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Trent Canary

What happens it we get a new manager, and things dont improve?

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Longish post coming up.. (Id already writ it once but my computer crashed, and i cant remember half of what I wrote grr) Anyway, I think id have placed myself in the middle of the Worthy in/out campaign, giving him a fair amount of time at first based on a past record of relative success in the division, then calling for his head around november. But I still seem to be one of the few people that are pretty angry at how the players are going about their business.. The fact is worthy has made many mistakes this season, poor tactics, wrong transfers, poor subs etc. But that doesnt excuse the fact that when the players go out onto the pitch, where Worthy can play no real part, we have been awful! I mean a group of players such as this shouldnt need managing to beat the likes of MIllwall and Coventry! And one of the most telling things is this - On the pinkun board we always discuss what line-ups we should use for the upcoming game, on the occasions when Worthy picks a team that we think should be used, and makes the changes that the fans want, we STILL lose! And at that point you have to wonder, if we cant win with what appears to be our best team out, a team that on paper (Yes I know, hardly accurate) is one of the best in the league, then whos fault is it? Are we really just not that good? Can one man drag a team so far down? Did we just horrendously over-achieve two seasons back?

Our poor form could be down to one of many reasons... Not playing for Worthy, not playing for each other, poor tactics, losing habit etc. If they arent playing for worthy or they dislike him then change him and get someone else in (Although the players are very unprofessional if thats the case) If they just arent playing for each other, then I dont see what a new manager can do. Say we bring someone new in, you might expect a quick upshot in form, players trying to impress the new man, but if we dont improve and get in the top half by the end of the season, will people still say its worthys fault? Or will we be asking the players whether or not they have been earning their large pay cheques.

To be honest I do think we would get better with a change in management. Although a lot would depend on who the new man is. If we could get someone in that would tell the players their positions are under threat, and that if there is no commitment they will be dropped for academy players than I think we would have a fired-up norwich team, playing to their potential.

As stated, im supporting a change, the mood of the club isnt great, and it doesnt appear to be changing. But I just wish to put it to everyone, if we get a new manager, and are still poor, what then??

(I had a few other points to make, but ive forgotten what they were, and I have to skip along to a lecture. Would love to hear people''s opinions.)

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If we have the "it could be even worse" attitude though we''ll never move forward as a club. Also, to be absolutely honest, how much worse could it get?  We''re already putting in inept performances week in week out.  Doesn''t get much worse than that

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Yours is the same kind of arguement as those who said ''don''t buy Ashton for all that money, he might break his leg in the first game''.

Unfortunatly Trent, there are no guarentees in life, a new manager might well be pants, in fact just like the one we already have!.

But we must take that risk, failure to act now would be irresponsible don''t you think?.

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Tactical deployment of resources cannot be understated.  Ashton is not a target man or wing man just as much as henderson is not a midfielder - eventually those sort of decisions come back to haunt you as players become demotivated as they fail to deliver their potential on the field and results get worse.   The squad and how it is used is one persons only - and that person told us at the start of the season the squad was good enough and he wanted no one else - we are now 5 loanees in and still things are no better.    

As you say the squad on paper is not the worst in the league and when you see how other teams have played there is not one team who you think yes they deserve to be top of the league - or even above us.  The managers job is to get the best out of this squad and Worthy, IMO, is failing to do this is spectacular fashion.  Our defence is good enough, our strikers good enough, our midfield could be better but then so could just about every champs teams - find one squad where you think that is a top midfield - its not easy.  However their midfield personnel has options and is delivering - ours is not. 

The hope (and for all the WOB that is all it is) is that a new manager will be able to maximise the potential of this squad by using a formation and adopting a style of play that gets the best out of individuals, gets them playing as a team so they become greater than their individual components.   That is not usually a quick fix and so there will be ups and downs.   There is a significant chance that any new manager is unable to effect any improvement at all.  But there is a possibility he will.   The worst scenario is that we have to change the manager again or even repeatedly as it is costly unsettling and always always always counter productive. Fortunately that is not this boards approach - they do give managers time to build their own team so the risk of a quick succession of managers is minimised.

That is why for so long I was with the keep him opinion - changing managers is risky.   Worthy & ashtons admission that the players are no longer following his instructions together with a lack of team spirit & committment,  tell me his time is up, that he cannot change the situation(!) and so dismissing him is the only way forward for my club.    

