the 10 year cycle

[Cheerio 0]

or 5, or 7, or 15...... really, when was it any different? I''ve been

going for 40 years, Lots of ups, lots of downs and at times seemingly

endless periods of somewhere in between.

I seriously think the people panicing are younger short term fans or

those with short memories. How dull was it under Saunders, Bond,

Machin, Megson, the Irish scummer et al. good or bad they come and go,

what would football be if it didn''t give us something to moan about?

Nobody knows, cos every team has ups and downs, so stop wetting your pants

[0Amarillo<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>ddMMyyyy0Falseen-US<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>True 0]

All very true. I also look at other clubs at the moment to gauge what''s going on here, and to get some perspective. At the moment, fans of Newcastle, Birmingham, Sunderland, Villa are all calling for the head of their manager saying "he''s taken the club as far as he can" etc etc. You get the feeling that the managerial merry-go-round is only just starting up with the sacking of Perrin. They''ll all change. Some will be better off, some not. Had they not changed, some would improve, others not. The manager of Doncaster is top dog at the moment and I''ve heard some commentators say "he wouldn''t look out of place in the Prem"... and yet Donny are 9th in the Conference or something.

I''m becoming more and more convinced that the manager''s role in the success of the team/club is a lot less than people think. It''s still big, but not as big as people think. The performance of my staff at work has more to do with their own skill and motivation than it does my managerial skills. Sure, I have a role, but it''s really down to them, they''re the experts in their respective fields.

Has Warnock suddenly become a good manager after 6 years of mid-table averageness at Sheff Utd? I''d say probably that the players have got the bit between their teeth, are on a roll, and are fired up now that they can see a chance of promotion. Whereas our players still think they''re too good for this league and aren''t giving 100%.

It''s funny how in-demand Burley is now. People say "he''s really a good manager". But most Ipswich fans couldn''t wait to ditch him when they came down saying he''d taken the club as far as he could. They panicked, sacked him and... carried on downwards. Maybe it wasn''t him, it was mainly the players who''d gone as far as they could at that club and had lost heart.

Just a thought or two.

[gazzathegreat 0]

Maybe Diesel we are just more picky these days, or have greater expectations?  Maybe that is down to the individual, but I seem to remember there was a lot better football to watch under the likes of Bond and even Saunders at times.  Now we have a relatively successful club (by that I mean one that satisfies its customers by way of selling out each match (or near it based on season ticket base), whereas we had much better football under Mike Walker, were much more successful on the pitch but didn''t have the numbers in the ground.  Yes, the ground has been built up since then, and we have made changes from the top down.  Panicing (and I first started going to CR in 1970), yes, I am, well worried anyway, angry, certainly. 

We are under-achieving on the pitch, IMO anyway.  We have been relegated and seemingly can''t find our way again.  We have a manager, who at the start of the season said there would be no excuses if we were not promotoed, but as we are not exactly running away with the league he continually issues statements concerning injuries, hoping.......  The board are just hoping too, that things get better. 

I don''t want to see this club undo all the good work that has been done over the past few years.  I have admired some of (not all) the football produced under Nigel, and the custodianship of the board, nothing in life is perfect, but I cannot myself stand by and take anymore crap coming out of the mouths of Worthington and the board regarding the standard of football on the pitch.  Mostly woeful, occasionally beyond polite words, it has been a season to forget.  What I cannot forget however is the way we, the fans are being subjected to patronising statements, until I guess February, when we will become important once more. 

 

[Salopian 1]

Diesel, you are right about ups and downs, and I have been a watcher more than ten years longer than you.

But what is worrying some of us are some of the strange decisions

emanating from management, signings, team selection and tactics (- are

there any, or do the team forget once they are on the pitch?) Does

anyone doubt that the signings over the summer have proved to be

disappointing, - hence the need for so many loan signings since. Again,

many of us were unimpressd by the signings and feared the worst.

The doubters will also concede that there is a severe loss of

confidence, especially on the pasrt of Ashton, and that this is

difficult for a manager to counter, but for at least 12 or 13 months

now there has been a failure in application and commitment, and an

inconsistency from game to game and within a game, and that is

something that a manager must seek to change.

Talk of relegation is alarmist and over-pessimistic, I hope, but we

have a very poor record, especially away from home. Other teams have

"sussed" Huckerby, on whom we have relied heavily for two seasons past,

or has he lost something of his edge? We were led to believe, by

independent observers that we had one of the best squads in the

Championship, and for whatever reasons they are underperforming.

