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*****Official Match Thread v WBA*****

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False premise again Ron. It smacks of ‘who’s fault is it?’ and ‘I need a single person to blame’.

in this case the zone Gayle scores from is Godfrey’s, but in real time - as Gayle briefly darts into Zimmermann’s zone away from the ball, Zimmermann can see the player, the ball and the play. He doesn’t have any other immediate responsibility and hasn’t yet meaningfully engaged in the play. Godfrey does hand him over (correctly in my view, he IS worried about the danger space,  it may be afraid Zimmermann hasn’t really ‘got’ Gayle).

This is why I said i’d need tospeak to the players. It depends on what was said and understood, what the communication was. Personally if I was Zimmermann, I see everything and take Gayle, breaking my neck to get tight behind him or steal in front if I can. He knows thst’s the danger and should go anyway (even if he think it’s Godfrey’s space). He is facing play, player and ball. 

This is why Managers talk about collective defensive responsibility. It depends who does and doesn’t do what, what others then have to do, what they might have preferred to do instead. Who is covering for who.  There is also a good amount of time to pick the cross in. How has that come about? What was the shape of the strikers and midfield upon loss of possession, the transition to defensive shape? This may have allowed an easy switch, isolating Lewis and giving more time for the opposition to pick a better pass....

As a defender You could easily be covering for 2 other people’s (relatively unseen) positional half-mistakes and end up looking to blame yourself. To say ‘just do your job’ is nonsense in this context, everybody should always be half-covering for someone else (or thinking it might be necessary). This initial shape and positioning is not quite right from anyone.

In that context in my view even if Zimmermann is right about the zone, he is wrong. He should track anyway, it is just the way the action has panned out. There is no point protesting being in the right on a pedestrian crossing if you are anyway run over by a truck. 

Parma

 

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11 hours ago, splendidrush said:

My brain hurts.....

The defence left space at the near post and didn’t pick up Gayle so he scored...

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I think it is easy from our view to overplay our defensive role in the goal and underplay the quality of the ball and the run by Gayle. Everything is timed perfectly from their side.

Edited by king canary
Typo
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49 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

False premise again Ron. It smacks of ‘who’s fault is it?’ and ‘I need a single person to blame’.

in this case the zone Gayle scores from is Godfrey’s, but in real time - as Gayle briefly darts into Zimmermann’s zone away from the ball, Zimmermann can see the player, the ball and the play. He doesn’t have any other immediate responsibility and hasn’t yet meaningfully engaged in the play. Godfrey does hand him over (correctly in my view, he IS worried about the danger space,  it may be afraid Zimmermann hasn’t really ‘got’ Gayle).

This is why I said i’d need tospeak to the players. It depends on what was said and understood, what the communication was. Personally if I was Zimmermann, I see everything and take Gayle, breaking my neck to get tight behind him or steal in front if I can. He knows thst’s the danger and should go anyway (even if he think it’s Godfrey’s space). He is facing play, player and ball. 

This is why Managers talk about collective defensive responsibility. It depends who does and doesn’t do what, what others then have to do, what they might have preferred to do instead. Who is covering for who.  There is also a good amount of time to pick the cross in. How has that come about? What was the shape of the strikers and midfield upon loss of possession, the transition to defensive shape? This may have allowed an easy switch, isolating Lewis and giving more time for the opposition to pick a better pass....

As a defender You could easily be covering for 2 other people’s (relatively unseen) positional half-mistakes and end up looking to blame yourself. To say ‘just do your job’ is nonsense in this context, everybody should always be half-covering for someone else (or thinking it might be necessary). This initial shape and positioning is not quite right from anyone.

In that context in my view even if Zimmermann is right about the zone, he is wrong. He should track anyway, it is just the way the action has panned out. There is no point protesting being in the right on a pedestrian crossing if you are anyway run over by a truck. 

Parma

 

I think you're misrepresenting me Parma. Who do you think I'm trying to blame? Where in my posts do I say one single person is to blame? It looks like you're trying to find something that isn't there.

I'm not trying to exonerate Zimmerman from all responsibility, I just don't think he's particularly culpable compared to Ben or even Jamal. The key point (obviously) is that nobody went with Gayle & that seems to be down to poor communication - for which Christoph, as I said having the greater experience, should probably have taken charge of. I suspect if Timm had been there his initial positioning would have been better than Ben's - he would have been aware of the lack of cover in his LCB area, seen the 'hole' the potential danger it created & been ready to fill it.

