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East Rider

Changes for next game?

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I wanted leitner back but if the stories of him kicking the advertising hoardings when not brought on sooner are true then I'm not sure starting him in next game sends out best message.

I would start vrancic over McLean now, as hes more a goal threat then bring leitner on in 2nd half 

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1 hour ago, daisy said:

Quite simple really, Leitner needs to start Wednesday for McLean. We had no creativity against Swansea, harsh on McLean but we need our best players playing so big decisions have to be made. Both Stiepermann and Pukki need that creative player behind them. Quite simple really.

If we want creativity then we should go with Vrancic...

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6 minutes ago, Grando said:

If we want creativity then we should go with Vrancic...

I think we just need to control the game a bit more on Wednesday.

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8 minutes ago, East Rider said:

I think we just need to control the game a bit more on Wednesday.

I’d probably agree and give Mo a go. Bring on Mario it we’re chasing it.

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I personally think dropping Mclean would be a mistake. Steipermann could be rested, Mclean might really look the part in that position with Leitner or Vrancic behind him. For all of Steipermans fantastic work, he does give the ball away a fair bit, and can be guilty of poor decision making. I'd fancy Mclean to create a bit more, but granted, you do lose some physicality. 

I think Mclean has played very well since coming into the side, albeit yesterday he wasn't great. Trybull has been very good too, but he had a stinker against PNE. Trybull could easily have been dropped after that game but wasn't. Good man management by Farke, which is paying off. 

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The next two games give us the ideal opportunity to "rest" a few of the current X1 before the final push and at the same time get the players recently returned from injury back to match fitness.

Personally I give Klose a game in place of Godfrey and I would bring in Vrancic and Leitner in place of Steipermann, who has not been at his sharpest for the last 2 games, and Maclean who is not yet in the same class as either Leitner or Vrancic.

Even allowing for the current form of the team I'm not sure that it would be wise to keep leaving out what are arguably our best 3 players in their respective positions.

Maybe we could even move Godfrey to LB and give Lewis a reast.

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There are several changes I would make but I freely admit Farke knows more about it than me.

I'm happy to leave it to him.

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7 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

The next two games give us the ideal opportunity to "rest" a few of the current X1 before the final push and at the same time get the players recently returned from injury back to match fitness.

Personally I give Klose a game in place of Godfrey and I would bring in Vrancic and Leitner in place of Steipermann, who has not been at his sharpest for the last 2 games, and Maclean who is not yet in the same class as either Leitner or Vrancic.

Even allowing for the current form of the team I'm not sure that it would be wise to keep leaving out what are arguably our best 3 players in their respective positions.

Maybe we could even move Godfrey to LB and give Lewis a reast.

I thought Lewis was very good on Weds. As was the whole back four, which I don’t think I’d change.

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54 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

I personally think dropping Mclean would be a mistake. Steipermann could be rested, Mclean might really look the part in that position with Leitner or Vrancic behind him. For all of Steipermans fantastic work, he does give the ball away a fair bit, and can be guilty of poor decision making. I'd fancy Mclean to create a bit more, but granted, you do lose some physicality. 

I think Mclean has played very well since coming into the side, albeit yesterday he wasn't great. Trybull has been very good too, but he had a stinker against PNE. Trybull could easily have been dropped after that game but wasn't. Good man management by Farke, which is paying off. 

I did think that when Mario came on last night they were going to push kenny forward and have mario sitting deep, I was interested to see the result but it was obviously just a straight swap, however in Daniel we trust I guess.

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2 hours ago, Making Plans said:

The next two games give us the ideal opportunity to "rest" a few of the current X1 before the final push and at the same time get the players recently returned from injury back to match fitness.

Personally I give Klose a game in place of Godfrey and I would bring in Vrancic and Leitner in place of Steipermann, who has not been at his sharpest for the last 2 games, and Maclean who is not yet in the same class as either Leitner or Vrancic.

Even allowing for the current form of the team I'm not sure that it would be wise to keep leaving out what are arguably our best 3 players in their respective positions.

Maybe we could even move Godfrey to LB and give Lewis a reast.

No way would I be looking to make wholesale changes like that at this vital stage. Since Sheffield at home we have won six out of seven games so that must show that we don't need to risk big changes? I would bring back either Mo or Mario, in place of Maclean but that would be the only change for me.

