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O/T Chelsea Keeper refuses to be Substituted

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6 minutes ago, kick it off said:

After all that drama and Kepa refusing to come off, thoroughly humiliating Sarri, you think Sarri was going to have a do over and have it happen again?

Yes....if he's the manager....and he believes it was the right thing to do before the shootout?!

.....but again the distinction needs to be made between whether he wanted to make that substitution because he thought Kepa was injured ( which it was subsequently established that he wasnt) ....or because it was tactical as he wanted Caballero in goal for the penalties......I dont think we can know for definite?

Edited by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

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14 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Yes....if he's the manager....and he believes it was the right thing to do before the shootout?!

.....but again the distinction needs to be made between whether he wanted to make that substitution because he thought Kepa was injured ( which it was subsequently established that he wasnt) ....or because it was tactical as he wanted Caballero in goal for the penalties......I dont think we can know for definite?

Obviously not conclusive but the pundits all seem in agreement that there was no misunderstanding and Sarri wanted to make the change knowing all facts about the ‘injury’.

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If the substitute is ready to come on and the player being substituted doesn't leave, couldn't the ref. issue a yellow card for time wasting and then another yellow for still time wasting ?

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6 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

In Kepa's defence, what was the message coming from the bench as to why he was being substituted?....was it because they belived Caballero would be better in the penalty shootout or was it because they believed him to be injured?, if it was the latter and Kepa wasn't injured then he'd have every right to protest not to come off?

 

Are you off your ****, GJL?

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4 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

 

Are you off your ****, GJL?

Well you seem to know the answer?...

So which was it ?.....because at no stage has anybody at Chelsea said it was for tactical reasons, the only people who have suggested that are pundits,commentators and fans who are only guessing?

....are you saying that both Sarri and Kepa are lying in their post match comments?

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36 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

are you saying that both Sarri and Kepa are lying in their post match comments?

Yes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47352352

Its all over the media (unless they’ve all misunderstood too)....it’s not even being debated, the  only question is what happens next? Though quite obviously it’ll be Sarri that takes the fall.

Edited by Fiery Zac

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It did remind me of when Aaron's got substituted earlier this season because someone wrote the wrong number on the paper they give the 4th official.

But in that circumstance he had to go off apparently even though we realised the mistake, so I guess there must be different rules in the championship...

 

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15 minutes ago, glory.win or die. said:

It did remind me of when Aaron's got substituted earlier this season because someone wrote the wrong number on the paper they give the 4th official.

But in that circumstance he had to go off apparently even though we realised the mistake, so I guess there must be different rules in the championship...

 

Good point, though I think it was Lewis. Luckily it didn’t affect the result.

Surely the same rules should apply and that once the piece of paper is handed in, the substitution has to take place

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If Sarri had told the 4th official about the substitution, and the board had been held to signify the change, then all Sarri has to do, is stand there, stony faced, waiting for  the player to get off the field, and he would have won the 'battle' and still have been the 'boss'. The Ref would lose patience with the player, and as K Lo hinted at, the Ref has powers to deal with that.

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Nothing but a farce. We have technology that can tell whether the ball has crossede the goal line. We have VAR which supposed to settle all arguments and opinions about crucial aspects of the game. We have physios miked up like they are in a war zone.

And yet nobody had the common sense to tell Kepa to walk over to the touchline and explain to his manager that he was OK to carry on. Then the manager could have told him what he wanted to do.

The beautiful game is being soured year after year by greed, stupidity and unwarranted opinion.

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According to Dermot Gallagher on SSN “ref watch” the ref doesn’t have any ability to force a player off, even when the number is raised.

I think the difference with Aarons was that he left the field of play, and so couldn’t come “back” on as the sub had already, by the letter of the law, happened. Had he stood there unprofessionally telling Farke he wasn’t tired, and refusing to come off, then he might have played the full 90....

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On 25/02/2019 at 07:17, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Well you seem to know the answer?...

So which was it ?.....because at no stage has anybody at Chelsea said it was for tactical reasons, the only people who have suggested that are pundits,commentators and fans who are only guessing?

....are you saying that both Sarri and Kepa are lying in their post match comments?

The point is that it’s absolutely irrelevant what reason the manager had for wanting to make a substitution - if he says ‘you’re coming off’, then you come off, simple as that, it is not up for debate from the player. The player does not have the authority to protest this and undermine the managers decision, and that’s why I think your comment of ‘the player has every right to protest’ was mad.

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4 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

The point is that it’s absolutely irrelevant what reason the manager had for wanting to make a substitution - if he says ‘you’re coming off’, then you come off, simple as that, it is not up for debate from the player. The player does not have the authority to protest this and undermine the managers decision, and that’s why I think your comment of ‘the player has every right to protest’ was mad.