Watching it (yet) again it looks to me as if Christoph is covering the deeper ball possibility towards the back post as the cross is made; at this point it's impossible for us to know a) what the crosser is going to do & b) what Gayle will do. Their players do, though. Ben & Zimm look at each other several times around the crucial crossing moment & it is clear neither is certain about what to do.

It was an excellent goal. Obviously a top class defence could have stopped it, but ours isn't. The best we can hope is that it's another point in the learning curve, another bit of experience to tuck away in your mind for when a similar situation occurs.

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Forgive me Ron, I used you a little to make a wider point. You are a more open-minded poster, tending to ask questions, rather than jumping into 2D simple answers.

There is quite a notable possibility that - despite never touching the ball and ostensibly having little to do with the action - Zimmermann may bear a good tranche of responsibility for the goal. 

This goes to show that simply watching the last piece of action as the goal goes in is a thoroughly unreliable indicator of responsibility: some goals are the result of clear individual mistakes, many more are a culmination of small technical errors opening the opportunity to the opportunity.

Parma

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Forgive me Ron, I used you a little to make a wider point. You are a more open-minded poster, tending to ask questions, rather than jumping into 2D simple answers.

There is quite a notable possibility that - despite never touching the ball and ostensibly having little to do with the action - Zimmermann may bear a good tranche of responsibility for the goal. 

This goes to show that simply watching the last piece of action as the goal goes in is a thoroughly unreliable indicator of responsibility: some goals are the result of clear individual mistakes, many more are a culmination of small technical errors opening the opportunity to the opportunity.

Parma

 

 

 

 

Te absolvo Parma   :classic_smile:

And a belated Happy New Year! Good to have you back posting.

 

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4 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Forgive me Ron, I used you a little to make a wider point. You are a more open-minded poster, tending to ask questions, rather than jumping into 2D simple answers.

There is quite a notable possibility that - despite never touching the ball and ostensibly having little to do with the action - Zimmermann may bear a good tranche of responsibility for the goal. 

This goes to show that simply watching the last piece of action as the goal goes in is a thoroughly unreliable indicator of responsibility: some goals are the result of clear individual mistakes, many more are a culmination of small technical errors opening the opportunity to the opportunity.

Parma

 

 

 

 

'Opening the opportunity to the opportunity '.... you've lost me. 

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7 hours ago, splendidrush said:

'Opening the opportunity to the opportunity '.... you've lost me. 

The iPhone predictive text function can lose all of us SR.

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Yes Godfrey was the nearest man in the end but credit them for a good cross and Gayle sensing where the ball might go. Instinct. Just like Jordan did for our goal. They make the runs, normally keeping onside, that give them the half yard they need. Strikers have the sixth sense to be in the right position for tap ins or in both cases on Saturday, getting their feet in the right place to guide the ball in which is all they did.

I thought Godfrey had a good game knowing he might struggle with Gayle's pace but got in the right position virtually every time.

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‘Opening the opportunity to the opportunity’ is exactly what I meant.

The small technical errors before the ‘final’ error that allow for the assist (or potential assist) to be made.

As Farke said of the goal in question ‘perhaps not enough pressure on the ball in’. This is the error before the error of letting Gayle run into dangerous space.

Why did that error come about? Why was Lewis sucked over and thus too far away to pressure then all in at the key moment?

This is not ‘going back to the Big Bang’.

In the joined-up playing methodology we employ, such small errors are compound and directly affect what happens next.

An error that allows the ‘opportunity (assist-feed) for the opportunity (assist)’ will this be very carefully studied by the coaches. 

Errors are tracked to source and teaching players to think about ‘source errors’ - which are typically smaller and able to be more specifically remedied (“make a technical foul in this particular situation” for example), than the old-fashioned and mindless ‘we need to cut out individual errors’. Which is vague, poor human psychology and ultimately ineffective.

Parma

 

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Players who preemp and prevent opponenents finding space rarely get noticed on the highlights. I usually miss it at games too.

I need to sit next to Parma more🙃

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On the flip side, watch Leitner - he's always in space and within 10 yards of the ball, pretty much anywhere on the pitch.  Can't wait for him to be fit again...

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1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

‘Opening the opportunity to the opportunity’ is exactly what I meant.

😳   Apologies to both you and Apple then Parma!

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