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I have a funny feeling, that this whole conversation would have panned out differently, if all of us were actually in the same room, when this subject was brought up.

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I have a funny feeling, that this whole conversation would have panned out differently, if all of us were actually in the same room, when this subject was brought up.

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21 minutes ago, king canary said:

Ahh I was trying to stay out of this thread but...

Nobody is discriminating against old white guys are they?  They do pretty well for themselves in general. The world is pretty much run by old white guys. To say men or white people in general have a certain privileged and advantage within Western societies isn't bigoted. The fact you dismiss ideas like privilege as 'psuedo-intellectual BS' just adds to the sense that you don't get it. Then we have folks such as NN above saying 'I wasn't offended' as if it is remotely relevant whether white people are offended by terms for people of other races, which is the cherry on the 'not getting it' cake.

I don't think anyone on this thread is actually a racist (we've had our fair share on this forum at times though) but I think some people are so unwilling to consider that it actually isn't all about you. Sometimes it helps to listen to folks like Bethnal who have faced actual and real discrimination on the basis of their skin colour, rather the immediately shout 'PC police' at the top of your voice.

Quote

Oh yay, another chapter of 'Old White Guys Missing the Point.'

So that isn't you directly discriminating against (presumably) "old white guy" NN based on his ethnicity and/or age then? You're not arguing the point he made, you're quite literally employing a racially-motivated ad-hominem attack against him - which apparently is something you're so against.

Maybe some "old white guys" do pretty much run the world - but what about all those "young white guys" born into poverty, or middle-aged white guys on the street? What about all those guys who commit suicide? What about all those under-privileged youths who have no chance of getting into an elitist University or sport? What about all those people who have worked for their entire lives and contributed to tax revenues, who are now told their opinion is basically worthless, or they just "don't get it" because of the colour of their skin?

I have no question there is still racial prejudices within the UK, and there is no question genuine discrimination should be eradicated wherever possible - but what are you actually achieving by constantly judging people based on their race or age? In my opinion this is not actually addressing the underlying inequality within our Country (and the world in general) - it's just applying some meaningless truism to make people feel better about their own social standing.

I quite agree with your assertion that I "don't get it". I don't get the fact you would judge my words differently depending on my gender, race, or other properties rather than my individual assertions and content of my argument. After all, you've clearly assumed my gender and ethnicity, and therefore the value of my words, without knowing anything about my family background.

Edited by Ian

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There are far too many posters on this message board who see racism when there is non intended. I had it myself on a thread I no longer partake.

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Christ on a bike, can we let this go or have it taken to another forum?

KG has apologised and clearly had no idea the impact of what he typed. We have all learnt something and virtually everyone has agreed racism has no place here. The same points are being regurgitated, interspersed with comments from posters trying to deflect by making themselves look silly

 

However, we have probably the last derby against them lot in what may be many years, if they are relegated, coming up in a matter of days.

Lets get back on topic. At least something NCFC related.

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11 minutes ago, East Rider said:

Christ on a bike, can we let this go or have it taken to another forum?

KG has apologised and clearly had no idea the impact of what he typed. We have all learnt something and virtually everyone has agreed racism has no place here. The same points are being regurgitated, interspersed with comments from posters trying to deflect by making themselves look silly

 

However, we have probably the last derby against them lot in what may be many years, if they are relegated, coming up in a matter of days.

Lets get back on topic. At least something NCFC related.

Alternatively, don't click on the thread? Plenty of other NCFC related stuff you can read.

 

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26 minutes ago, East Rider said:

Christ on a bike, can we let this go or have it taken to another forum?

KG has apologised and clearly had no idea the impact of what he typed. We have all learnt something and virtually everyone has agreed racism has no place here. The same points are being regurgitated, interspersed with comments from posters trying to deflect by making themselves look silly

 

However, we have probably the last derby against them lot in what may be many years, if they are relegated, coming up in a matter of days.

Lets get back on topic. At least something NCFC related.

Sadly, racism is still prevalent in our society and many people take the approach, rightly IMHO, that they aren't going to let it go. As King Canary says, there are plenty of other threads on here if you don't want to read about it, but I would suggest that you stick around, and you might learn a little, as KG has eloquently and humbly said he has.

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1 hour ago, Ian said:

I have no question there is still racial prejudices within the UK, and there is no question genuine discrimination should be eradicated wherever possible - but what are you actually achieving by constantly judging people based on their race or age? In my opinion this is not actually addressing the underlying inequality within our Country (and the world in general) - it's just applying some meaningless truism to make people feel better about their own social standing.

I quite agree with your assertion that I "don't get it". I don't get the fact you would judge my words differently depending on my gender, race, or other properties rather than my individual assertions and content of my argument. After all, you've clearly assumed my gender and ethnicity, and therefore the value of my words, without knowing anything about my family background.

But the thing is, while people dismiss ideas like racial privileged as pseudo-intellectual nonsense nothing changes. You have to recognise something exists before it can be changed.

