Rock The Boat 1,290 Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Nuff Said said: How many times have you been spat at, or your kids beaten up, or not considered for a job, or stopped when going through customs because you’re a white man? The critical thinking thing goes both ways Ian. I'm not aware of my kid being beaten up as a consequence of my being a white man, but I have experienced all the other things. Or try entering some of the bars and clubs in Japan as a white man, and you will find yourself being refused entry based purely on your race and skin colour. Racism isn't just confined to the West and perpetrated against non-Westerners. And there isn't such a thing a 'white privilege' in the way that it is attempted to be portrayed by the Left. That is just a lazy, manufactured trope. As I tried to describe yesterday, there is as much 'asian privilege' in asian culture as their is 'white privilege' in white cultures. And why wouldn't there be? The whole idea of creating a culture would be to make it as comfortable for members of that culture. Try getting a job in Japan without being able to speak Japanese, it doesn't matter how qualified or how much experience you have in your career subject, the odds are totally stacked against your gaining employment in your career field, and if you do, you will almost certainly be on a lower pay grade than an equivalently qualified native. But this is not systemic racism by the Japanese, or by whomever is the dominant culture under review, keeping you out of a job. It's more akin to a list of checkboxes where a member of that dominant culture is more likely to tick off than say, an immigrant who has just arrived in that culture. But obviously it gets easier for the immigrant who assimilates into the dominant culture, learns the language, accepts the local customs and ways of doing things who can start to earn the same privileges as the traditional members of the dominant culture, even though they are not white. Which is why you see East Asians are the most successful immigrant group in the west in terms of educational scores and entry into high-value jobs because of their ability to assimilate successfully into western culture without having any of the advantages of so-called 'white privilege'. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557 Posted February 7, 2019 If we were in Japan, we would of course be having a very different conversation. I am half Japanese, so know better than most the positive and negatives of race relations in that country. We are talking about in this country. It is obvious that racism is different in every country as it is something based on race. White privileged is a very real thing. It doesn’t mean every white person is going to have a great life. But it does mean that white people will almost never be disadvantaged due to their race. There are other bias that may effect them, whether it is people’s attitude to disability, or accent etc. I don’t think it is something a white person actively feels, because these things aren’t really noticeable and you would have always had it. Let me tell you though, you certainly notice it the other way. It affects non-white people in a huge variety of ways. From a lack of job opportunities, to small things like less likely to find matches on Tinder or even being told they can’t rent a property on AirBnB. When you talk about immigrants and skills that is a separate topic - of course if you can’t speak English you will find it harder to get a job where you need to speak English. But discrimination of non-white people isn’t exclusive to immigrants, it has impacts on non-white British people. There are numerous studies that show that white people will have greater opportunities and can expect higher remuneration for doing an equivalent job. And if you are a non-white woman, good luck to you as you’ll getting the worst of it. You could argue that isn’t ‘white privileged’ but ‘non-white disadvantage’. But ultimately those are two sides of the same coin. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
River End Canary 18 Posted February 7, 2019 Bethnal can you please stop your trolling and stick to Ncfc matters Thank you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nuff Said 4,938 Posted February 7, 2019 8 hours ago, Ian said: So those things are all caused by old white guys like NN, right? I don't think you quite understand what the definition of critical (or thinking) is. Did I say that? I don’t think so. To try again, the “racism” you think is being demonstrated against old white men (a category I am rapidly approaching myself), I.e. assumptions made about someone on a football message board, pales into insignificance against the very real and disempowering experience of minority groups of whatever hue in this country. And I don’t understand the argument (not made by you Ian) that because white people experience racism in other countries, that somehow cancels it out in the UK? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian 1,117 Posted February 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, Nuff Said said: Did I say that? I don’t think so. To try again, the “racism” you think is being demonstrated against old white men (a category I am rapidly approaching myself), I.e. assumptions made about someone on a football message board, pales into insignificance against the very real and disempowering experience of minority groups of whatever hue in this country. And I don’t understand the argument (not made by you Ian) that because white people experience racism in other countries, that somehow cancels it out in the UK? Did I say that either? Are you attributing others' quotes to me? My point was simply this: we have made great progress but racism still exists in our society, and we should be identifying and dealing with actual problems. However I see very little difference between this sort of discrimination and dismissing someone's opinion/argument purely based on their race and/or age. There is a nasty edge to modern society that seems to be trying to legitimise these sorts of attitudes as long as it's the "right sort" of racism/ageism/sexism/religious persecution, and it seems to be growing in popularity. My belief is that genuine discrimination and hatred against people based on their skin colour, gender, religion or age is a bad thing across the board, not selectively. Time to get back on-topic I think... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midlands Yellow 3,825 Posted February 7, 2019 Surprised the Wynn-Jones interview last week hasn’t had a mention. Arabs and camels down Carrow Road . Far worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 7,455 Posted February 7, 2019 11 hours ago, Ian said: Got it buddy - the way to deal with systematic racism in society is to be, erm, systematically racist against someone who can't really fight back. Critical thinking clearly not on the agenda at Universities these days. Btw, I took offense at your old white guys "flippant" statements - so as I've been in the position to experience racism against white guys you should defer to that and apologise, right? Lucky I buy these irony meters in bulk as they just keep exploding. Accusing someone else of not being capable of critcal thinking while trying to draw a non existent equivalency between the racism suffered by systematic racism that minorities in this country deal with every day and me saying 'old white guys are missing the point.' I always thought you were a reasonably smart poster Ian- you can do better than that nonsense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian 1,117 Posted February 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, king canary said: Lucky I buy these irony meters in bulk as they just keep exploding. Accusing someone else of not being capable of critcal thinking while trying to draw a non existent equivalency between the racism suffered by systematic racism that minorities in this country deal with every day and me saying 'old white guys are missing the point.' I always thought you were a reasonably smart poster Ian- you can do better than that nonsense. The fact you don't think there's any equivalency kind of underlines my point. Anyway, you're obviously far too smart to debate with me so I suggest we move on at this point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 7,455 Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, Ian said: The fact you don't think there's any equivalency kind of underlines my point. Anyway, you're obviously far too smart to debate with me so I suggest we move on at this point. I'd suggest the fact you think there is any equivalency underlines my initial point to be honest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian 1,117 Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, king canary said: I'd suggest the fact you think there is any equivalency underlines my initial point to be honest. Buddy, you quite literally used racially-charged and ageist language to dismiss NN and a whole demographic of people, without knowing anything about his background or any oppression he may have faced in his life. Perhaps this was a joke - but this apparently is something you are arguing against, so perhaps your irony meters are extremely faulty. Have you tried turning them off and on? Let me try and make my point more clearly, because you've obviously ascended to a much higher level than me with regards to this whole discussion: As I have said previously, despite progress made, there is without question systematic discrimination faced by minorities still within our society and it we should do everything we can to provide equal opportunity to all, regardless of race, gender, background, wealth and so on. However, the fact that these issues exist should not be justification for people to use whatever sort of language they please towards people they perceive to be "non-oppressed" or have a certain level of privilege, and then use the whole "well you're not as oppressed as that minority" defence. Nor does it, in my opinion, mean that these sort of ad-hom, sneering/bullying attacks should be excused or trivialised - I we should call out this sort of behaviour regardless of how minor or flippant you believe it to be. Anyway, I expect this is extremely boring for anybody else reading the thread so I suggest we agree to respect each other's opinions and move on. Edited February 7, 2019 by Ian Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,351 Posted February 7, 2019 I've already moved on safe in the knowledge that this will resurface in time. These things always do. It's a matter of the heart.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fr. Chewy Louie 137 Posted February 7, 2019 Pretty depressing to read some of the stuff on this thread in 2019. For some reason the expression "from a position of privilege, equality seems like oppression" is floating around my mind. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,351 Posted February 7, 2019 I'd have been depressed by some of this in 1969... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nuff Said 4,938 Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) Let's hug it out guys! 👨❤️💋👨 x Edited February 7, 2019 by Nuff Said Punctuation! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,351 Posted February 7, 2019 You can have a sloppy kiss on the cheek Nuff😘 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FenwayFrank 2,423 Posted February 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: You can have a sloppy kiss on the cheek Nuff😘 Not a big sloppy kiss on the **** though Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FenwayFrank 2,423 Posted February 7, 2019 Ooh, m u f f isn’t allowed 😀 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,351 Posted February 7, 2019 I should hope not. What a world... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nuff Said 4,938 Posted February 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, nutty nigel said: You can have a sloppy kiss on the cheek Nuff😘 Best offer I’ve had all day😗 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites