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Indy

When is a penalty not a penalty?

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Lots of talk this morning of the dodgy penalty award in added time for Man U.......

So my question since when has a in-direct free kick gone out of the game?

This was a classic, non deliberate ball to hand and the ball was going forty foot over the bar!

Surely VAR is to be used to overturn a clear mistake made on field, not for a judgement call?

Add to that it shouldn’t have been a direct free kick in mybook so at worst an in-direct free kick at the spot of the handball?

I’m hoping next season we aren’t going to be at the back end of some poor overturned awards made by semi biased people!

Never a penalty for me, I’m sure others will disagree, and there’s my point it wasn’t clear!

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Firstly, Man Utd's penalty yesterday was never a penalty in a million years.

However, I do not think there was anything actually wrong with the VAR process for that specific call. A referee using clear and detailed video evidence to aid the enforcing of rules, is not a bad thing.

The problem is, no one understands the rules as written. I think the VAR officials were right to point out that the ball hit an arm on the way through, which it did. I think it was right for the referee to go an have a closer look on the monitor. The process failed when the referee incorrectly elected to decide that it was an intentional handball after watching the detailed video evidence.

Has to go down as a refereeing/ruling error in my opinion, not a VAR error.

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From today's report on the  BBC website:

".......... Head of Uefa referees Robert Rossetti told the Times in January that - when VAR was introduced into this season's Champions League - officials would penalise any unnatural arm movement that makes contact with the ball."

"The big challenge is the position of the arm. When the arm is totally out of the body above the shoulder it should be penalised. If the defender is making the body bigger in order to block the ball it is not fair.

"It is different if the defender is challenging or playing the ball and it rebounds. But if he is looking to block a cross or a shot on goal and the player is trying to spread his body then it is a handball."

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21 minutes ago, HertsCanary93 said:

Firstly, Man Utd's penalty yesterday was never a penalty in a million years.

However, I do not think there was anything actually wrong with the VAR process for that specific call. A referee using clear and detailed video evidence to aid the enforcing of rules, is not a bad thing.

The problem is, no one understands the rules as written. I think the VAR officials were right to point out that the ball hit an arm on the way through, which it did. I think it was right for the referee to go an have a closer look on the monitor. The process failed when the referee incorrectly elected to decide that it was an intentional handball after watching the detailed video evidence.

Has to go down as a refereeing/ruling error in my opinion, not a VAR error.

As I understand it from reading Clattenburg on the subject it was correctly awarded because under Uefa guidelines now in place for the Champions League it doesn't have to be deliberate. In other words it doesn't have to be a deliberate movement of the arm towards the ball. All that is required is that the arm is out and in a "non-natural position".

For what little it is worth, I would have given a penalty even without Uefa's new interpretation, on the basis that to jump like that is plainly a deliberate attempt to block the ball. Why else is the player jumping? And if the arm is out, as it was, then that is part of the deliberate attempt to block the ball, by making the body as large as possible.

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6 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

From today's report on the  BBC website:

".......... Head of Uefa referees Robert Rossetti told the Times in January that - when VAR was introduced into this season's Champions League - officials would penalise any unnatural arm movement that makes contact with the ball."

"The big challenge is the position of the arm. When the arm is totally out of the body above the shoulder it should be penalised. If the defender is making the body bigger in order to block the ball it is not fair.

"It is different if the defender is challenging or playing the ball and it rebounds. But if he is looking to block a cross or a shot on goal and the player is trying to spread his body then it is a handball."

So then is it not technically an indirect free kick as it wasn’t deliberate or preventing a goal? Why is every handball a penalty? If it’s accidental it should surely be deemed an indirect free kick or is that a wrong assumption?

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Fair point Purple, I see it as an attempt to block the ball, in my opinion his arm wasn’t in an unnatural position for that jump, and there lies the issue of opinion. The defenders have the right to block so itsdown to people’s perspective of unnatural?

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How many times do we see Zimmerman fling himself wildly in front of shots? Blocking shots is a huge part of being a CB.

I do not for one second think he has jumped to block that with his hand. I also do not think it is an unnatural position. If you run and jump, your hands naturally come up.

It is an interesting debate and no one's opinion is wrong. I think the main point I was trying to make is that VAR itself did nothing wrong for that call. Any blame or praise should be for the referee who reviewed the footage.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, HertsCanary93 said:

How many times do we see Zimmerman fling himself wildly in front of shots? Blocking shots is a huge part of being a CB.

I do not for one second think he has jumped to block that with his hand. I also do not think it is an unnatural position. If you run and jump, your hands naturally come up.

