The Positive Brexit Thread

[Van wink 2,994]

4 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Nobody cares about public spending as long as it's not Labour wasting it.

Sorry Dan but had to correct that for you.

Ive seen Labour spending in action, the headline figure looks hugely impressive but in reality so much gets wasted trying to do too much too quickly, you end up with massive costly administrative machines and very little ending up where it’s needed

[Van wink 2,994]

21 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

So you take Austin at his word when he says that, but when Corbyn says he isn't an anti-semite you become less trusting?

I completely agree that his ancestral story has influenced his view. He has gone so far the other way. He detests the fact that under Corbyn's Labour Palestinians now have a voice and can't abide the diminishing influence Labour Friend's of Israel now has in the Party. That isn't to say it has no voice, but under Blair Labour was absolutely a pro-Israel party, now it has a more critical view (as it should of an apartheid state), he cannot tolerate it. In many ways, he exhibits extremism in his pro-Israeli perspective; Israel = Good, Palestine = Bad and no evidence, however empirical, will cause him to deviate from this position. That's extremism.

It's not too dissimilar to the approach a lot of you lot adopt. Your presumption of veracity in Austin's view whilst you dismiss those you're disinclined to agree with (Corbyn) when they espouse something you believe to be false is an example of it. You need to be cynical of all politicians; don't drop your guard just because one of them currently is behaving in a way that suits your ends.  

Not sure who “ you lot” is Dan

As for Austin, I believe he was involved in setting up Mainstream, a cross party parliamentary group, to warn people of the dangers of extremism, that’s why I take him at his word.

[BigFish 1,986]

34 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Nobody cares about public spending as long as its with other people's money.

Not a fan of macro-economics then @ricardo? Seems like John McDonnell is leading the economic debate and Javid is deaparately playing catch-up. Thatcherism/neo-liberalism has evidently failed - resulting in the UK's low wage, low productivity, low skill economy. This is largely the result of low investment, both public and private sector. At a time when interest rates are at a record low it is time to reshape the economy.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, Van wink said:

Not sure who “ you lot” is Dan

As for Austin, I believe he was involved in setting up Mainstream, a cross party parliamentary group, to warn people of the dangers of extremism, that’s why I take him at his word.

You take him at his word because you like what he's saying. That's all.

 

8 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Sorry Dan but had to correct that for you.

Ive seen Labour spending in action, the headline figure looks hugely impressive but in reality so much gets wasted trying to do too much too quickly, you end up with massive costly administrative machines and very little ending up where it’s needed

Bit of a vague statement there. To some extent I agree with the abundance of bureaucracy, but you'd be suffering the most acute cases of cognitive dissonance to believe that costly administrative machines are exclusive to Labour. 

The idea that very little ended up where it's needed will be contested. People have short memories about schools pre-1997. Classes of 35+ with a solitary teacher. You'd get a TA only in a class that had a child with pretty severe special educational needs. My own primary school in Brundall is something of a microcosm. Classrooms in rotting, leaking portakabins, half a dozen computers in the whole school that you managed a handful of minutes in an academic year. Within a few years of Labour government, those mobile classrooms vanished, the school had a dedicated computer suite and teacher's were not fighting over who needed to overhead projector the most on a Thursday afternoon.

And whilst the PFI-funding was an ill-conceived idea, Norwich also acts as something of a microcosm for the pre and post 1997 health service with a dilapidated hospital making way for what was one of the country's finest when it opened. Sadly, nine years of Tory neglect and thinks are certainly starting to rollback. Just like it is with Sure Start, a policy that I have witnessed first hand the brilliant, frequently life-altering and occasionally life-saving work they were able to do as a result of increased Labour spending.

Dismissing these real, tangible benefits to society as an impressive looking headline figure is duplicitous to the extreme. And I don't even like Tony Blair, but the policies he implemented through increased state-spending benefited millions.

[BigFish 1,986]

Massive swing happening against Dominic Raab it appears.........

Edited November 7, 2019 by BigFish

[Van wink 2,994]

"Bit of a vague statement there. To some extent I agree with the abundance of bureaucracy, but you'd be suffering the most acute cases of cognitive dissonance to believe that costly administrative machines are exclusive to Labour. "

 

Not exclusive Dan, but a willingness to overburden state spending with huge bureaucratic bodies is very much a feature of Labour administration.