Stats like this come about because of ingrained, structural prejudiced and it needs to be challenged. Racism isn't just the national front beating up black people- it is the fact that CV's with an asian sounding name get interviewed far less than the exact CV with white sounding names.

The 'old white guys' comment was a bit flippant but there is truth to it- white people don't get discriminated against in this country in any meaningful sense of the word. And older white people in this country grew up in a world where their worldview went unchallenged as they were by far and away the dominant majority and sometimes find it hard to see things from others worldview- perfectly encapsulated by the people on here saying how ridiculous that the word 'chinaman' can be seen as offensive despite someone from that background telling them it is to him. From my own experience it is often the old white guys who struggle to empathize with a differing world view because they haven't really had to before. That is their (our, I'm white if not old) privilege.

Is white privilege the be all and end all? No, money, class, education and all sort of other factors come into play. But is it factor? For sure.

 

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

Ahh I was trying to stay out of this thread but...

Nobody is discriminating against old white guys are they?  They do pretty well for themselves in general. The world is pretty much run by old white guys. To say men or white people in general have a certain privileged and advantage within Western societies isn't bigoted. The fact you dismiss ideas like privilege as 'psuedo-intellectual BS' just adds to the sense that you don't get it. Then we have folks such as NN above saying 'I wasn't offended' as if it is remotely relevant whether white people are offended by terms for people of other races, which is the cherry on the 'not getting it' cake.

I don't think anyone on this thread is actually a racist (we've had our fair share on this forum at times though) but I think some people are so unwilling to consider that it actually isn't all about you. Sometimes it helps to listen to folks like Bethnal who have faced actual and real discrimination on the basis of their skin colour, rather the immediately shout 'PC police' at the top of your voice.

 

2 hours ago, king canary said:

Then we have folks such as NN above saying 'I wasn't offended' as if it is remotely relevant whether white people are offended by terms for people of other races, which is the cherry on the 'not getting it' cake.

Remember I also said that I wasn't offended on behalf of anyone else.

We're you offended Kingo? You never did actually say. If so how were you offended?

I'm a white man from Norfolk by the way. If that's relevent.

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1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

 

Remember I also said that I wasn't offended on behalf of anyone else.

We're you offended Kingo? You never did actually say. If so how were you offended?

I'm a white man from Norfolk by the way. If that's relevent.

I was more 'offended' by the reaction of rather than just saying 'sorry, didn't realise' it was doubled down on and the person complaining being accused of being humourless. However KG has shown himself to be a big enough man to apologise so all good in my opinion.

Also- of course it's relevent. Someone's own race is always relevant in a discussion like this as it informs your experience. I'm a 30 year old white man from (North) Suffolk. I've realised from conversations I've had with people from other backgrounds that I don't quote understand what it feels like to be called names that on the surface might seem harmless- so generally I defer to them even if I myself may not quite see the offense.

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Kingo, so you seem to be saying that you weren't offended by Pops' remark in the spirit it was posted but you are offended by actual racism. Guess what buddy. So am I.

And your old white guy remarks. So flippant that you used them at least twice. Was a premeditated disparaging remark based on peoples colour and birth.

So, as I said, I was not offended by it. However if I wanted to be offended by something it would definitely be your effort rather than Pops' accidental use of a term regarded as racist.

 

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Are left arm wrist spinners no longer permitted to bowl a chinaman any more or is there now a snowflake approved term for this deliver you?  Perhaps they bowl leg spin of Chinese origin these days.

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On 05/02/2019 at 12:43, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Bit racist. 

What exactly was racist about it?
 

Do you ever wonder if calling out of rising general and seriously malevolent intolerance in many societies these days is somewhat devalued by calling it out trivia like this as racism?

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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58 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What exactly was racist about it?
 

Do you ever wonder if calling out of rising general and seriously malevolent intolerance in many societies these days is somewhat devalued by calling it out trivia like this as racism?

Equally, do you ever wonder if defining some racism as acceptable gives people permission to cause hurt and upset because they can't be a**ed to consider how others feel? I can't speak for him, if you read what BYG has said, I hope you can understand what the issue was.

 

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1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

Do you want the £5 ,15 minute argument or the full hour?

Definitely looking like the full hour.

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9 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Equally, do you ever wonder if defining some racism as acceptable gives people permission to cause hurt and upset because they can't be a**ed to consider how others feel? I can't speak for him, if you read what BYG has said, I hope you can understand what the issue was.

 

Who do you suggest is hurt and upset by the original post? The fictitious Chinese owner?

 

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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11 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Equally, do you ever wonder if defining some racism as acceptable gives people permission to cause hurt and upset because they can't be a**ed to consider how others feel? I can't speak for him, if you read what BYG has said, I hope you can understand what the issue was.

 

i'm wondering about this now. Are we still talking about Chinamangate and the reaction or are we talking about racism in general. Because I still don't accept there was any racism in Pops post. There's a huge difference between accidental use of a term deemed to be racist and a racist comment. To suggest me believing this somehow gives people permission make racist comments I find insulting. 

