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*****Official Match thread v Brentford*****

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13 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

Whoscored.com made Vrancic MOM! 

Struggled first half but better in the second, technically got an 'assist'.

But the team's passing was generally lacklustre. Vrancic himself was nearly 20% down on his average.

Despite that, we were still better at passing the ball than Brentford. In one of our poorer performances, with key players out injured. Not a bad thing.

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29 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

Thanks for the numbers kc, always helpful to those who can't count. As it's a forum , I too, can post my opinion. While no one actually said that they shouldn't wear the shirt again, it's clear that some of the criticism is of the moment and way over the top. Well done on the use of the word critique, you can dress it up any way you want, ultimately it isn't praise.I didn't say that comments on here would affect performances did I?

I'm not really sure how "It might not be a popular opinion but cut the boys some slack, now, more than ever, they need your support" about posts on a forum can be interpretted as you thinking comments might have an affect. Unless you're worried the crowd aren't giving the players enough support?

If you interpret anything that isn't praise as stick then fine but it seems a pretty simplistic view of things. I think Bethnal put it well on another thread about Farke- 'He’s got a hell of a lot more right than wrong this season, but doesn’t mean that he should never be criticised or questioned.' 

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I don't see why you can't say what you saw.

I saw an awful game, both teams, and there is no way to dress it up. Tiredness, injuries are both valid and acceptable reasons why we played poorly but not an excuse. We do have cover in all positions apart from LB so I think we can rotate if the need arises. I prefer to analyse a game at a time and Derby was a real tonic and we got nothing whereas Brentford was poor and we got something. From now on, picking up points will become harder but in reality all that is required. So if we play as we did against Brentford when we play WBA but get a point or three then at this stage it is wonderful. But that won't stop it be a poor game.

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Quite simply, comments on a forum do have an affect.  There are plenty of people who read this but don't feel the need to contribute. If they read a constant critical view it's likely to permeate to a wider audience. That in turn affects the atmosphere at games and ultimately has an effect on performance levels. Perhaps the word 'stick ' is simplistic,  but if it isn't complimentary it's unlikely to be positive is it?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, splendidrush said:

 Perhaps the word 'stick ' is simplistic,  but if it isn't complimentary it's unlikely to be positive is it?

The most positive contributions are the ones that capture the truth, and the best debates on here are those that help us all to see things as they are (except of course for the real WUMs who then reveal their true colours by their failure to contribute sensibly). As I said earlier to Nutty, a spade's a spade and it really doesn't help to pretend it's anything else.

Edited by westcoastcanary
Added final sentence.
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1 minute ago, westcoastcanary said:

The most positive contributions are the ones that capture the truth, and the best debates on here are those that help us all to see things as they are (except of course for the real WUMs who then reveal their true colours by their failure to contribute sensibly).

Exactly. If the criticism is both valid and somewhat constructive then it isn't an issue. Funny when people who don't understand this get challenged they respond with 'I'm allowed an opinion' without realising it's them that want to shut down others opinions...

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, king canary said:

Exactly. If the criticism is both valid and somewhat constructive then it isn't an issue. Funny when people who don't understand this get challenged they respond with 'I'm allowed an opinion' without realising it's them that want to shut down others opinions...

👍 Isn't a valid criticism a fortiori a constructive criticism though?  I mean, if a criticism is valid, you will do well to take account of it if you want to improve, rather than ignore it.

Edited by westcoastcanary
Clarification -- I hope!

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Quite simply, comments on a forum do have an affect.  There are plenty of people who read this but don't feel the need to contribute. If they read a constant critical view it's likely to permeate to a wider audience. That in turn affects the atmosphere at games and ultimately has an effect on performance levels. Perhaps the word 'stick ' is simplistic,  but if it isn't complimentary it's unlikely to be positive is it?

There are some unique clubs like Liverpool and Portsmouth whose fans sing, chant etc right from the start and even during a poor performance. But I think the atmosphere at Carrow Road depends on the performance. So while your thoughts are admirable they aren't really realistic. You did say you missed the Brentford game. Personally I can't dress the performance any more than disjointed and poor.

If I was there, that wouldn't have stopped me singing or cheering. Or grinning like a Cheshire Cat that we got a point and improved or position against several clubs. But afterwards would admit it was poor. That doesn't mean to say I expect the next one to be. But if it was, would definitely say so.

We know many are waiting for four losses on the spin and us to drop out of the top six and we know who they are. But they are as blind as those who will not admit to watching a poor game.

I think that if you are consistent in your praise as well as your disappointment then that is fair

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1 hour ago, westcoastcanary said:

👍 Isn't a valid criticism a fortiori a constructive criticism though?  I mean, if a criticism is valid, you will do well to take account of it if you want to improve, rather than ignore it.

You really are going for forum pedant aren't you 😄

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6 hours ago, king canary said:

You really are going for forum pedant aren't you 😄

Faced by the dual onslaught on language represented by ubiquitous text-speak on the one hand and misguided "progressive thinking" on the other, the civilised world is in desperate need of pedants :classic_biggrin:

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I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  I think it's fair to say that most supporters were hoping for us to consolidate this season. With the sale of Maddison we were looking to improve on last year's position and to be pushing for a playoff place at best.  The fact that we have massively over performed so far doesn't mean that we're entitled to win at Brentford, or that with our injury list, a performance reminiscent of last year wasn't likely. The criticism is based on the fact that we're supposed to perform at this level consistently isn't balanced, constructive or valid..... Sometimes I think people are looking for something to complain about. 

