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The Great Mass Debater

“I don’t want to praise Jordan Rhodes too much…but he’s the most special, unique guy I’ve worked with,”

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7 minutes ago, king canary said:

It sounds harsher than it is but at Premier League level Rhodes best Norwich comparison is Ricky Van Wolfswinkle- essentially a penalty box predator who thrives on chances being made for him. Very few teams in the bottom half of the Premier League can carry someone like that.

I was going to make the same comparison myself. Ricky has shown when he is at a big club in a league he can score plenty as he is a very good poacher. The problem is when you aren’t in the position to create the opportunities for a poacher to poach. 

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No, but if we were in the prem surely Rhodes would only be used as an 'option' when we need a goal in latter stages of the game? Which is pretty much all he's used for now. And at that point in a game we wouldn't exactly need to be worrying about 'carrying' him.

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16 minutes ago, hogesar said:

No, but if we were in the prem surely Rhodes would only be used as an 'option' when we need a goal in latter stages of the game? Which is pretty much all he's used for now. And at that point in a game we wouldn't exactly need to be worrying about 'carrying' him.

I guess it then comes down to do we spend £xm and £40k a week on a 29 year old striker who we don't see as anything more than a bench option? Or is that money better spend going after a Neal Maupey or Jarrod Bowen?

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

I guess it then comes down to do we spend £xm and £40k a week on a 29 year old striker who we don't see as anything more than a bench option? Or is that money better spend going after a Neal Maupey or Jarrod Bowen?

Yeah, thats a more relevant argument. The discussion so far in this thread has, generally, taken him from being championship sub to premier league starter.

Which is why as you say it'll all come down to finances. Even if Wednesday do want him to move on, he's going to have a long line of championship clubs willing to pay a few mill to have him in their team. On that basis, I deem it unlikely.

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7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, thats a more relevant argument. The discussion so far in this thread has, generally, taken him from being championship sub to premier league starter.

Which is why as you say it'll all come down to finances. Even if Wednesday do want him to move on, he's going to have a long line of championship clubs willing to pay a few mill to have him in their team. On that basis, I deem it unlikely.

I just don't see him as a Premier League player when it comes down to it. He's done well for us as a sub at this level and if Pukki (god forbid) picked up a knock I'd not be overly concerned about him replacing him. But if I was a team in the Premier League he'd be nowhere near the top of my list of striker targets.

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Is he really that expensive that if were to get promoted he wouldn't be worth having precisely to have the same impact he currently does?

If he scores or helps create half a dozen goals as an impact sub it may be the difference between staying up and relegation.

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22 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Is he really that expensive that if were to get promoted he wouldn't be worth having precisely to have the same impact he currently does?

If he scores or helps create half a dozen goals as an impact sub it may be the difference between staying up and relegation.

Yes, he is. 

He’s reportedly on £30k - £40k a week now and I doubt he’d jump at a pay cut. Sheff Wed will want a fee as they could probably get another loan fee for him like the one Norwich paid. Also, at 29 any money Norwich put into him isn’t going to be seen again. 

Better to spend on a younger player who could potentially overtake Pukki as first choice striker - even if it means spending more, but potentially being able to recoup more. Last thing Norwich should do, if promoted, is load the club up with more long term, expensive contracts for aging players with little to zero resale potential. Basically no more Naismiths. 

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Farke's excessive praise of the player has resonated with me. It puts even Lambert's current bull shine down the road to shame and there was no agenda behind it either.

Farke and Webber seem at one in assessing the player's person as being an important factor, along with his general ability on the pitch when taking him on board. It is part of the "system."

Who can assess the importance of this behind our current success? The squad seem as one and this is verified by DF's comments about the badge on the front of the shirt recently. Olly didn't last long did he? Perhaps one or two others have been discarded because of 'attitude. Pritchard?

If we do go up it will be even more decisive.

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23 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Yes, he is. 

He’s reportedly on £30k - £40k a week now and I doubt he’d jump at a pay cut. Sheff Wed will want a fee as they could probably get another loan fee for him like the one Norwich paid. Also, at 29 any money Norwich put into him isn’t going to be seen again. 

Better to spend on a younger player who could potentially overtake Pukki as first choice striker - even if it means spending more, but potentially being able to recoup more. Last thing Norwich should do, if promoted, is load the club up with more long term, expensive contracts for aging players with little to zero resale potential. Basically no more Naismiths. 

Disagree. Trying to find a player to overtake Pukki would be a gamble at anything below about £30m. I think we're more likely to gamble on one or two cheapies (a la Buendia).

I think you're unfair in comparing him to Naismith or RvW.  I think he's got the right stuff in terms of attitude - he buys completely into Farkeball & the team ethic we have & there is a class player in there.

Wednesday's demands might scupper any possibility but who knows what he might accept for a (last) crack at the Premiership? Perhaps we could offer him lower wages but a big bonus if we survive. And his lack of pace may give him greater longevity than a speed machine.

And as Monty says, if he chips in with half a dozen goals or assists he could be worth his weight in gold.

 

 

Edited by ron obvious

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28 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Disagree. Trying to find a player to overtake Pukki would be a gamble at anything below about £30m. I think we're more likely to gamble on one or two cheapies (a la Buendia).