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In the latter part of last season, after a few months of settling in, Vrancic was probably our best player.

 

A few more months down the line and the guy goes from being our best player to the best player in the league. 

 

Leitner is an absolute genius at what he does but Vrancic...he is some player.

 

 

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The argument seems to be - Vrancic and Leitner or Mclean.  That is some choice. Mclean has been the match winner with his goals and assists recently - but it was reassuring to see Vrancic on the pitch again - he oozes quality. But then there is Leitner too......

Then you have Stiepermann who is an important player for us, but if we want to control midfield a bit more, having Vrancic and Leitner in there should do that.  Farke will probably start Mclean and Stiepermann on Wednesday, but might bring on Vrancic and Leitner for them earlier in the match to share the load a bit, bearing in mind the heavy schedule for the players.  A second half with Vrancic and Leitner on the pitch, should allow us to dominate posession a bit more and will give Stiepermann and Mclean a bit of a rest before Saturday.

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It’s not about the results as obviously those have been fine/good, it’s about being proactive and changing something before it costs us rather than reactive and waiting until we go behind inna crucisl game to change it. Yes it’s harsh on McLean but you could also say both Vrancic and Leitner were in superb form before they got injured so it’s been harsh on them not being able to get back in the side. For me, the key thing now it’s getting tight is I want us to control games as much as possible and minimise the risk of upsets and I don’t think the midfield in the last two games has had the usual level of control or kept the ball well enough.

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8 hours ago, lake district canary said:

The argument seems to be - Vrancic and Leitner or Mclean.  That is some choice. Mclean has been the match winner with his goals and assists recently - but it was reassuring to see Vrancic on the pitch again - he oozes quality. But then there is Leitner too......

Then you have Stiepermann who is an important player for us, but if we want to control midfield a bit more, having Vrancic and Leitner in there should do that.  Farke will probably start Mclean and Stiepermann on Wednesday, but might bring on Vrancic and Leitner for them earlier in the match to share the load a bit, bearing in mind the heavy schedule for the players.  A second half with Vrancic and Leitner on the pitch, should allow us to dominate posession a bit more and will give Stiepermann and Mclean a bit of a rest before Saturday.

 

One thing he won’t do is bring any subs on early unless we are losing or someone is injured. He just doesn’t do it.

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Farke has not had the opportunity to make changes, other than by actively breaking his ‘if you / the team play well, you’ll stay in whoever you are’ promise. 

 Now he does.

MacLean and Trybull did not dominate the midfield vs Swansea and Stieperman  has been notably less effective and influential in the last few games. Farke’s Stated aim is to dominate teams and Norwich didn’t do that on Friday. A good coach - and he is absolutely that - knows that performances dictate results over a period, Friday de-facto was a win against the maths and he implied as much by focusing on other aspects rather than dominance.

This trumps the result and allows him the first opportunity for a while to change without breaking his managerial rules.

One reason that we may see a double change for MacLean-Leitner and Stieperman-Vrancic is that to make a single change leave him to ‘choose between his children’ and pick one of Leitner/Vrancic ahead of the other, thus - in the pecking order eyes of the players - defining who is best. If you study Farke.carefulky, he avoids this kind of statement. Protecting the boat is more important. Expect terms such as ‘huge load’ and the appearance of minor injuries for any rested.

Thus it will likely be two changes or no changes. 

Parma

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Posted (edited)

be interesting to see if you're right Palma. I'd prefer two changes rather than none.

Edited by Hairy Canary

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I would prefer Vrancic or Leitner over MacLean - their ability to pass the ball forward, into potentially dangerous counter attacking areas, is pivotal. Maclean's distribution isn't as good.

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9 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Farke has not had the opportunity to make changes, other than by actively breaking his ‘if you / the team play well, you’ll stay in whoever you are’ promise. 

 Now he does.

MacLean and Trybull did not dominate the midfield vs Swansea and Stieperman  has been notably less effective and influential in the last few games. Farke’s Stated aim is to dominate teams and Norwich didn’t do that on Friday. A good coach - and he is absolutely that - knows that performances dictate results over a period, Friday de-facto was a win against the maths and he implied as much by focusing on other aspects rather than dominance.