OTBC      

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It''s a good point Trent and one I made earlier in the season, what if things don''t get better with a new manager?  I think however I am past the point of worrying about that and I am now more concerned by the question of, What will happen if we continue on our current path?

At the moment we are serious danger of ruining all the good work done by the board, Worthy, players and the fans in the last few years.  We are in danger of going full circle and ending up where we started from and having to do all the hard work all over again.  The financial ramifications of failing to return to the Premiership within the next season and a half are serious.  The club have already told us of the gamble they made on getting us promoted and that failure to do so would have led to player sales.  If we are not promoted by the time the parachute payments finish then be on look out for the "Carrow Road Car Boot Sale".  Ashton will be gone, Green will be gone, in fact anyone of any value will be gone but on the cheap to clubs picking our bones.  Huckerby will be sold, whether he wants to leave or not because the club will simply not be able to pay his wages. 

Of course Worthy could stay, he could turn things round, he could get us promoted and most us will have to eat our words and apologise.  Can anyone seriously see that happening though?  During the Derby game I saw nothing that leads me to believe that things are going to change for the better.  They was no glimmer of hope that we have even the slightest chance of turning it round. 

Worthington appears bereft of idea''s and is distancing himself from the players more and more.  All this after he asked for "unity" a week or so back.  He is losing the plot and losing control of the players.  If they won’t do as he asks then we should get a manager the players will listen to.

 

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[quote user="1st Wizard"]

Yours is the same kind of arguement as those who said ''don''t buy Ashton for all that money, he might break his leg in the first game''.

Unfortunatly Trent, there are no guarentees in life, a new manager might well be pants, in fact just like the one we already have!.

But we must take that risk, failure to act now would be irresponsible don''t you think?.

[/quote]

"As stated, im supporting a change" ...

I DO support a change...

Ill reply at length to people in a bit, tad busy right now!

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Two excellent replies from IMO two of the most constructive posters on this Board (Saint and Zipper).

Unfortunately of course we  have a Board bereft of the ability (or willingness) to make an ''objective'' assessment. They absolutely wallow in emotional nostalgia as far as ''Nigel, Doug and Steve'' are concerned. They are terrified of having to go through the process of getting a new manager in becuase of the very factor that Trent rightly identified i..e that it MAY not work. They MUST finally take their collective heads out of the sand and act. OK so a new manager might not make an improvement but it can''t get worse can it? In any event, the fans will be pleased that the Board have finally had the courage to act.

What they must NOT do though (IMO) is go for the cheap option (like last time) and promote from within. I see no justification in that whatsoever as Foley and Livermore are both tainted with the current decline. All 3 should be removed and David Williams put in temporary charge.  

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Another quick one..

Think the main point of my post was not whether to change the manager, his departure is a case of When Not If. More that we should be just as angry at the players.

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You only have to at the difference Stuart Pearce made to Man City when he took over from Keegan. Same players, but they respected him and he made them look like a totally different team.

I''m sure there are countless examples like this. Although there are probably countless examples where changing the manger has also gone horribly wrong!

I just cannot see how much longer Worthy can carry on; the majority of the fans are against him and the players aren''t playing for him. It must result in a pretty miserable existence.

 

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This is a hugely important thread and one full of good postings. Of course there is no guarantee that a new manager will be able to turn things around in time to avoid the unthinkable but please god may the Board have the brains and courage to appoint someone who we can have confidence in and who can reasonably be expected to get us out of the excrement we find ourselves in. I hope the Board will not (or hopefully are not at this very moment) consider some of the names being put forward, particularly some of our former players who don''t have one jot of a proven successful management record on their CV. They might be successful if given a chance but where''s the evidence they can do so. No, it must be someone with a proven track record. My nervousness is twofold. Firstly, ''prudence'' may well outweigh ''ambition'' in their selection and we will end up with the cheapest option. Secondly with the blind faith they have in the present incumbent that he will turn things around based on goodness knows what evidence just how qualified are they to make the right choice.      

 

 

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I don''t see a new manager giving us a problem - many team

underperforming get a boost under a new manger, just as worthy did for

us. The team is mainly comprised of good players, and requires a

manager proven to get quality players playing to their ability or above.