I think you're unfair in comparing him to Naismith or RvW.  I think he's got the right stuff in terms of attitude - he buys completely into Farkeball & the team ethic we have & there is a class player in there.

Wednesday's demands might scupper any possibility but who knows what he might accept for a (last) crack at the Premiership? Perhaps we could offer him lower wages but a big bonus if we survive. And his lack of pace may give him greater longevity than a speed machine.

And as Monty says, if he chips in with half a dozen goals or assists he could be worth his weight in gold.

 

 

I don’t compare him to Naismith in terms of play style or attitude, just in terms of having an older player on a long, expensive contract. RvW was a flop at Norwich, but as he was still young the club actually recouped a lot of the money spent on him as he still had some value. 

Also, when I say a young player to replace Pukki, I don’t mean from straight away, but someone who is early 20s and can develop while at the club. 

Looking at his career to date, it seems Rhodes has probably already peaked in his ability and while a perfectly decent Championship striker, I think spending cash on him as he has good character and Farke likes him would be a mistake. If he wasn’t on loan at the club no one would be talking about him as a potential permanent should the club be promoted. The opportunity cost of every signing needs to be considered. I think that is the real test judging whether to bring him in or not. 

I’d much rather Webber use the money it would require in getting Rhodes to gamble on some other ‘Buendias’  

 

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Personally I disagree. If we're only going to play one striker, like most teams do, having someone with the right attitude in the squad is essential. Mr Oliveira has shown how not to do it. Jordan has proved a good option from the bench and more than adequate stand in or rotation for Pukki. Pukki has been on fire this season but Rhodes was probably considered the main striker at the start of the season. 

Rhodes, unlike RvW is well adapted to the English game and I dont think he can be written off at the top level. He's certainly less of a gamble than an expensive foreign player untried in England. Our current lot, Stiepermann in particular have shown that maybe you need a season to adapt if you're from a foreign league.

I think there is very much a place for Jordan in our squad next year, in either division

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Worth noting that Rhodes hasn't actually hit double figures in the Championship since the 15/16 season.

You can't pay the kind of wages he'd be after just because he's a nice guy and works hard in training.

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So that's Rhodes, what about Pukki? Who's the closest player skill set wise to Pukki - we surely can't rely on him going a whole season without picking up an injury....

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At this level, the general consensus is that he's a good operator. 

On a personal level, it comes across that he is a very upbeat character, charismatic, and very good-natured regarding having finished up getting less game time than he might have expected given Pukki's surprise impact. 

It seems strongly implicit that his unselfish attitude has had a spillover effect in other players that might have hoped to be getting more game time being more patient, keeping overall morale higher. 

That's the way I've interpreted it and I think morale had been a big factor in us punching well above expectations, in which case he's well worth having and at least deserves a chance at having a go in the prem if we get there. 

Edited by littleyellowbirdie
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I think that 9 mil is the promotion bonuses and clauses in existing purchases. I can remember reading at the time from someone who has had contacts before, that the main reason JR came in as late as he did was that we were negotiating out of a commitment to buy him if we got promoted...

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I like Rhodes... alot... but he's not going to get 10 goals in the Premiership, unless he has quality around him... so if our midfield dynamos are able to step up, then he'll be a threat, just purely because he knows where the goal is.

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On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 16:33, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Yes, he is. 

He’s reportedly on £30k - £40k a week now and I doubt he’d jump at a pay cut. Sheff Wed will want a fee as they could probably get another loan fee for him like the one Norwich paid. Also, at 29 any money Norwich put into him isn’t going to be seen again. 

Better to spend on a younger player who could potentially overtake Pukki as first choice striker - even if it means spending more, but potentially being able to recoup more. Last thing Norwich should do, if promoted, is load the club up with more long term, expensive contracts for aging players with little to zero resale potential. Basically no more Naismiths. 

I don't think its fair to compare the situation to Naismith's, we have Jordan in the squad now, his value and fit can be assessed now, he isn't so much of a risk. I do agree and I don't think we should be locking him down in a 4-5 year contract on those touted wages.

We offer what we are prepared to and it's up to him, nobody else seems likely to give a Premier League chance again, this might be his last shot. 2-3 year deal with a relegation wage drop. Same to Sheffield Weds over fee and see what their resolve is like and what other interest looks like, I doubt they will recoup more than 2 mil on him this window. We know from experience as well if a player really wants to go to a club in the PL its going to happen.

I'm not convinced based on his record the last few seasons anyone's going to be quite so willing to gamble 30K+ week on him in the Championship either.

However our being in the PL is a totally different beast and if we can afford to have someone of Jordan's calibre as a back-up/impact player I would be very tempted over spending the money for the future when we need to stay up that first season. Lets be honest we need both if we go up, a backup for Pukki now and an unproven potential replacement. Nelson's out the door, Morris is no where near PL quality based on evidence, ditto Srbeny who may be worth keeping as 4th choice, no more realistically. That means we need at least two permanent strikers.

Edited by Monty13

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The fact that Jordan Rhodes took a pay cut to come on loan to us makes me think he'd probably take one to sign a 3 year deal. |Of course that's a long way away, can't see it happening unless we're promoted.

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