As for PFI, yes we got a lovely new hospital at an ongoing cost which is a millstone around the neck of Local health providers and will be for many years to come. Labour did invest massively in the NHS but blew a lot of the cash, the "new " as it was then, GP contract for example was a huge win for the bank balances of GP's but didnt deliver value for money. It also resulted in local heath trusts having to buy in cover for out of hours  services that had previously been delivered by local practices.

I dont decry the need to invest in these services, far from it, but big budget headlines and commitments to massive spending are not the way to make serious long term improvements, if you are going to invest it needs to be part of a long term strategy not a knee jerk response.

As for your comment about Austin, I have shown you what he has done.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Van wink

[BigFish 1,986]

Redwood could be going too (the Brexiteer surge looking shaky).....

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by BigFish

[Van wink 2,994]

6 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Redwood could be going too (the Brexiteer surge looking shaky).....

 

Not sure we are going to see the usual national trends in this election, local tactical voting is going to play a huge part. It could come down to a two horse race between Lib Dems and the Tories, Labour have lost ( or have never had ) a convincing message on Brexit which I still think will end up being the defining issue of this election.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Van wink

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, Van wink said:

It could come down to a two horse race between Lib Dems and the Tories

Lol.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Lol.

It would be amusing

[Bill 1,788]

14 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Redwood could be going too (the Brexiteer surge looking shaky).....

much as the ICM poll over the w/e had - which led to my thought that in the surburbs, the wealthy areas outside of London will see a switch away from Johnson's lunatic ideas to the Libdems - hence Swinson making loud noises about them not working with Labour after the GE, as this would allow the bigots to warn that vote LibDem get Corbyn

however if this pans out as it currently appears then the Libdems will be in coalition with Labour - they can hardly prop up a brexit favouring Johnson administration so expect the above to be trotted out at some point, as well as the usual scaremongering, as there is not much else Johnson can say

nine years of cuts that have decimated the police forces, schools, local government, the NHS while all the time borrowing more

look after the banks and leave others to food banks.....sounds like much to trumpet there

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

So you take Austin at his word when he says that, but when Corbyn says he isn't an anti-semite you become less trusting?

 

From todays Jewish Chronicle

https://www.thejc.com/comment/leaders/to-all-our-fellow-british-citizens-1.491812

Edited November 7, 2019 by Van wink

[canarydan23 4,060]

19 minutes ago, Van wink said:

From todays Jewish Chronicle

https://www.thejc.com/comment/leaders/to-all-our-fellow-british-citizens-1.491812

Do you find it interesting that a circulation with such a minuscule readership is being given so much media attention today? Take the Morning Star for instance, that has a much wider audience in terms of numbers but when do you remember the BBC ever waving their front cover all over their news coverage if they were to warn against voting for Boris Johnson for being an Islamophobe?

I suppose the difference is Johnson has actually made Islamophobic comments (as has the current editor of The Jewish Chronicle, also a regular contributor to The Mail and The Sun and other balanced publications), whereas Corbyn has not said anything anti-semitic.

Indeed, the Jewish Chronicle has certainly become more aggressive in their anti-Corbyn stance since it was rescued from collapse by the funding of just 20 anonymous individuals. I wonder what their incentive was and why they wanted their "community-orientated" act to be kept under wraps?

 

[Bill 1,788]

I wonder if hand crank/RTB has any update on the smears regarding Czech intelligence and Corbyn

as he told us last Feb that there would be more to come........................there wasn't

still, if your choice is promoting the virtues of Johnson or trying to smear Corbyn you can see why poor hand crank/RTB is left with the above

.......................though in this case you can expect more

[Van wink 2,994]

6 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Do you find it interesting that a circulation with such a minuscule readership is being given so much media attention today? Take the Morning Star for instance, that has a much wider audience in terms of numbers but when do you remember the BBC ever waving their front cover all over their news coverage if they were to warn against voting for Boris Johnson for being an Islamophobe?

I suppose the difference is Johnson has actually made Islamophobic comments (as has the current editor of The Jewish Chronicle, also a regular contributor to The Mail and The Sun and other balanced publications), whereas Corbyn has not said anything anti-semitic.

Indeed, the Jewish Chronicle has certainly become more aggressive in their anti-Corbyn stance since it was rescued from collapse by the funding of just 20 anonymous individuals. I wonder what their incentive was and why they wanted their "community-orientated" act to be kept under wraps?

 

You asked me why I didnt believe Corbyn Dan. Denial that a problem exists is not a solution.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Van wink

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, Van wink said:

You asked me why I didnt believe Corbyn Dan.

And I'm explaining to you why you oughta be careful swallowing what The Jewish Chronicle feeds you. For balance, you should also be very careful swallowing what The Morning Star feeds you, but I suspect you've learned that lesson well.

