quite a long while now and that isn't going to change in the foreseeable future.

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think there is probably something in that but unlike @VW I still see it as a major problem that for the last century we really only have two parties taking Buggins turn at government and an electoral system which pretty effectively locks any other political parties  out of gaining any real purchase in Parliament.

IMO this has always been a problem, but perhaps it was less of a problem 50 years ago when there was at least some elements of consensus between the parties and the general population. However since then the parties have become more polarised, and also we have been faced with several serious issues which cut across the traditional left\right divide - and this is where the two party system and FPTP elections have completely failed us. 

So now we have an very right wing authoritarian party facing off against a pretty old fashioned left wing party, fighting propaganda campaigns through the media and internet, scarely ever directly interacting with voters, or indeed serious journalists. I don't believe that either the Tory manifesto or the Labour represent what anything other than a pretty small minority of people actually want or believe in but we can be pretty sure that 70%-80% of voters will vote for one or other anyway and between them they'll win 95% of the seats. It is a total disgrace and quite shameful that we have allowed our democracy to descend to such a farce and the result will be another exceptionally low calibre Parliament.

If we had a PR based system then between these two polarised and extreme standpoints there would a spectrum of smaller parties who would more closely represent what most voters actually believe in. No single party would gain a working majority and there would be a coalition which would much more closely represent what people had actually voted for than any of our previous governments (no government since the war has won more than 50% of the popular vote, maybe it was different in the 18th century when only the right people were allowed to vote!).

The extremists on either side may win a few seats (and why not if people voted in sufficient numbers for them) but it's highly unlikely they would get anywhere near government - not perfect but a hell of a lot better than what we have now!

sorry CM, but this is complete nonsense. Since the war, the two main parties have dominated the centre ground of politics. It is only since the referendum that these parties have moved away from the centre and that is in response to Brexit which needs a non-centrist, polarising position to resolve it. It is external factors driving the change, it isn't because the system is broken. Parties are moving away from the centre because the voters have moved away from the centre because they see the need to get Brexit done. If you want Brexit - or stop it - then you have to move from the centre ground. There is already a spectrum of smaller parties in between the two main parties, and all those Change UK, Tigers, Tory Remainers sitting in the centre are all going to get wiped out at the next election and we'll end up with a Parliament more closely aligned to what people want. FPTP will deliver that and with a bit of luck the leading party will have an overall majority which will enable them to work. Having to do deals with small factions is what put us into this mess in the first place, we need a majority government to get things done.

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

sorry CM, but this is complete nonsense. Since the war, the two main parties have dominated the centre ground of politics. It is only since the referendum that these parties have moved away from the centre and that is in response to Brexit which needs a non-centrist, polarising position to resolve it. It is external factors driving the change, it isn't because the system is broken. Parties are moving away from the centre because the voters have moved away from the centre because they see the need to get Brexit done. If you want Brexit - or stop it - then you have to move from the centre ground. There is already a spectrum of smaller parties in between the two main parties, and all those Change UK, Tigers, Tory Remainers sitting in the centre are all going to get wiped out at the next election and we'll end up with a Parliament more closely aligned to what people want. FPTP will deliver that and with a bit of luck the leading party will have an overall majority which will enable them to work. Having to do deals with small factions is what put us into this mess in the first place, we need a majority government to get things done.

The current situation is unprecedented with people not only divided on party lines but also on Brexit. There is no doubt that our system seems unable to cope with referenda but I’m not sure you can blame FPTP for that.

Edited by Van wink

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John McDonnell confirms the Labour Manifesto allows secondary strike action - and secondary picketing!

 

So here we go back to the old days of the 1970s

 

For those of you too young to remember those days, it means that striking dockers, for example, can set up picket lines at hospitals and prevent people from crossing them.

For those who were around at the time, you will recall the bad old days of flying pickets turning up from different parts of the country. You'll remember the violence against those who wanted to go to work. You'll remember the misery of power cuts and the three day week.

 

And Labour wants to bring back those days FFS,

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16 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

John McDonnell confirms the Labour Manifesto allows secondary strike action - and secondary picketing!

 

So here we go back to the old days of the 1970s

 

For those of you too young to remember those days, it means that striking dockers, for example, can set up picket lines at hospitals and prevent people from crossing them.

For those who were around at the time, you will recall the bad old days of flying pickets turning up from different parts of the country. You'll remember the violence against those who wanted to go to work. You'll remember the misery of power cuts and the three day week.

 

And Labour wants to bring back those days FFS,

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/john-mcdonnell-hints-at-legalisation-of-secondary-picketing-and-says-labour-would-give-workers-more-a4293596.html

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell has said his party would allow workers "the right to withdraw their labour" but would not reintroduce secondary picketing.

Secondary picketing - where a picket is set up at a firm not involved in the main strike - was banned in the 1970s under the then Tory Government. 

 

When pushed on whether his pledge meant secondary picketing would be restored under his party, Mr McDonnell told the BBC: "No, no we're not."

RTB remebers the 1970's but does not understand the present.

Another RTB fail.

 

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Brexit Company to make pineapple rings VAT free. Interesting policy in their manifesto. 

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26 minutes ago, Herman said:

Brexit Company to make pineapple rings VAT free. Interesting policy in their manifesto. 

To go with gammon😉

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1 hour ago, TCCANARY said:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/john-mcdonnell-hints-at-legalisation-of-secondary-picketing-and-says-labour-would-give-workers-more-a4293596.html

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell has said his party would allow workers "the right to withdraw their labour" but would not reintroduce secondary picketing.

Secondary picketing - where a picket is set up at a firm not involved in the main strike - was banned in the 1970s under the then Tory Government. 

 

When pushed on whether his pledge meant secondary picketing would be restored under his party, Mr McDonnell told the BBC: "No, no we're not."

RTB remebers the 1970's but does not understand the present.

Another RTB fail.

 

Did you hear his interview on the Today program!

Making it up as they go along......yes, just like the other lot!

Edited by Van wink

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14 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

What about chunks?

I will only vote for a Labour pasty......or a Liberal patsy

Edited by Van wink

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3 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

No, I don't think leaving the EU is going to ruin to country because its already ruined!

And no, I don't think Labour is going to get in, but you're right that I'm going to be disappointed because whether Boris gets in or we get a hung Parliament then bad as things are now they will get worse.

Frankly I've been disappointed in, in fact actually ashamed of, this country for quite a long while now and that isn't going to change in the foreseeable future.

I believe it will all be change after Boris has won the election.

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