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River End Canary

What’s the point of having a squad?

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58 minutes ago, BigFish said:

When it comes to it we have a really strong first 11..........and after that not so much.

Those who talk about rotation are really talking about fielding a weaker team and with the small margins in some games that would have cost us points. Farke obviously doesn't rate either Hanley or Marshall. We have largely exceeded expectations with this approach helped by Cantwell, Aarons and Godfrey stepping up to the plate, Tettey's remarkable resilience & the find that has been Pukki. To pretend otherwise is to give oxygen to the moaners who sound a little bit like they are disappointed it has gone so well and are pleased that they now have an opportunity to revert to type.

I am a bit surprised you say Farke obviously does not rate Hanley when he named him captain for this season.

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7 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

I am a bit surprised you say Farke obviously does not rate Hanley when he named him captain for this season.

Was just about to say this. With Klose out of contract in the summer, and Zimmermann a largely dependable if unspectacular understudy, I'd say that Hanley and Godfrey will be our first-choice partnership when the dust settles. Hanley is deceptively fast as well as being a good all-round defender, and Godfrey is clearly being primed for the role of a modern centre-back who is quick, agile and can distribute the ball well.

Hanley has simply been a victim of injury, followed by a settled team getting a string of good results.

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8 hours ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Yeah, felt keeping the same team who had played most of the gruelling festive period was a mistake yesterday and the injuries almost certain came about due to it. 

If it wasn’t a cup game next weekend I’m pretty sure there would have been changes. I do worry Fakre doesn’t rotate enough and that he seems to struggle to get performances out of some players. Ben Marshall is a proven Championship player and should have be allowed to contribute more to the season so far. 

He's a proven Championship player to a certain level - namely as an attacking winger at Millwall and a right back at Blackburn.  Neither of those are what we play. The emergence of Aarons has cost him the place reserved for him when he was bought - a place which he didn't make his own when he was given the chance early in the season. Passlack is much closer to the type of player we need there than Marshall is.

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2 hours ago, BigFish said:

When it comes to it we have a really strong first 11..........and after that not so much.

Those who talk about rotation are really talking about fielding a weaker team and with the small margins in some games that would have cost us points. Farke obviously doesn't rate either Hanley or Marshall. We have largely exceeded expectations with this approach helped by Cantwell, Aarons and Godfrey stepping up to the plate, Tettey's remarkable resilience & the find that has been Pukki. To pretend otherwise is to give oxygen to the moaners who sound a little bit like they are disappointed it has gone so well and are pleased that they now have an opportunity to revert to type.

 

2 hours ago, king canary said:

Christs sake.

To suggest we should rotate the squad a bit more now means you're disappointed in us doing well...

I'm not sure BigFish is suggesting we rotate the squad, seems more like he is saying the opposite, and he is chiding some on here who are believe we should be rotating the squad more? I'm sure to be corrected if I'm wrong!

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13 minutes ago, king canary said:

That is just...not remotely true

Most successful teams are notable by how few players they use. There are numerous examples of this.

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It’s all benefit of hindsight. None of this criticism was before the game and no one knows what have happened if had rotated.   Personally would bring in Hanley for Zimmerman and think Marshall is a decent substitute but no right back. But what I do know is that Farke knows a lot more than me and any of his egotistical know all critics on here. 

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To be fair T many on here and across social media were saying that following the Derby debacle changes were needed against Brentford. Marshall is better further forward and could have replaced Cantwell.

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1 hour ago, Felixfan said:

Winning teams rarely rotate their squad.

Manchester City regularly did last season, and they were pretty handy.

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17 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

Manchester City regularly did last season, and they were pretty handy.

Manchester United regularly did last season and they were dog ****.

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18 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

Manchester City regularly did last season, and they were pretty handy.

Liverpool also regulary rotate players. While of course teams in Europe have extra fixtures and require more rotation there is certainly no correlation between a winning and not rotating. 