This trumps the result and allows him the first opportunity for a while to change without breaking his managerial rules.

One reason that we may see a double change for MacLean-Leitner and Stieperman-Vrancic is that to make a single change leave him to ‘choose between his children’ and pick one of Leitner/Vrancic ahead of the other, thus - in the pecking order eyes of the players - defining who is best. If you study Farke.carefulky, he avoids this kind of statement. Protecting the boat is more important. Expect terms such as ‘huge load’ and the appearance of minor injuries for any rested.

Thus it will likely be two changes or no changes. 

Parma

Agree completely. Dropping Mclean would be a mistake in that it could harm his confidence and trust in Farke. However, if it is part of a double change, especially with one of the seemingly more 'favoured' players (Steipermann), it could be a less bitter pill for Mclean to swallow. 

Vrancic and Leitner for Mclean and Steipermann would a positive change. Contrary to a seemingly common view on here, Vrancic can play the 10 role very well. As shown at Sheff Wed and Bournemouth earlier in the season. If Farke does make these changes, it would be nice to see him introduce Mclean and Steipermann early enough to give them good game time, rather than them only get a few minutes here and there.

 

 

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Two games before the break that we must take maximum from. At the end of that period we would then have a bigger lead over one of the two behind us.

I don't think it is the time for wholesale changes either. And I'm not sure whether I agree with Parma. DF has kept Rhodes and now Timm, happy to bide their time. Jordan's doesn't look like coming at the moment either. So I don't think he is afraid of upsetting his apparent star players.

There seems to be an amount who thought McLean was disappointing on Friday. I think that detracts from Swansea's performance a bit but nonetheless was obviously something many thought significant.

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6 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

Contrary to a seemingly common view on here, Vrancic can play the 10 role very well.

He can do,  but no where near as well as Stiepermann. Also no where near as well as he plays in his rightful position as a deep lying playmaker.

No need for square pegs in round holes

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I really don’t get the calls for Stiepermann to be dropped. Neither Vrancic or McLean would be able to receive the ball, back to goal, turn and run at the defence like Marco does. We would become more reliant on Hernandez, Buendia and Pukki being close by and would lose the outlet Stiepermann provides with his strength, driving runs and height. Not saying he’s anywhere near as good but Stiepermann is our version of Pogba and I believe as vital to the structure of our team as Pogba has shown to be in the resurgence of Man U.

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It's a fascinating conundrum to have, with the players that have the shirts keeping out three top players.  I suppose Farke wouldn't want it any other way. 

I don't necessarily agree that Stiepermann could not be replaced with either Vrancic or Mclean - they all offer something a bit different and with Leitner behind any of them pulling the strings, there will be plenty of opportunity for whoever is picked to use their strengths to our advantage.  In reality, with Trybull and Leitner in line up,  Daniel should be able to pick any of the midfielders and it should be able to work well.  There is also a shout for Cantwell, who was key in our success earlier in the season.  The squad is that good and full of good players who have showed they can perform at the necessary level this season. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

He can do,  but no where near as well as Stiepermann. Also no where near as well as he plays in his rightful position as a deep lying playmaker. No need for square pegs in round holes

Zac, if you read up on Vrancic's career you will find that what you call "his rightful position" is actually a role he has had to become comfortable in only since signing for us last year. Last year, central midfield belonged to Maddison, and Vrancic's (few) early appearances were mainly on the right of the three behind the lone striker. When Farke was looking to inject greater attacking threat into our play than the Trybull/Tettey combination provided, he started to use Vrancic in that role, with some success, giving rise to the myth that MV "isn't any good further forward". The successful restoration of Stiepermann to his central midfield role kept Vrancic on the bench at first this season, until Leitner's injury opened the door for him to resume the role he came to fill last year (incidentally with a much improved defensive component this season as opposed to last). 

I've no quarrel with your preference for Stiepermann in the more forward role, just with the suggestion that putting Vrancic there would be putting a square peg in a round hole. 

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Stiepermann is playing a key role in Norwich’s attacking unit. He adds a physicality as well as an abundance of skill, and it would be surprising if he didn’t start the game on Wednesday, especially if dropping him was merely to effect ‘fair changes’.

Leitner for McLean would be a relevant change, to give McLean a rest as much as anything.

