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Fiery Zac

McLean, Stiepermann and Buendia

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Fantastic result tonight. Should’ve been easier but we don’t do things like that.

Few points though:

No changes tonight yet I still thought McLean was poor overall. Particularly first half he gave the ball away a number of times and it was Trybull (who had a great game) who was looking for the ball. McLean seemed unsure of what position he was playing and I think Leitner should be back in for some more control in midfield.

The calls for changes to the line up surprised me by quite a few calling for Stiepermann to be rested. He was and is always pivotal to how we play and again showed it tonight. Not just his majestic goal but his all round play, holding the ball up, running at the defence and his strength mean he (if fit) should play every game.

What a player Buendia is. It’s been said many times but what a find and what a talent. The flick for Pukki was sublime and worth going tonight alone. Along with that he seems to be learning game by game. One particular moment he pulled out of a challenge, the sort he was making and giving away dangerous free kicks and penalties only a few games ago. He never stops running and is highly critical of himself, wanting everything to be perfect. A joy to watch and hopefully will be lighting up the PL next season (with us!).

Rotherham next, presumably same again. Not going to argue with that, Farke knows what he’s doing and will hopefully be doing it until 2022 at least!

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Simon Lappin on radio Norfolk said McClean misplaced 2 passes all night ( his first 2 ) and then was outstanding ? Is somebody not very good because you want a different player in ? If my memory serves me correctly we have won every game since his return ?. He is keeping 2 of our best players ( Leitner and Vrancic ) out of the team, surely there should be no scapegoats in this squad of players, probably as good as we have ever had.

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5 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Simon Lappin on radio Norfolk said McClean misplaced 2 passes all night ( his first 2 ) and then was outstanding ? Is somebody not very good because you want a different player in ? If my memory serves me correctly we have won every game since his return ?. He is keeping 2 of our best players ( Leitner and Vrancic ) out of the team, surely there should be no scapegoats in this squad of players, probably as good as we have ever had.

That's exactly how I saw it. McClean was ropey for the first 5 minutes and very good after that. 

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I obviously saw it differently to Lappin.

First half was very poor and it seemed more than two misplaced passes. Was never really in the game and was certainly not outstanding.

I want a different player in because I believe they are better, and McLean has been poorer in the games he’s played than Leitner was in his. Quite simple really

Edited by Fiery Zac
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Not making a scapegoat of him (have been very complimentary before) but am I not allowed to have any criticisms of tonight’s performance? This is a forum of opinions. Give yours but let me have mine.

In my opinion we control the midfield better with Leitner or Vrancic starting. Also a lot around me commented on the tempo of our play at times, it was disjointed and often a bit plodding. I believe Leitner is a better player in midfield to set the tempo, knows when to speed the game up, play the quick ball and generally looks for the ball more often to get the play moving. This role was left to Trybull tonight leaving McLean all too often anonymous and putting the onus on Trybull to be the DM breaking up play but also to receive the ball from deep and start our moves (Leitners role).

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Its funny how opinions vary. Mcclean started very poorly so I think that influenced opinion on the whole game.

I actually thought trybull was below par today but then I guess he's the only real defensive minded midfielder so can be fighting a losing battle sometimes.

I think overall the midfield were poor defensively, quite a few passes and flicks going astray, and lots of backing away and leaving space for Hull to run into, though I suppose you even attack and be open like us or defend and be like middlesbro 

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Agreed about the midfield, especially in the 2nd half. Felt that around the hour mark, and us being 3-1 up, we could have made a change without too much rancour. Could have taken McClean off and no one would really have protested, but it would (could) have given us  a much better grip on the midfield battle, and with 2 goals to the good, an 'improved' midfield at that stage, could have gone on to a much bigger winning margin

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11 minutes ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

Agreed about the midfield, especially in the 2nd half. Felt that around the hour mark, and us being 3-1 up, we could have made a change without too much rancour. Could have taken McClean off and no one would really have protested, but it would (could) have given us  a much better grip on the midfield battle, and with 2 goals to the good, an 'improved' midfield at that stage, could have gone on to a much bigger winning margin

What did I miss ? Leitner came on after 85 minutes and McClean moved out of the midfield to play number 10. We then conceded the second goal, Leitner came on before they scored ? 

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1 minute ago, Well b back said:

What did I miss ? Leitner came on after 85 minutes and McClean moved out of the midfield to play number 10. We then conceded the second goal, Leitner came on before they scored ? 

Yeh Leitner was on a whole minute before they scored, he should’ve had the midfield sorted and stopped Godfrey from wondering away from Martin for the goal.

Come on, be serious

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I think we all have favourites and like to see them in the team. What's wrong with that?