Again, as with your trust in Ian Austin, your acceptance of The JC at face value is again, because you like what it's saying.

Cynicism, VW, even moreso when the source appears to be affirming an opinion you already hold.

[Van wink 2,994]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

And I'm explaining to you why you oughta be careful swallowing what The Jewish Chronicle feeds you. For balance, you should also be very careful swallowing what The Morning Star feeds you, but I suspect you've learned that lesson well.

Again, as with your trust in Ian Austin, your acceptance of The JC at face value is again, because you like what it's saying.

Cynicism, VW, even moreso when the source appears to be affirming an opinion you already hold.

Im not swallowing anything Dan, I am giving you evidence to answer the question you posed.

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, Bill said:

I wonder if hand crank/RTB has any update on the smears regarding Czech intelligence and Corbyn

as he told us last Feb that there would be more to come........................there wasn't

still, if your choice is promoting the virtues of Johnson or trying to smear Corbyn you can see why poor hand crank/RTB is left with the above

.......................though in this case you can expect more

You see, this is what I'm getting at with VW. He was so desperate for the Czech thing to be true that he'd try and fit any little thing in the Corbyn is a spy box, resulting in poorly-formed opinions and feebly analysed predictions.

The process is the same here; he is desperate for Corbyn to be an anti-semite (he isn't) so will wave the banner for anyone and anything that gives weight to this opinion and then man the barricades when any evidence to the contrary is placed before him.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, Van wink said:

Im not swallowing anything Dan, I am giving you evidence to answer the question you posed.

You've contradicted yourself. By accepting this missive as evidence then you are swallowing it.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

You've contradicted yourself. By accepting this missive as evidence then you are swallowing it.

Not true Dan.

It is evidence, what we all have to decide is how much weight we give to it in forming an opinion.

[Van wink 2,994]

4 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

You see, this is what I'm getting at with VW. He was so desperate for the Czech thing to be true that he'd try and fit any little thing in the Corbyn is a spy box, resulting in poorly-formed opinions and feebly analysed predictions.

The process is the same here; he is desperate for Corbyn to be an anti-semite (he isn't) so will wave the banner for anyone and anything that gives weight to this opinion and then man the barricades when any evidence to the contrary is placed before him.

You havnt provided any evidence Dan

[Bill 1,788]

2 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Im not swallowing anything Dan, I am giving you evidence to answer the question you posed.

A leader in a newspaper is not evidence

The only evidence here is your constant posting of misinformation as accepted fact

The 'Corbyn is an anti-semite' is merely the wish of your sort to smear

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, Van wink said:

You havnt provided any evidence Dan

Evidence of what? Are you getting a little confused?

[Van wink 2,994]

Just now, Bill said:

A leader in a newspaper is not evidence

The only evidence here is your constant posting of misinformation as accepted fact

The 'Corbyn is an anti-semite' is merely the wish of your sort to smear

 

Of course its evidence.

What you neeed to do is decide how much weight you give to it ( thought you would have known that )

[Herman 9,713]

Winky uses anti semitism as a political football, he has done for ages, rather than a problem that needs sorting. 

[Van wink 2,994]

Just now, Herman said:

Winky uses anti semitism as a political football, he has done for ages, rather than a problem that needs sorting. 

I think it was Mr Austin that raised it Hermy

[Bill 1,788]

3 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Of course its evidence.

What you neeed to do is decide how much weight you give to it ( thought you would have known that )

there are plenty of places on the internet where you can read opinions that we can speak to the dead

the question is not one of how much weight you give to that 'evidence' - but why you are giving any weight, and what is the intent behind that

something I suggest Dan has already shown

and as far as I am concerned has proven..... you are a bigot, a habitual lying one at that

 

[Herman 9,713]

You've been raising it every time Labour start performing well. It's quite obvious that you and the right wing press are not in the slightest bit interested in the problems of Jewish people and their troubles with the Labour Party.

Labour failed in not dealing with clear anti semitism in their party a long time ago. Others using it to win arguments are failing the people they pretend to care about. It stinks. 

[Van wink 2,994]

If you think the best way to solve a problem is to pretend it doesn’t exist, and become abusive that’s your privilege Billy 👍

[Bill 1,788]

if you think that hand crank is a right wing nutter souting nonsense take a look at what this similar minded loony is claiming

https://www.indy100.com/article/corbyn-stalin-tory-mp-shoot-rich-people-nadhim-zahawi-andrew-neil-9188851