Worthy did an excellent job coaxing decent/average players playing

above themselves, but unfortunately he has been unable to work with

quality players to the same effect - they obviously don''t respond to

his management style - paul sturrock admitted the same when he was at

Southampton. Where the saints went wrong was appointing an

inexperienced coach in house, wriggly or whatever his name was, who

wasn''t upto the job - if redknap had been appointed sooner, the saints

would still be in the prem.

A change is obviosuly required now and with the right experince and track record we will progress for sure.

 .

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Another point to consider though is what happens to the results while we arse about looking for the new manager? Would they improve while the club is in limbo? I think that as fans none of us can really have a completely unbiased and logical take on this whole mess, though most of the posts on this particular thread are calmer and make more sense than some recently. It''s in the hands of the board and nobody else, that is what seems to be frustrating so many people.  

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Ok, where to begin?

DDIM - As I said in the post I think he should go. But any good business should still consider best/worst case scenarios, and I believe that if the players have the same commitment under a new man as they do now, we cant really improve that much.

wiz - As mentioned, I advocate a new manager. So I agree, we should take that risk. But again, the point of my post is that if the players arent playing and putting in the effort, it doesnt matter whos in charge.

ZLF - Agreed entirely. As stated I believe worthy has had some tactical errors, as well as buying players that we dont need when we could be getting in a decent winger. Again as I mentioned in the first post hopefully we can get a new man who will be tough on the players and will accept no slacking. The threat of a spell on the subs bench should sort those players out you would hope. And a top quote from your post "The worst scenario is that we have to change the manager again or even repeatedly as it is costly unsettling and always always always counter productive. Fortunately that is not this boards approach - they do give managers time to build their own team so the risk of a quick succession of managers is minimised.

That is why for so long I was with the keep him opinion - changing managers is risky.  "

The lesson here is, please pick the right man to get the best out of the team!

Barry - "Firstly, ''prudence'' may well outweigh ''ambition'' in their selection and we will end up with the cheapest option" Good point. Lets hope we dont carry on with the "Little norwich" routine that so infuriated me last season. Go for a big name for gawds sake!

Paul rankin - again as i said, I support a sacking..

Lucky green trainers - Agreed. You would have thought there would be an initial boost to the players with a new management, they would want to try their best to impress a new man. Im just worried that the problems in our dressing room are far too deep to rectify any time soon. I really hope not.

Anyway, i think the main thrust of my arguement is about the players, and my anger at their lack of effort. A few of the replies have been focused on worthy, but he isnt the real issue in my post. Its more about the application and effort, or lack of, from the players. Something no manager can really do much about.

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Whatever we do involves risk, and the future is unknowable!

All we can say is that the present is very threatening. Our

recent  past record is not good, despite spending a lot of money.

Elesewhere on the board someone has calculated that we have been

winning about one game in five, or approximately 9 a season. That is

relegation form! We have lost recently to some very poor teams, and

supporters have remarked on the rank bad performances.

Under Worthington, if the problems he knows and those we can see, were

quickly sorted out, then we could rise up the table. But given the size

and quality of the squad the pre-season status as favourites was a

massive misjudgement. The team and tactics are not good enough. Things

could get worse. If the few good players we have were enticed away,

even with a little money to spend would we be able to sign good players

to replace them? This looks like a slide towards Division1.

Could things be worse under new management? Yes, they could, but

probably some new thinking, threats to under-performing players, and

supporters with lusty optimism would probably produce a "honeymoon"

period sufficient to avoid relegation. The better players could be

persuaded to stop. After that, much would depend on the new manager and

the support staff, some of which he will have appointed. At the

Championship level reasonable success can be achieved by a good manager

even if he has little to spend, - our possible scenario.

No manager could guarantee us Premiership football quickly, -

Worthington or anyone else. Many of us feel that having observed

management style over the past season and a half, real failure does

seem to be a genuine prospect. Judicious selection of a new manager

would increase the prospect of safety and success.

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For me, if players are underperforming it comes down to the manager.

IMO worthy has a problem relating to quality players, last season and

this. With a new manager with the right experince, the players would

play to their abilty and city would be doing better again - no problem.

Any dressing room can be turned around with the right manager in

charge, however lacking in confidence they are, especially if its a

team with good players in a average league.

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