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The criticism is based on the fact that we're supposed to perform at this level consistently isn't balanced, constructive or valid.....

But not unexpected. I guarantee that if we do continue with some poor form and don't get the results, there will be complaints.I think on the day, match analysis leading to criticism is fair but not over the whole season. So far, this season has been a resounding success. 

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16 hours ago, splendidrush said:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  I think it's fair to say that most supporters were hoping for us to consolidate this season. With the sale of Maddison we were looking to improve on last year's position and to be pushing for a playoff place at best.  The fact that we have massively over performed so far doesn't mean that we're entitled to win at Brentford, or that with our injury list, a performance reminiscent of last year wasn't likely. The criticism is based on the fact that we're supposed to perform at this level consistently isn't balanced, constructive or valid..... Sometimes I think people are looking for something to complain about. 

It sounds like in your ideal world this forum would be entirely posts of 'shame we didn't win but we're still having a great season!'

Thrilling.

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Posted (edited)

At what point do we stop 'having a great season' though?  And what would be acceptable from here?  It's got more complicated by us over-achieving and sitting in the automatic promotion spots.  For me, anything less than a playoff place now would be a real disappointment, given what we've achieved up to now.

Edited by Woodman

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Don't agree that we are over-achieving. 

We are achieving and obviously hope that carries on, but to say we are over-achieving is not really right imo, as it implies we are playing better than the quality of players we have, but imo our players are among the best in the division, so we are just achieving what we are capable of - top two.

To maintain that is going to be a challenge, but we proved against Forest and Derby we can play fantastic football without Leitner and Buendia and that we are going to be competitive whoever plays in the team.  That means it should lead to a strong challenge from here on in, hopefully achieving a top two place at the end.  That would be one heck of an achievement, but not an over-achievement. 

 

 

 

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It isn't a matter of over achieving. It is clearly a season, so far, that has brought success that was unexpected by the majority of supporters.

What we expect from here has been complicated that our progress has seen us challenging.

So I would expect to see us at least in the play offs from here onwards. We have had a reasonable December in terms of points considering our injury list as well. I am hoping that in a months time we will be back to full strength.

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Perhaps I'm confusing achievements with expectations.  Agreed that if we can get through West Brom, Birmingham, Sheff Utd, Leeds and Ipswich and still be in the top 3, my own expectations will be more ambitious than a top 6 place.

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4 hours ago, Woodman said:

At what point do we stop 'having a great season' though?  And what would be acceptable from here?  It's got more complicated by us over-achieving and sitting in the automatic promotion spots.  For me, anything less than a playoff place now would be a real disappointment, given what we've achieved up to now.

2 hours ago, Woodman said:

Perhaps I'm confusing achievements with expectations.  Agreed that if we can get through West Brom, Birmingham, Sheff Utd, Leeds and Ipswich and still be in the top 3, my own expectations will be more ambitious than a top 6 place.

Surely league position is irrelevant. All that matters is Carrow Road's standing on the entertainment scale. On that scale you can have a high reading at Christmas and plummet to the bottom by May, just ask Chris Hughton .........😜

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Posted (edited)

Somewhere on this thread (or another) someone said we deserved the draw on Tuesday, but to have taken all three points would have been robbery. And another poster warned those baiting the always-totally-objective westcoastcanary that he would retaliate by posting Experimental 361's xG graphic for the match. One wrong (the draw was tantamount to robbery, never mind the win), one right!

image.thumb.png.300ea2bc8e47b71d783979f48146f1fd.png

Edited by westcoastcanary

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On 02/01/2019 at 17:40, westcoastcanary said:

👍 Isn't a valid criticism a fortiori a constructive criticism though?  I mean, if a criticism is valid, you will do well to take account of it if you want to improve, rather than ignore it.

I'm going to fight you for the "Pedant of the Pink Un" title, despite your impressive use of Latin/legal jargon. 

 

" Ipswich are rubbish" - valid, yes; constructive, no. Constructive means  "helping to develop or improve something; helpful to someone, instead of upsetting and negative". You can be valid without being constructive.

 

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I'm going to fight you for the "Pedant of the Pink Un" title, despite your impressive use of Latin/legal jargon. " Ipswich are rubbish" - valid, yes; constructive, no. Constructive means  "helping to develop or improve something; helpful to someone, instead of upsetting and negative". You can be valid without being constructive.

I'll happily surrender the title just to have you join the club Nuff. But on this evidence I'm afraid you aren't sufficiently well qualified. No pedant would make the mistake of equating validity with truth. "Ipswich are rubbish" is arguably true, but "valid" it is not. However, pointing out that Ipswich are rubbish might well play a part in valid (and hence constructive) criticism. Accepting that you have a problem is always a necessary step in trying to address it -- just look at the levels of denial displayed on TWTD for example! No wiser source than Solomon has attested to the link between validity and constructiveness in the case of criticism:

Proverbs 25:12 — To one who listens, valid criticism is like a gold earring or other gold jewellery.

PS  "a fortiori" is actually a term of logic (which is why it also often features in legal "jargon"). It refers to a (valid) form of argument in which a further conclusion is drawn from a previously accepted conclusion of which it is part. For instance: "There were ten people in the room, so a fortiori there were five people in the room".

 

Edited by westcoastcanary

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