It would not surprise me if Cantwell started ahead of Hernandez, just to avoid a single change, although Hernandez is playing exceptionally well at the moment and deserves to start.

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If only Jarvis was fit, we could put Buendia into the No 10 spot and have him and Hernandez on the wings. Maybe with Srbeny up front in place of Pukki who seems like he's missed his poacher's touch in the past couple of games. 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

Zac, if you read up on Vrancic's career you will find that what you call "his rightful position" is actually a role he has had to become comfortable in only since signing for us last year. Last year, central midfield belonged to Maddison, and Vrancic's (few) early appearances were mainly on the right of the three behind the lone striker. When Farke was looking to inject greater attacking threat into our play than the Trybull/Tettey combination provided, he started to use Vrancic in that role, with some success, giving rise to the myth that MV "isn't any good further forward". The successful restoration of Stiepermann to his central midfield role kept Vrancic on the bench at first this season, until Leitner's injury opened the door for him to resume the role he came to fill last year (incidentally with a much improved defensive component this season as opposed to last). 

I've no quarrel with your preference for Stiepermann in the more forward role, just with the suggestion that putting Vrancic there would be putting a square peg in a round hole. 

I haven’t looked into his past career so from all I’ve seen, he looks most comfortable (and why I believe his rightful position) is the deep midfield role, most definitely where he’s most effective (for us).

I may be remembering it wrongly but I don’t remember him ever looking comfortable as a more attacking mid, he certainly looked out of sorts there last season (adjusting to the championship perhaps) but he’s a player that needs some time on the ball, see the play ahead of him, get his head up and pick a pass. Maybe in other leagues he was afforded that in a more forward role but he’s not here and why he looks superb (and natural) slightly deeper.

Edited by Fiery Zac

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1 hour ago, Fiery Zac said:

may be remembering it wrongly but I don’t remember him ever looking comfortable as a more attacking mid, he certainly looked out of sorts there last season (adjusting to the championship perhaps)

He's said himself that he found the adjustment challenging. Two other points. First is that Vrancic was the first signing from Germany that Webber made, presumably with the agreement of DF. IMO he was signed to play in central attacking midfield, the position Maddison convinced DF belonged to him (brave call by DF at the time). Second is that, this season, Vrancic has been the usual bench replacement for Buendia, which indicates to me that DF is happy enough with him playing in a more advanced role. 

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Posted (edited)

Dont disagree with any of that, although I dont believe Stiepermann (signed in the same window as Vrancic) was signed as a LB and has always stated his favourite and effective position was as AM so presumably Webber and Farke signed him as another option/the option after Maddison and competition with Vrancic.

Just glad Farke has now found Vrancics most successful and effective position.

Edited by Fiery Zac

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Hmmm my concern is back when we played Preston DF stuck with the Tettey/Trybull combination (after winning the previous game) and when we conceded an early goal,  we struggled creatively going forward, and ended up completely rejigging the formation in the 2nd half to give us attacking options.

 

My feeling is that Friday was a wakeup call, we didn't control the game as we have been doing.  I would definitely bring in Leitner for McLean. 

 

Not sure about changing Stiepermann for Vrancic.  Mind you, if we need a player behind Pukki who's better at competing for headers for the occasions when we have to go long, I thought McLean actually looked better than anyone else doing that on Friday ?  Stiep is a big guy, but not really that keen on competing for headers IMO.

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All three subs on Friday were taken at times to disrupt and break the flow of the game.  None were made to change the way we were playing. We're extremely luck that we have players of the quality of Klose, Vrancic and Leitner to bring on.  In all of our games bar Preston, we've been in the fortunate position of either winning or drawing, so the formula of sticking with a winning team has worked.

Of course, it depends on the opposition as well.  Swansea offered a very different threat to Millwall and Bolton, Hull will be different to Rotherham.  I was quite surprised he kept with MacLean on Friday, he knew it was going to be a possession based game, so I expected Leitner to start.  As it was, Swansea really got into us, and MacLean seems a bit more physical than Leitner.

With the Rotherham game coming quite quickly after Wednesday, I wonder if he'll make at least one change.  Both games are crucial of course, we need 4 points to maintain the pressure on Leeds and Sheff U, especially as they play each other on Saturday.

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