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2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

i'm wondering about this now. Are we still talking about Chinamangate and the reaction or are we talking about racism in general. Because I still don't accept there was any racism in Pops post. There's a huge difference between accidental use of a term deemed to be racist and a racist comment. To suggest me believing this somehow gives people permission make racist comments I find insulting. 

It was racist, but I don’t think it was malicious. I and a few others jumped on it, with a bit too much force. However, keelansgrandad showed humility and I think handled the situation well in the end.

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Just now, Hoola Han Solo said:

It was racist, but I don’t think it was malicious. I and a few others jumped on it, with a bit too much force. However, keelansgrandad showed humility and I think handled the situation well in the end.

Actually, apart from being Malaysian rather than Chinese, you could read it as a straight parody of the accent and attitude of Vincent Tan at Cardiff City. 

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4 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

i'm wondering about this now. Are we still talking about Chinamangate and the reaction or are we talking about racism in general. Because I still don't accept there was any racism in Pops post. There's a huge difference between accidental use of a term deemed to be racist and a racist comment. To suggest me believing this somehow gives people permission make racist comments I find insulting. 

I don't think for a minute that KG is racist, I hope I didn't suggest that. It just goes to show again that language is a minefield. My comment was aimed at littleyellowbirdie's point that by picking up on smaller objectionable language, it may devalue reactions when something much worse occurs.

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7 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

It was racist, but I don’t think it was malicious. I and a few others jumped on it, with a bit too much force. However, keelansgrandad showed humility and I think handled the situation well in the end.

I would hope Pops apologised to Beth because he may have inadvertantly used a term that caused Beth to be upset. Which would be fair enough and I would do the same. However Pops didn't apologise for being a racist because he isn't one. 

If only people was this vigilant in calling out all the hatred that spewed out on here against good people.

And I'm amazed Beth and Daly have never crossed swords.

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2 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I don't think for a minute that KG is racist, I hope I didn't suggest that. It just goes to show again that language is a minefield. My comment was aimed at littleyellowbirdie's point that by picking up on smaller objectionable language, it may devalue reactions when something much worse occurs.

Ok and I see that. But as I just posted there's plenty of unchecked hatred on here that doesn't bring on a tenth of the reaction Pops post did. Go figure...

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7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Actually, apart from being Malaysian rather than Chinese, you could read it as a straight parody of the accent and attitude of Vincent Tan at Cardiff City. 

Have you read the whole thread? I really don't want to speak for BYG but his point was that as someone with ancestors from East Asia he has been on the receiving end of racism and that there are many people of similar heritage who find the word Chinaman, and the context in which it is used, offensive. The context here was, I don't think, offensive but that isn't for me to say, I'm not from that ethic group. I also think it is worth pointing things like this out for those of us who don't realise the offensive power of some words. He also said the remark was a bit flippant, but like I say you really need to read the whole thread.

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5 hours ago, king canary said:

But the thing is, while people dismiss ideas like racial privileged as pseudo-intellectual nonsense nothing changes. You have to recognise something exists before it can be changed.

Stats like this come about because of ingrained, structural prejudiced and it needs to be challenged. Racism isn't just the national front beating up black people- it is the fact that CV's with an asian sounding name get interviewed far less than the exact CV with white sounding names.

The 'old white guys' comment was a bit flippant but there is truth to it- white people don't get discriminated against in this country in any meaningful sense of the word. And older white people in this country grew up in a world where their worldview went unchallenged as they were by far and away the dominant majority and sometimes find it hard to see things from others worldview- perfectly encapsulated by the people on here saying how ridiculous that the word 'chinaman' can be seen as offensive despite someone from that background telling them it is to him. From my own experience it is often the old white guys who struggle to empathize with a differing world view because they haven't really had to before. That is their (our, I'm white if not old) privilege.

Is white privilege the be all and end all? No, money, class, education and all sort of other factors come into play. But is it factor? For sure.

 

Got it buddy - the way to deal with systematic racism in society is to be, erm, systematically racist against someone who can't really fight back.

Critical thinking clearly not on the agenda at Universities these days.

Btw, I took offense at your old white guys "flippant" statements - so as I've been in the position to experience racism against white guys you should defer to that and apologise, right? 

 

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4 minutes ago, Ian said:

Got it buddy - the way to deal with systematic racism in society is to be, erm, systematically racist against someone who can't really fight back.

Critical thinking clearly not on the agenda at Universities these days.

Btw, I took offense at your old white guys "flippant" statements - so as I've been in the position to experience racism against white guys you should defer to that and apologise, right? 

 

How many times have you been spat at, or your kids beaten up, or not considered for a job, or stopped when going through customs because you’re a white man? The critical thinking thing goes both ways Ian. 

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1 minute ago, Nuff Said said:

How many times have you been spat at, or your kids beaten up, or not considered for a job, or stopped when going through customs because you’re a white man? The critical thinking thing goes both ways Ian. 

So those things are all caused by old white guys like NN, right? I don't think you quite understand what the definition of critical (or thinking) is.

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