....but surely the context surrounding the impending substitution needs to be known?....if the message from the bench was that we want to take you off because you're injured, when he didnt believe he was, then of course he's going to protest?....who on earth wouldn't?, especially in a cup final??

....if however the the message was, we're bringing you off because , for the good of the club, we believe the sub keeper will give us a better chance to win the cup in a penalty shootout ...and he refuses, then that's a very different matter.

Edited by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

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29 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

....but surely the context surrounding the impending substitution needs to be known?....if the message from the bench was that we want to take you off because you're injured, when he didnt believe he was, then of course he's going to protest?....who on earth wouldn't?, especially in a cup final??

....if however the the message was, we're bringing you off because , for the good of the club, we believe the sub keeper will give us a better chance to win the cup in a penalty shootout ...and he refuses, then that's a very different matter.

It was a very different matter. Evidenced by Sarri's rage, Kepa's wink, Kepa being fined a weeks wages and Kepa publically apologising. Are u accepting the obvious now or are you determined that you are going to die on this hill despite the ridicule of the injury story from every side?

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1 hour ago, kick it off said:

It was a very different matter. Evidenced by Sarri's rage, Kepa's wink, Kepa being fined a weeks wages and Kepa publically apologising. Are u accepting the obvious now or are you determined that you are going to die on this hill despite the ridicule of the injury story from every side?

Nobody from Chelsea has actually come out and said that they wanted to make the substitution for 'tactical' reasons?

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1 minute ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Nobody from Chelsea has actually come out and said that they wanted to make the substitution for 'tactical' reasons?

Get real, why would they admit an even bigger embarrassment than a misunderstanding. Just because no one admits something, doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. As you well know, or should do if you are over twelve years of age.

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4 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Nobody from Chelsea has actually come out and said that they wanted to make the substitution for 'tactical' reasons?

Theyre hardly likely to after that transparent cover story are they? Do you think theyre going to come out now and say they lied? Do you believe everything youre told without being able to examine evidence objectively? Youre literally the only person in the world who believes the injury story.

If it was not tactical then why has he had to apologise for the 'misunderstanding'? Why has he been fined a weeks wages?

Jesus christ.

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9 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Theyre hardly likely to after that transparent cover story are they? Do you think theyre going to come out now and say they lied? Do you believe everything youre told without being able to examine evidence objectively? Youre literally the only person in the world who believes the injury story.

If it was not tactical then why has he had to apologise for the 'misunderstanding'? Why has he been fined a weeks wages?

Jesus christ.

True KIO. I find it hard to believe that anyone could seriously  argue otherwise.

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I'm not suggesting he should have disobeyed the substitution.....I'm disputing the reasons as to why HE himself perceived the substitution was being made....which is something you appear unable to grasp.

If I need to repeat myself again, and it appears I do, if the message coming from the bench was that they wanted to take him off because he was injured...and he wasnt, or he at least didnt believe he was, then of course he would protest...and it his is right to protest that I'm defending

It was only a couple of seasons ago that mandatory substitutions were brought in for concussion, prior to that there were many examples of players involved in head collisions or even being knocked out, who would protest that they were ok to carry on and even over rule physios advice and remain on the pitch

Edited by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

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I dont know why youre repeating yourself. We understand your point, its just that your point flies in the face of logic and reason. There was no misunderstanding. He was not being taken off for injury reasons with 90 seconds left. Common sense should tell you that. If common sense doesnt then his wink to the camera at full time should. The injury story is obviously a cover to save face for Sarri. Its laughable that anybody would buy it tbf.

Edited by kick it off

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Youre guessing that, you dont know that ,nor do I.....we only saw Cabellero come to the touchline when Kepa was down injured receiving treatment, not before.

  You wouldnt want an injured keeper in goal for a penalty shootout.

We all know Caballero record at pens, which is why people are putting 2 and 2 together..but who's to say Kepa wouldnt have been their preferred choice had he not gone down injured?.....anything else is guesswork

Edited by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

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2 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Youre guessing that, you dont know that ,nor do I.....we only saw Cabellero come to the touchline when Kepa was down injured receiving treatment, not before.

  You wouldnt want an injured keeper in goal for a penalty shootout.

We all know Caballero record at pens, which is why people are putting 2 and 2 together..but who's to say Kepa wouldnt have been their preferred choice had he not gone down injured?.....anything else is guesswork

Yeah, OK. That's why Sarri is considering dropping him for Spurs, he's paid a weeks wages in fines and he has publically apologised. Bit extreme for a "misunderstanding" in the opinion of 99.9% of people but obviously you think that is in line with a reasonable response.