We fear that sticking plasters are too late, and that change is vital

to energise the side - whether the introduction of one or two

outstanding players who can make things happen, as Huckerby did when he

first arrived, or by a change in managerial personnel or approach.

[0King Juan of SpainddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0]

You''re right Salopian, we haven''t looked the same since that 5-0 win at Crewe 2 years ago. I really believe we have had a generally ''clueless'' look about us since the start of the premiership and I think a lot of that was down to not replacing players of the stature of Iwan and Malky. I don''t for a minute think they could have coped in the Prem but we haven''t had anyone on the pitch to inspire the other players when things have looked down.

Although it pains me to say it, we need to check our expectations of this season because last season was pretty much a disaster. I know we had a decent run towards the end but let''s be honest, it was against teams with nothing to play for. It gave us false hopes. We were relegated in February. The Fulham game just proved the point.

Had we let Helveg stamp his undoubted authority on the team earlier in the season (difficult, I know, as he took time to adjust), I think he could have made a good captain and leader in place of Malky and Iwan, but Worthy did his usual thing of ''going with the hard workers'' and putting us into headless chicken mode. When the time came to get down to the post-xmas scrap, we had no leader on the field and everyone was looking at each other for answers. No one had them.

The fact that we didn''t sign Morrison at the start of this season was another bad blow. While I didn''t think he''s worth £2m, it was a signal to other teams and, more importantly, our own players that we meant business. We lost out and have continued doing so ever since.

Worthy baffles me sometimes but I''m prepared to see what happens over xmas and in the January transfer window - where the board really ought to prove their worth - until I make a judgement. I''ve been watching for 20 years and the one thing I know is that you can''t predict what''s going to happen five games from now. Five good wins and we''ll all be talking about beating Man Utd again next season...

OTBC

[chicken 0]

Numbers of supporters fluxuates a lot and is not really a great reflection of the quality of football. Wigan being a great example, I don''t think their average gate is a great as ours and they are in the prem. One thing for sure is that they still were struggling to attract a full house last season!

I think that there is a mixture of problems regarding our team.

Firstly there is the fact that when we were promoted we did it with a thin squad of consistant and sound championship players. In that team we had a lot of experience and a lot of players 30+. I think one of our downsides in the prem was the lack of players being able to break with pace - and it does seem like Worthington likes to structure a team around the ability of the attacking players to break quickly.

The result of the premiership season meant that we would have to re-structure. I am pretty sure that the club knew this before it started. It wasn''t a matter of if and when but more like which league it would have to be in.

For the most part the signings Worthington has made have proven their worth. The only real doubt has been JJ and it is possible that he just needs games in the tank before getting back to the top of his game - one thing we can not risk at the moment.

The players that have stayed on from last season are suffering a bit of a hang over. Huckerby is obviously down after last season as he was one of the few consistant performers who was prepared to battle hard for the green and yellow. Last season it was hard to swallow simply because a lot of players that we thought were good enough werent or were and lost the passion for the cause like Svensson, Francis and Helveg.

Fulham displayed that when push came to shove many of those players would rather seek other ways of staying in top flight football other than winning.

It was weird, and must have been slightly strange for the players last year. We were loosing games but it became almost ok to loose games because without more passion and drive their was very little the true Norwich players could do to win games. They were playing with half-arsed players who couldn''t give a damn about where we were come the end of the season.

I think that mentality has carried over to this season. We seem to have forgotton which league we are in.

I truly believe that we have a better squad than two seasons ago and that we also are in a much easier league. There is no team out their other than perhaps Leeds that are spending vast amounts of money on players. Reading and Sheff Utd have grafted their way to the top just as we did two seasons ago.

As for comments regarding football under Mike Walker etc, I remember those days too although I also remember that what teams spent was much more comparitable than the amounts spent today. Chris Sutton (about ten years ago now) was the first player bought/sold for £5million. Now the big clubs will spend upwards of £10million on a single player when our current squad cost less than that together.

Survival in the premiership now is all about good football. Unfortunately the championship isnt so much about neat and tidy - there is a great deal of rough and tumble involved.

It just depends on how you want to look at it. The main factors I see as a problem at the moment is the team settling. Most of the teams in the top six have had the same players around for a good two to three seasons at least. Think of Sheffield Utd - how long has Tong been a central figure in their line up? Reading are the same.

I think it has got a lot to do with the players - easily as much if not more than it has to do with the manager.