It is an interesting debate and no one's opinion is wrong. I think the main point I was trying to make is that VAR itself did nothing wrong for that call. Any blame or praise should be for the referee who reviewed the footage.

I don’t really agree with that and I do.......VAR is to blame as the ref was in a good position to see the initial block and was happy to give a corner. Then the VAR team told him to take a look, so he then changed his mind, but for me like you Herts didn’t think it was intentional and certainly not unnatural. So I do blame VAR, but you’re right ultimately the ref should have stuck to his original corner.

But as Purple said he’d give it.....I wonder how he would feel if that was given against us end of next season sending us down? 😉

Edited by Indy

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I've noticed that a lot of experienced defenders -- Arsenal's Koscielny for instance -- will clasp their hands behind their back when covering against possible shots in and near the penalty area. If a player does that there is no question about his intention (it's clearly to NOT use his arm), and no question of making his body bigger. 

If I remember correctly, we had a similar, and similarly crucial, penalty awarded against Russ Martin in an away match against Man City. We were close to getting a result but the penalty did for us.

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12 minutes ago, Indy said:

Fair point Purple, I see it as an attempt to block the ball, in my opinion his arm wasn’t in an unnatural position for that jump, and there lies the issue of opinion. The defenders have the right to block so itsdown to people’s perspective of unnatural?

Indy, it probably does come down to the interpretation of what is "non-natural". Obviously if a player jumps with both arms outstretched like a starfish that is non-natural.

In this case (I have only watched a couple of times in normal speed, rather than slo-mo) that arm being where it is looks to me non-natural. And it certainly makes the player's blocking area larger.

Perhaps one defintion could be that if the arm is outside the normal body area (as was the case here), then that is non-natural. So if, for example, a player keeps their arms right by their side that is OK, or holds them in front of their body as they dive to block that is OK, because that doesn't enlarge the blocking area.

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I agree Purple, but this silhouette idea touted by The authorities only work while blocking on your feet, as soon as you jump, lunge or slide the arms naturally go up or across. So here’s my second point, if it’s a shot on target and clearly prevents a goal, then yes penalty, but if it’s a handball from a cross or shot going off target why not in indirect free kick?

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As has been said, the referee made the final decision. So it wasn't the fault of the VAR people. But among other things, VAR was introduced to cut out the wrong decisions. As far as I could see, the referee hadn't signalled anything after the incident. So if that was the case, VAR didn't alter a wrong decision. It drew the referee's attention to something he must have seen himself. SO someone other than the referee decided it needed looking at.

If this was the case then I think it is going too far. We have five officials for CL games. Yet the decision last night was initiated by a committee in a room somewhere else. And satisfaction was not the end result. Surely ManU are thanking their lucky stars but PSG will be very unhappy at the end result because, and I suspect in most people's opinion, they have been robbed.

I understand what Clattenberg has said and what the ruling may be but a game that had everything in terms of what you want to see in a football match, was probably spoiled for so many.

I want all four PL teams in the Semis but in all honesty, leaving aside the rest of the game, I think they were very, very fortunate.

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Position of the arm looks natural to me - it's down alongside his body.  Unnatural I would take as being away from the body.  I was amazed the penalty was given.  I'd say we'd have no chance whatsoever of having that one awarding in our favour if playing at Old Trafford...

 

Overall lots of fuss about Man U going through, but the first 2 goals were defensive blunders and the penalty was highly debatable.

 

I take WCC's point about defenders having their hands behind their back, which is common for a defender challenging a cross, but not easy to do when you're jumping as here.

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7 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Position of the arm looks natural to me - it's down alongside his body.  Unnatural I would take as being away from the body.  I was amazed the penalty was given.  I'd say we'd have no chance whatsoever of having that one awarding in our favour if playing at Old Trafford...

 

Overall lots of fuss about Man U going through, but the first 2 goals were defensive blunders and the penalty was highly debatable.

 

I take WCC's point about defenders having their hands behind their back, which is common for a defender challenging a cross, but not easy to do when you're jumping as here.

It is not alongside his body. It is clearly sticking a good way out.

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3 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

It is not alongside his body. It is clearly sticking a good way out.

Looks close to his body to me.  It's hard to jump without it being a certain distance from your body which is what's happened here IMO.  Have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

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2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

It is not alongside his body. It is clearly sticking a good way out.

https://goo.gl/images/tjfCj8

I’m not sure you can say it’s sticking a good way out Purple, his body is turned you try jumping and turning without that arm like that. 

Had it hit his hand from the other arm I’d agree!

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I think it boils down to this. Did the defender deliberately attempt to block the shot? If the answer is yes then it seems perfectly logical to award a penalty if the ball hits a hand. This is not the case when a ball is kicked directly at a defender who cannot get out of the way.

I think a penalty was the correct decision.

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Just seen it after reading this thread. Correct decision. He’s jumped to block the ball and the ball has traveled some distance, his arm is out by his side and it blocks the ball. 

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5 minutes ago, JF said:

Just seen it after reading this thread. Correct decision. He’s jumped to block the ball and the ball has traveled some distance, his arm is out by his side and it blocks the ball. 

That’s not the rules though as they stand!

At no point has he moved the arm to the ball! As I’ve said this will be a long debate next season. 🙂

As it stands from the International Football Association Board (Ifab) rulebook:

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.

The following must be considered:

  • The movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
  • The distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
  • The position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence

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He has moved his arm to the ball by the very fact of throwing his body in front of the shot.

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I understand why people are questioning the decision, especially with all the 'expert' ex-footballers saying it was never a penalty. However, footballers are not generally known for their great intellectual prowess so we should take their collective opinion with a healthy dose of scepticism. If you look at a freeze frame of when the ball struck his arm, you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd jumped up with his arm in a natural position and it was entirely accidental; but here context is everything. He jumped sideways towards the ball in a deliberate action and the only part of himself he was able to get in the way was his arm. This was not an accident and the referee is entirely within his rights to give a penalty. It is still down to the referee's interpretation, but it is (at worst) a marginal call and definitely not a clear error.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Indy said:

At no point has he moved the arm to the ball!

He really has. He moved his whole body, led by his arm, towards the ball. He only managed to get his arm in the way.

Edited by Petriix

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6 minutes ago, Indy said:

That’s not the rules though as they stand!

At no point has he moved the arm to the ball! As I’ve said this will be a long debate next season. 🙂

As it stands from the International Football Association Board (Ifab) rulebook:

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.

The following must be considered:

  • The movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
  • The distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
  • The position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence

New rules for champions league this season are saying if they have made their body bigger in an attempt to block it, which he did then the refs have been told to give it

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11 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

84a82e20892b477a44c5856e8fbbdeb5.thumb.jpg.e0d530e64a9d05c210191eb794e9c1ab.jpg

FIFA unveil the new look footballer for the 2020 season.

You lot really should stop nicking photos off my Facebook page !! 😉

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My initial thought was no penalty, and I still thought that after the 10th viewing but...I'm not sure what constitutes handball anymore, it's becoming like the offside rule.

Under the new laws I think anything can be handball unless the players arms are taped to his side's.

My view is VAR should make everything clearer.yet the powers that be seem to be making the laws more and more complicated and harder to interpret.

They need to make offside only if you are clearly fully in front of the last defender not off your ear is. Likewise handball should be clear deliberate hand/arm towards ball. 

 

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1 hour ago, It's Character Forming said:

Looks close to his body to me.  It's hard to jump without it being a certain distance from your body which is what's happened here IMO.  Have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

 
You're making two contrary arguments. That the arm was next to the body and that it had to be away from the body to enable the player to jump.
 
That is certainly well away from the body, and doesn't completely look like being a result of jumping, otherwise his other arm should probably be in a similar place. If anything it looks like his other arms as gone up as a protective gesture because he knows the ball is coming that way! But in any event it seems to me to fit the new Uefa interpretation that the ball was blocked by an arm in  a non-natural position.
 
Résultat de recherche d'images pour "image ball hits PSG arm penalty"

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No I'm not.  I think that photo shows my point very clearly.  His arm is relatively close to his body, and in a natural position, for someone who's jumping in mid-air.  I think it would be hard to jump like that and keep your arm closer to your body than his right arm is.

 

His other arm does fit all the tests for a penalty it seems to me - it's in an unnatural position away from his body.  But of course the ball didn't hit that arm, so it's irrelevant.

 

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3 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

No I'm not.  I think that photo shows my point very clearly.  His arm is relatively close to his body, and in a natural position, for someone who's jumping in mid-air.  I think it would be hard to jump like that and keep your arm closer to your body than his right arm is.

 

His other arm does fit all the tests for a penalty it seems to me - it's in an unnatural position away from his body.  But of course the ball didn't hit that arm, so it's irrelevant.

 

I think the position of the arm is totally irrelevant. He has jumped to block the ball and therefore risks it hitting his hand. This is not a case of being inadvertently struck by the ball.

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