Kepa - 4 saves on 17 penalties - 23.5% saved (against 4 no names, 2 in lower tier football) - 10 of the conceded 13 in lower tier or youth international football

Caballero - 11 saves on 38 spot kicks - 28.9% (all in top tier competitionincluding  Champs league - saves from Cristiano Ronaldo, Neymar, Mahrez, Falcao, Hazard amongst them) - 2 of the conceded against lower tier opposition.

Yeah. It was definitely the cramp that did it. Not the fact that Caballero spent a couple of years facing these players on a daily basis in training, and has a fantastic penalty record in the top echelons of football whilst Kepa has a worse one, against poorer opposition and no experience of top flight shoot outs.

Edited by kick it off

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1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Youre guessing that, you dont know that ,nor do I.....we only saw Cabellero come to the touchline when Kepa was down injured receiving treatment, not before.

  You wouldnt want an injured keeper in goal for a penalty shootout.

We all know Caballero record at pens, which is why people are putting 2 and 2 together..but who's to say Kepa wouldnt have been their preferred choice had he not gone down injured?.....anything else is guesswork

Presumably, if it was indeed just a misunderstanding, he’ll be appealing his fine? Or taking the club to court/an employment tribunal about it? If my employer docked me a weeks’ wages because my boss misunderstood something, I wouldn’t be very happy about it....

The secondary point that you made earlier  that, if it wasn’t a misunderstanding, Sarri should have done more to drag him off is sort of the point.

Pretty much everyone is saying that (a) it was hugely disrespectful from the player to outright refuse to do as the manager suggested - regardless of the reasons - and (b) it shows that Sarri’s position as manager is extremely weak at the moment because clearly the players - or the keeper in any event - don’t respect him. Can you imagine a Man Utd player telling Ferguson he wasn’t coming off. The player would have been out of the club before the start of the next week. That Sarri doesn’t command enough respect for his players to come off the pitch when he wants to substitute them reflects badly on the manager undoubtedly. But the player is a professional and simply cannot refuse to obey the manager. That’s the point.

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Has anybody mentioned the fact that Caballero played for Man City and would have known their players better? That was probably the real reason for the attempted sub.

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2 minutes ago, Herman said:

Has anybody mentioned the fact that Caballero played for Man City and would have known their players better? That was probably the real reason for the attempted sub.

I have.... (now that I edited my last post to include this salient point 😉 )

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1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Presumably, if it was indeed just a misunderstanding, he’ll be appealing his fine? Or taking the club to court/an employment tribunal about it? If my employer docked me a weeks’ wages because my boss misunderstood something, I wouldn’t be very happy about it....

The secondary point that you made earlier  that, if it wasn’t a misunderstanding, Sarri should have done more to drag him off is sort of the point.

Pretty much everyone is saying that (a) it was hugely disrespectful from the player to outright refuse to do as the manager suggested - regardless of the reasons - and (b) it shows that Sarri’s position as manager is extremely weak at the moment because clearly the players - or the keeper in any event - don’t respect him. Can you imagine a Man Utd player telling Ferguson he wasn’t coming off. The player would have been out of the club before the start of the next week. That Sarri doesn’t command enough respect for his players to come off the pitch when he wants to substitute them reflects badly on the manager undoubtedly. But the player is a professional and simply cannot refuse to obey the manager. That’s the point.

So when Kepa was waving his finger at the bench , what do you think he was signifying?

a) I know you want me to come off because you think I'm injured....but I'm not and ok to carry on

b) I know you want to me to come off for Cabellero because you think he's better than me in a penalty situation....but I'm going to ignore that, and point blank refuse to come off.

It can only be one of the above....but each has very different connotations.

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7 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

So when Kepa was waving his finger at the bench , what do you think he was signifying?

a) I know you want me to come off because you think I'm injured....but I'm not and ok to carry on

b) I know you want to me to come off for Cabellero because you think he's better than me in a penalty situation....but I'm going to ignore that, and point blank refuse to come off.

It can only be one of the above....but each has very different connotations.

c) I know I said I was injured, and I know you want caballero on for the pens but I'm going to pretend that I don't understand and insist that I'm fine, continuing this charade until the final whistle at which time I know I cannot be substituted. I'll apologize later .oh and bung them a few quid that I can comfortably afford.

Edited by wcorkcanary

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3 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

c) I know I said I was injured, and I know you want caballero on for the pens but I'm going to pretend that I don't understand and insist that I'm fine, continuing this charade until the final whistle at which time I know I cannot be substituted. I'll apologize later .oh and bing them a few quid that I can comfortably afford.

So you think he was able to fool the physios too then?....in that case Sarri should be sacking that physio, if he too was able to be duped?

Edited by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

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2 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

So you think he was able to fool the physios too then?....in that case Sarri should be sacking that physio, if he too was able to be duped?

I doubt that it is too difficult for a pro footballer to recall a previous injury and replicate the symptoms if required. Any way , I'm off to bed .  G' night.

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