[Fat Barman 0]

[quote user="Amarillo"]

 The

manager of Doncaster is top dog at the moment and I''ve heard some

commentators say "he wouldn''t look out of place in the Prem"... and yet

Donny are 9th in the Conference or something.

[/quote]

Good posts guys, just correcting this point.

The Donny Rovers boss was appointed while they were a conference side.

He has achieved back-to-back promotions and they are currently nicely

placed in league 1 (with a splendid Carling Cup run to shout about).

He''s just won manager of the month for November and has been touted

(along with Adrian Boothroyd) as a potential coach, with Sir Clive

Woodward at Southampton, when Harry Redknapp rejoins Pompey.

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Does this mean that Norwich achievements are almost inevitably followed by a slump?

[Mook 0]

Well, 1st Wizard''s been going to Carrow since the dawn of time, and he''s the worst of the panickers!

I think Gazza has hit the nail on the head with her assessment - it''s not so much the lack of results, it''s the lack of GOOD FOOTBALL and the seemingly headless way we go about training, scouting, signing players and releasing them.

I don''t expect premiership, I don''t expect to win every week but I am a NORWICH fan not a wimbledon fan, or a West Brom or Bolton fan.

I do expect to see the ball on the floor, down the wings, knocking good passes about and trying to play the game properly. I DON''T expect to see Ashton trying to win headers for 90 minutes.

No wonder he''s given up jumping. If you were a player of that calibre, would you want to spend 90 minutes jumping?

[Robert N. LiM 4,243]

Surely part of the problem is that things move so much more quickly now. Ten or fifteen years ago, we might have been able to tolerate such a difficult season after getting relegated, with the knowledge that we could build a squad and have another go at promotion the following season. But with all the money concentrated in the Premiership, we know that it''ll be very difficult to keep hold of Ashton and Green in the transfer window and almost impossible in the summer. So there''s lots more pressure and lots more desperation to get things going straight away.

I personally like the fact that this is a loyal club that recognises the excellent job that Worthington has done here and wants to give him more time. But the realities of football in the Sky-driven era are that you don''t have time.

The weird thing is that we could still get promoted this season. I admit it looks very unlikely at the moment, but it really doesn''t take much of a run to get into the play-offs. But at the moment it''s difficult to get excited. Even if we do turn things round, scrape into the play offs in sixth place, beat a dispirited Sheffield Utd in the semi final after their automatic promotion spot has been lost on the last day of the season, and then win the final, we''d have to build an all-new team in the Premiership, assembled from Helvegs, Jonssons and others who really don''t care about the club. The last time we were promoted, in 1986, our championship-winning side finished fifth in the old First Division. There''s no prospect of something like that happening now. So either we hang around the championship, with decent, long-serving players who we can get to know and worship (Iwan, Malky etc)  or we get promoted and become like any other rent-a-Scandinavian team.

Depressing couple of options. And England aren''t even winning at cricket any more.

 

[gazzathegreat 0]

Mook

I think we are just scared now of any mistakes and desperate to win at any cost.  Thing is, Worthy hasn''t the first idea about how to play proper football, much less wanting to, it''s not in his philosophy of football decreed by the messiah Howard Wilkinson. 

As for Ashton, nothing has made me angrier or more in despair (not even relegation) than seeing this promising young player totally ruined in less than a season by Worthy.  For that, and that alone Worthy should go.  Dario Gradi had sold us a technically sound player who knew where the goal was and how best to convert them.  Things was he was sold to a club managed by someone who thought it would be okay to boot the ball up to him any old how.  Deano scored 20 goals for Crewe last year, and was sold to us in Jan, this year how many has he scored how many?  Sort of puts our whole team efforts into perspective doesn''t it, when Crewe can manage to get the ball to Deano for him to put away 20 goals. 

All we have to do is start working on proper coaching and tactics.  That is Worthy, playing to Deano''s strengths, not expecting him to fit in with yours.  He is not Iwan, he is a lot better and you have ruined him.  I can''t tell you Mook how happy I was learning we had signed him, I thought, hello, maybe I was wrong about Worthy, but sadly, he hasn''t changed and we are now a complete joke on and off the pitch.  Getting back to basics of technique (and this might take a bit longer than a couple of hours in the morning), team work etc and we might start going somewhere. 

Worthy, Dave Williams has the academy side playing great football, and when they play in the reserves under Keith Webb we can see that influence.  Why can''t this carry on into the first team?

Mook, by the way I am looking forward to the Arsenal reserve game - should be the best game of football at Carrow Road this year.