I think some people when they hear rotation believe that it means making 3,4,5 changes between games - it doesn’t have to be that many. Just regular rotating 1 or 2 players allows for a squad to maximise its performances across a long period of time. 

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1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

To be fair T many on here and across social media were saying that following the Derby debacle changes were needed against Brentford. Marshall is better further forward and could have replaced Cantwell.

Derby debacle🤣

I loved it apart from the last bit after the lights went out. 

Binners getting tonked by Millwall with no excuse apart from being carp is a debacle🙃

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It’s all subjective and there’s a lot of “wise after the event” stuff here. To be honest, given that we were apparently knackered, the fact we still dug in to get a late equaliser and then still could have won the game is all the more remarkable. That alone might not seem like justification, especially when coupled with further injuries, but it’s still a point gained. 

 

There are all kinds of examples to suit whichever way your bread is buttered. Man City, Ranieri the “tinkerman”, Man United regularly used over 30 players but then Villa won the league using only 14 in a 42 game season with 7 ever-presents. 

 

No doubt it’s a different challenge in 2019 to that which it was in 1981 but by the same token, the players are fitter and better conditioned too. 

 

Ultimately, we’re in the top two with everything to play for in the next four months or so. Farke’s team selections and rotation (or lack of it) has us in that position. Perhaps his chickens will come home to roost (lame, presumably) and we can all bemoan his stubbornness then. 

 

All I’d add is that even playing at the desperately poor standard I did, if we were winning and on a good run we didn’t complain about little knocks or a sniffle, you were desperate to keep your place and play again because 

 

a) It’s bloody good fun

b) If you cry off and they keep winning, you don’t know when your next chance will come. 

 

Id lay my last quid that nobody knocked on the gaffers door before Griffin Park saying that they thought they needed a rest. The easy argument in return is that it’s Farkes job to see beyond that and make the hard calls but there can’t be a harder one than drop the players that have taken you on a blindingly consistent and successful run. 

 

Anyway, the selection for Pompey will no doubt raise plenty of eyebrows whatever he decides.

 

OTBC

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14 hours ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Personally I think Farke should have rotate more regularly earlier in the season. Even though Norwich got a point, two players were injured in the process so hard to say that ‘he got it right’. When others could have started ahead of them without it seemingly harming the teams ability to not get beat. 

Being able to introduce different players "without it seemingly harming the teams ability to not get beat" surely is the key to why DF has seemed reluctant to start e.g. Marshall and Hanley, even when fit. I don't think it's an accident that we first only really saw the slick passing, full of movement brand of football to which we are now accustomed from Match 7 onwards, the start of the period when both Marshall and Hanley were absent due to injury. Both are indeed "proven Championship players", but we are not playing "Championship football" except in the obvious sense of playing in that particular league. DF's preference for e.g. Cantwell and Srbeny is because they are able to slot in seamlessly. How do I know Marshall and Hanley aren't able to do that too? I don't, but I'm pretty sure that if they could, they would have got a call before now. 

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Bravo Westie. That is a very likely interpretation - and quite likely one understood by both Hanley and Marshall. It is not ‘how good they can play’, but rather ‘how they play’ that is likely key here. 

Particularly the elevation of Godfrey, the repeatedly ‘forgiving’ approach to Zimmerman and the rapid reintegration of Klose may well be due to their superior passing, natural tendencies to sense danger a half second later than Hanley (a good thing if the aim is retain possession in tight areas) and the absence of the metronomic Leitner contributes much to the ability of midfielders to receive better quality passes, make better angles to receive and ferry on, all slightly higher up the field. 