Farke doesn't have favourites so picks his team accordingly. 

We don't see many players with injuries unless they're serious. Must be something in the water🙃

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McLean was ok but we need better than ok when you have the calibre of Vrancic and Leitner warming the bench. Agree with FZ and the subs should have been made much earlier. We made hard work of a pretty pis poor Hull side. Still, results are everything at this stage.

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I think the general philosophy of starting players when they go on from a win is a good one: the motivation to win of guaranteeing that winning secures your slot for the next game is a strong one. 

At the same time though, Michael Bailey was getting surprisingly excited in his video review regarding how late and formulaic the substitutions are, but actually he's right that leaving them so late is of little benefit to those players for keeping match sharp, nor for keeping the team as a whole on the pitch alert. 

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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You can't argue with results, but I was a bit surprised Vrancic and Leitner weren't brought on a bit earlier regardless of who they came on for, given we have another game on Saturday, even if just to spread the load.  Farke knows what he is doing and was keeping the subs till right near the end to break up the play, but maybe Saturday will see them come on a bit earlier. 

But then as I say, you can't argue that we aren't winning and Hull's goals last night weren't really down to the midfielders, although with Leitner in the team you do feel that we might give the ball away less than we do overall and control the game a bit better.

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

At the same time though, Michael Bailey was getting surprisingly excited in his video review regarding how late and formulaic the substitutions are, but actually he's right that leaving them so late is of little benefit to those players for keeping match sharp, nor for keeping the team as a whole on the pitch alert.

Yeh MB was certainly frustrated, and I agree with the points he made. Leitner or Vrancic on earlier would’ve given fresh legs and more than likely gained us more control in midfield. I’ve never watched a game and not noticed Mo or Mario and that was exactly how I look back at the 2nd half of McLeans performance, just pretty anonymous.

Also agree with the complacency in the crowd with the whole hat throwing nonsense. Hopefully the time for a party will come along soon (and a double one with the binners going the other way) but it’s far from a done deal yet, the players need and deserve our full support and concentration for the 90 mins.

Edited by Fiery Zac
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11 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

Also agree with the complacency in the crowd with the whole hat throwing nonsense. Hopefully the time for a party will come along soon (and a double one with the binners going the other way) but it’s far from a done deal yet, the players need and deserve our full support and concentration for the 90 mins.

You can't blame people for getting excited, but there is still a way to go yet.  If we win the next game which could be very important for our season, given the Leeds/Sheff Utd match on the same day, then things will look start to look very promising.  If Leeds win that and we beat Rotherham, then I will start to feel that yes, it could be that we have enough to think we are going to do it, but until that gap to third place is big enough, I won't be celebrating anything other than each three points that comes along.

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41 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

You can't argue with results, but I was a bit surprised Vrancic and Leitner weren't brought on a bit earlier regardless of who they came on for, given we have another game on Saturday, even if just to spread the load.  Farke knows what he is doing and was keeping the subs till right near the end to break up the play, but maybe Saturday will see them come on a bit earlier. 

But then as I say, you can't argue that we aren't winning and Hull's goals last night weren't really down to the midfielders, although with Leitner in the team you do feel that we might give the ball away less than we do overall and control the game a bit better.

 

 

 

I agree with this . I felt it was time for a substitution around the 65th minute mark. We were three one up and the game needed managing. I don't think we managed the game like we should have ... Naturally , if we had taken our chances we would have been out of sight. 

One thing ... their first goal was mainly down to our keeper Lakey...imho

Edited by ROBFLECK
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I did think that McClean was below the high standards he has set himself since breaking into the team.

However, I'm not sure we can really justify changing a team that is in our form.

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Totally agree about Krul, Rob, hopefully after the last two matches he will wake up a bit and distribute the ball a bit quicker, as every opposition team is going to target him now, when he is given the ball - he doesn't have to just lump it up field, just pass needs to pass it a bit quicker.....

 

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Really surprised so many fans getting on McLean's back, without him last night we wouldn't have won the game, his pass to Emi for the 3rd goal was sublime, couldn't see anyone else picking out that option last night, obviously the Emi flick was sensational, other than the first ten minutes when he had a slow start thought he barely put a foot wrong.

 

Trust in Farke has to be the mantra for the rest of the season.

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7 hours ago, Well b back said:

What did I miss ? Leitner came on after 85 minutes and McClean moved out of the midfield to play number 10. We then conceded the second goal, Leitner came on before they scored ? 