Parma

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Posted (edited)

I think we will see McLean introduced as soon as he is fit. Midfield was key against Brentford. I was at the game and we were not matching Brentford in midfield, especially after losing Tettey imo. January is going to be a very challenging month , because of the fixtures but mainly because of the injuries now. I thought Godfrey did very well , but the midfield did not look like that of a promotion challenging side! Cantwell gave his all , but I agree he was often too lightweight against the likes of Sawyers, etc

On the Hanley debate...I am not so sure he would have made a telling difference. Would we not have conceded the goal on a corner  kick like we did , with him in the side ? I am not so sure and neither are all the (other 😉 )keyboard managers...

Edited by ROBFLECK

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6 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

Being able to introduce different players "without it seemingly harming the teams ability to not get beat" surely is the key to why DF has seemed reluctant to start e.g. Marshall and Hanley, even when fit. I don't think it's an accident that we first only really saw the slick passing, full of movement brand of football to which we are now accustomed from Match 7 onwards, the start of the period when both Marshall and Hanley were absent due to injury. Both are indeed "proven Championship players", but we are not playing "Championship football" except in the obvious sense of playing in that particular league. DF's preference for e.g. Cantwell and Srbeny is because they are able to slot in seamlessly. How do I know Marshall and Hanley aren't able to do that too? I don't, but I'm pretty sure that if they could, they would have got a call before now. 

Farke has to be able to work with the players he has. It won’t be possible to do a 50+ game season with just 15/16 players and even if Hanley and Marshall aren’t perfect for his system he has to adapt or find a way to use them  

Hanely and Marshall don’t have to be first choice, but not using the full ability of the squad wil cause issues with injuries and preparedness. 

Hopefully obviously drained players like Zimmermann, Cantwell and by Farke’s own admission, Godfrey can have a break and regain some fitness for the WBA game. 

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13 hours ago, Felixfan said:

Winning teams rarely rotate their squad.

Best comment so far in this thread. 

Only thing I would say against Farke (and what someone else said previous) is that instead of bringing on League 2 Srbeny on for last 5 minutes when we need a goal, bring on Marshall, stretch the game and have balls flying in to the box for Pukki and Rhodes.

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4 minutes ago, Bex said:

Best comment so far in this thread. 

Only thing I would say against Farke (and what someone else said previous) is that instead of bringing on League 2 Srbeny on for last 5 minutes when we need a goal, bring on Marshall, stretch the game and have balls flying in to the box for Pukki and Rhodes.

Man City and Tottenham have fielded and unchanged XI in the league once this season, Liverpool have only done so twice.  

The myth that the best teams don’t rotate is just that, a myth. 

Push your first team too hard and risk fatigue, which leads to injuries. 

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41 minutes ago, ROBFLECK said:

I think we will see McLean introduced as soon as he is fit. Midfield was key against Brentford. I was at the game and we were not matching Brentford in midfield, especially after losing Tettey imo. January is going to be a very challenging month , because of the fixtures but mainly because of the injuries now. I thought Godfrey did very well , but the midfield did not look like that of a promotion challenging side! Cantwell gave his all , but I agree he was often too lightweight against the likes of Sawyers, etc

On the Hanley debate...I am not so sure he would have made a telling difference. Would we not have conceded the goal on a corner  kick like we did , with him in the side ? I am not so sure and neither are all the (other 😉 )keyboard managers...

Anybody know how close he is to fitness - I thought that he was due back before now?

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14 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

Was just about to say this. With Klose out of contract in the summer, and Zimmermann a largely dependable if unspectacular understudy, I'd say that Hanley and Godfrey will be our first-choice partnership when the dust settles. Hanley is deceptively fast as well as being a good all-round defender, and Godfrey is clearly being primed for the role of a modern centre-back who is quick, agile and can distribute the ball well.

Hanley has simply been a victim of injury, followed by a settled team getting a string of good results.

Unfair to Zimmerman. At their best Klose & Cristoph have been - as a unit - our best performers. Unfortunately Timm's been injured & Christoph's had this strange 'problem with his metabolism' which has affected the partnership

We played some real dog's do with Hanley at the back - & he was there a fair while before injury.

Does this mean I think he's rubbish? Certainly not. You have to take into account the rest of the team - especially as they fit together - when attempting to make judgements. For a simple game, footie can be very complex.

My personal opinion is that replacing Pinto with Aarons has had the most impact on our season.

And Bex, to call Dennis a league 2 standard player is simply not true.

 

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So in summary those with no professional experience or qualifications are criticising someone after the event who has more information, experience,  and qualifications for playing his most talented players.   

Th se days coaching staff can easily monitors players fitness and recovery times. I know I can train flat out every few days so I’m sure a young professional can. 

It sounds like Farkes critics have no sports coaching qualifications and don’t do any sport  I use a professional sports coach and sometimes I’m on my game and sometimes not regardless of my physical condition  It’s impossible to know especially with touch players exactly how they will perform in an open environment sport 

 

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1 minute ago, ron obvious said:

And Bex, to call Dennis a league 2 standard player is simply not true.

I called him a more exotic Aaron Wilbraham on twitter and I stand by it.

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12 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Man City and Tottenham have fielded and unchanged XI in the league once this season, Liverpool have only done so twice.  

The myth that the best teams don’t rotate is just that, a myth. 

Push your first team too hard and risk fatigue, which leads to injuries. 

I guess I sort of meant it in a sense of our level being in the Championship and the money we have available to us also. We don't have 40mil players sitting on the bench. We do have quality past our first 11, but we are winning for a reason. I'm not disagreeing with the notion that we should rotate. But I for one standby the fact that if you're winning games (or not losing and maintaining top 2 position in the league) and a professional head coach sees his players day in day out in training, along with updates from his medical staff, why change?

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7 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

And Bex, to call Dennis a league 2 standard player is simply not true.

 

Ok then, that's your opinion.

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7 minutes ago, king canary said:

I called him a more exotic Aaron Wilbraham on twitter and I stand by it.

Because Wilbraham is English and Srbeny is German? :classic_laugh:

I've not come here to slate Dennis Srbeny, but come on.............It's not an insult to call him a League 2 player...he's a professional footballer and what he shows on the pitch is of that standard.

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9 minutes ago, Bex said:

Because Wilbraham is English and Srbeny is German? :classic_laugh:

I've not come here to slate Dennis Srbeny, but come on.............It's not an insult to call him a League 2 player...he's a professional footballer and what he shows on the pitch is of that standard.

Exactly- both big bean pole strikers who are mainly there to chuck in for 10 minutes off the bench to be a pain in the **** for defenders but not of the required quality to be a starter at this level. 

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12 minutes ago, Bex said:

Because Wilbraham is English and Srbeny is German? :classic_laugh:

I've not come here to slate Dennis Srbeny, but come on.............It's not an insult to call him a League 2 player...he's a professional footballer and what he shows on the pitch is of that standard.

I think you see what you want to see

https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/norwich-city/norwich-city-player-watch-srbeny-so-close-to-being-the-hero-during-cruel-cup-defeat-for-canaries-1-5758405

Verdict: Really could – and perhaps should – have been the hero. Denied by a post but had to beat Boruc in the first half. Big chance to stake a claim slips away but would cause Championship defences problems with this kind of performance.

Rating: 7 out of 10

He's produced similar performances whenever he's come on this year.

And I've seen Rhodes miss just as many chances; is he a league 2 player also?

 

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I think a number of people forget that there are a lot of people out there looking at us in bemusement at how well we're doing. On paper we've got a bang average championship squad and the fact that we have a manager that has got any combination of them working so cohesively to have us in the automatic promotion slots just over the half way spot, and still somehow managing to pick up points despite the injury of a lot of key players is incredible. 

I get people wondering about the alternatives, but given that it's clear that DF clearly knows well what he's doing while also having the opportunity to see how other options like Marshall and Hanley are performing day in and day out, I don't really get how anyone can say 'he was wrong' in such a categoric manner as some are. 

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