Not sure what you mean (when referring to my post) I was on about an upgrade on our midfield at that time. Did you feel our midfield (at that point of the game) was 'flat' and losing a bit of a grip on the game? I did. Hull knocked the ball around quite nicely at times , and were obviously trying to find their way back into the game, and , imo, were slowly doing that. An upgrade, with a Leitner or Vrancic type player, could have had a positive effect, by keeping the ball better (and they do, as McClean is a slightly different player to them) and we could have had at least stayed 2 goals ahead, and possibly extended  the lead, as our play deserved.

We may have just carried on, and finished the game 3-1, and no one would have moaned (it's all about the points) but we could have used the subs to get quality time on the pitch and possibly upgraded the performance , to (possibly) more goals and domination.

If anyone had said (at 40 minutes) that we would be nervously wanting the full time whistle to be blown, we would have looked at them strangely. That is not McCleans 'fault' but I just felt we could have gone on (at 3-1) to really dominate the game, and not give Hull a sniff

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That's a fact Lessingham , the trust in Farke is there... I don't think McLean did that much wrong either , but I didn't agree with our game management. Vrancic or Leitner should have come on earlier imo for either McLean or Trybull.

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The hat thing was a bit distracting. Probably a lesson there for the fans to concentrate on the game, in the same way that the players need to approaching half time. 

I’d agree with MB that a freshen-up to the starting 11 wouldn’t hurt on Saturday. I’d have Vrancic in as he offers goal threat, creativity and a physical presence. I suspect it’ll be the same starting lineup though, and can’t really argue. After the international break, however, I think it’s time to pick the best team.

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I agree with the substitution comments.  Remember last season when DF basically put out a full-strength side for some midweek cup games ?  He had to learn that wasn't a good plan in the Championship.   We have an away game against a Rotherham side that won last night and are scrapping for their life, who will give us a very tough physical contest.  I hope we don't see some players a bit flat who could have done with less than 90 minutes yesterday.

 

Fantastic performance going forward, if we'd taken another chance earlier, we'd have been coasting but we do have this worrying problem of switching off defensively in a game that we're in control of.

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It wasn’t excitement in the crowd Lakey, it was just all far to relaxed, assuming we were going to coast to the end of the game. Oles in the middle of the 2nd half? Hat throwing for no reason but a bit of a laugh? Save the party games for promotion and let’s get the matches won. Many players, Farke and Webber have stressed the importance of the fans, particularly recently so let’s do our bit and get the team through games.

Edited by Fiery Zac
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After being at the Millwall game and watching Mclean with interest, knowing Vrancic was only out for 2 games, I watched his performance closely. 

I was aware at Millwall he was loose in the passing game and the game did pass him by. I will agree that the first 5-10 minutes he was poor, but after commenting to mates he was at it again, I did commend him for that pass for the first goal. However my view of his full performance was of one who went missing, when we played from the back he rarely was an option, with our best moves bypassing the midfield through the full backs or Emil, Marco or Onel dropping a little deeper.

I agree with the comments on here regarding the substitutions and I still think that two better players are on the bench. Vrancic regularly came on during the second half earlier in the season and created goals and also kept us composed. I felt his introduction for Mclean was an obvious one.

At times yesterday we were sublime and other than having the ball in our own third we looked composed. I feel we need to get that back into our game and that is created by Vrancic or Leitner.

In summary, I believe Vrancic was out for 2 games and therefore pretty much match fit, however Farke and his team have decided to stick with Mclean and if we had lost a game or two maybe there would be changes. There hasn't been a loss or two and he has given Mclean and the others the same opportunity has given players throughout the season as we have been on a great winning streak. I do think that of all the positions in the team it is Mcleans that will be looked at, with the accolades for Vrancic performances, goals rightly putting him the conversation as one the Championships best midfielders. Leitner with vision, composure and a key cog in our play from the back to front also being regarded as one of the Championships best midfielders.

So on we go to Rotherham, I expect Mclean to start under Farkes philosophy, however personally he is the player keeping out two of the best championship midfielders and they are rightly breathing down his neck. Can he up his level or will an opportunity fall to one of the others as they come on as subs, we will wait and see.

The sublime football by Buendia, is a joy. His touch, body positioning, intelligence, weight of pass when on the move and his tenacious engine are the envy of the league. He is a stand out performer. Last night he again showed he can perform week in week out. He is a player that I hope we see grace the CR turf for a fair bit longer.

Marco was also a strong outlet, I think there were more positive outcomes in his play this game compared to Swansea and Millwall. The link up play was better from him last night and actually watching him, Buendia, Pukki and Hernandez running at defenders is very exciting.

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I thought Stiepermann and Buendia were superb obviously.

I continue to have worries about the balance of the rest of the midfield and feel that Mclean continues to look a bit of a weak link. Thats not to say that I think he;s a bad player and when Vrancic and Leitner were out I wanted him in the side to give us another passer. But the fact is that both are better players in that role and I think the team plays better with one of them in the side. Most importantly I think we have more of a grip on games with one of them in the side. I didn;t think we were great against Swansea and despite the amount of chances we created and we could have won by about 5 or 6 goals, we ended up hanging on a bit again with a nervy finish. Its not about mclean being poor, its about whether the other players available in that position are better. Both Vrancic and Leitner show for ther ball and give the defenders and Trybull an easy pass option. Last night and against Swansea it was really obvious that at times our defenders, when being pressed, did not have that option. Trybull also was constantly looking for a pass into that midfield pocket that Mo and Vrancic occupy and often there was nobody there.

Our front 4 and the full backs are fantastic and because of that we can always score goals and we can win games against mid table sides without completely controlling them but i do feel that in a run in where every result is crucial its a big risk not playing your best midfielders because we don;t quite have the same grip of games. Rotherham will be well up for it on saturday and we need to keep the ball better and take the sting out of it. 

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6 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

It wasn’t excitement in the crowd Lakey, it was just all far to relaxed, assuming we were going to coast to the end of the game. Oles in the middle of the 2nd half? Hat throwing for no reason but a bit of a laugh? Save the party games for promotion and let’s get the matches won. Many players, Farke and Webber have stressed the importance of the fans, particularly recently so let’s do our bit and get the team through games.

Agree totally with this.

Michael Bailey commented on this hat thing and I said it in the thread about Farke's contract - and Farke himself said he was a bit concerned about it too - the focus should be on tha match and celebrations should wait until we actually achieve promotion. 

The crowd is the twelfth man - and they lost their focus with the hat thing and which Michael Bailey mentioned, at the end of which, Hull scored.  Time after time I've said on here the crowd attitude is a key component of what happens on the pitch - be nervous, worried and it will transmit to the players, be focussed and behind the players and they will respond to that.....start showboating in a game that isn't out of sight and you are asking for trouble.

I get a lot of flack for commenting on fans when I haven't been at a match, but when are we (I do got to some games) going to realise how important we are to the outcome of a match??

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Kenny didn't make many tangible mistakes last night, but his work off the ball is what frustrates me. When the game goes flat and we struggle to pass the ball out from the back, it is usually down to a lack of movement in the midfield. I agree that he is keeping two of the best Championship midfielders out of the team and I don't feel like he is doing quite enough to justify it. I would have definitely been bringing either Vrancic or Leitner on in his place after the third goal went in.

Leitner tends to drop deeper and always makes himself available for a pass. He dictates the tempo and moves the ball quickly, helping the team exploit any overloads created. Vrancic tends to make more direct attacking plays, looking to turn or running into space between the lines. He has been scoring and creating goals. They are too good to be on the bench every week.

 

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17 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Agree totally with this.

Michael Bailey commented on this hat thing and I said it in the thread about Farke's contract - and Farke himself said he was a bit concerned about it too - the focus should be on tha match and celebrations should wait until we actually achieve promotion. 

The crowd is the twelfth man - and they lost their focus with the hat thing and which Michael Bailey mentioned, at the end of which, Hull scored.  Time after time I've said on here the crowd attitude is a key component of what happens on the pitch - be nervous, worried and it will transmit to the players, be focussed and behind the players and they will respond to that.....start showboating in a game that isn't out of sight and you are asking for trouble.

I get a lot of flack for commenting on fans when I haven't been at a match, but when are we (I do got to some games) going to realise how important we are to the outcome of a match??

I didn’t have an issue with the announcement, it was predictable but exciting and got the crowd buzzing, plus it made zero difference to our performance and we scored a couple of early goals. I understand Farkes point but he was just being modest, Webber and the club obviously knew it would have a beneficial impact on the crowd without affecting the players and it was a nice touch. Farke not making a big deal of it either at the time or after the game just heightens the respect the fans and players have for him, the club made it about him and he made the game about the players whilst indulging the fans as he always does after the final whistle. Well played by all at the club.

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11 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Leitner tends to drop deeper and always makes himself available for a pass. He dictates the tempo and moves the ball quickly, helping the team exploit any overloads created. Vrancic tends to make more direct attacking plays, looking to turn or running into space between the lines. He has been scoring and creating goals. They are too good to be on the bench every week.

Exactly. McLean wasn’t doing the Leitner role which put more pressure on Trybull who had to do it whilst also being the DM and whilst there were flashes of decent passing it was very rare and it just felt the game passed him by.

If he’s not suited to the position, put in someone who is (Vrancic and Leitner would get into any championship team) and he’ll have to wait his turn for his favoured position to come up though the rest of the midfield (barring injuries) are nailed on to start every game to the end of the season.

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