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Unofficial Official Match Thread.

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7 hours ago, Red Rufus said:

Seems like a lot of hot air coming from westcoast, the simple fact is that all 11 players are being asked to get the ball down and play all over the pitch and in doing so this will increase the chances of dispossession by the opposition. This is the trend that most teams are following in the top two divisions. When it comes off it is sweet on the eye, when it doesn't there will always be a risk of conceding goal scoring opportunities. The only time I see a hack into the stands is when it is a last ditch interception / tackle. It has been successful so far apart from the odd blip.......like yesterday! Personally, I am enjoying watching us play this way despite the obvious risks.

Anybody who has followed my posts knows that I have been a staunch supporter of DF ever since he arrived, defending what he was doing through the whole of last season, for example, when countless posters on here were grumbling (including nutty, who complained bitterly that he was bored and hankered after the football we played under Alex Neil), criticising the possession based style of football and howling with frustration when the ball went backwards or goal kicks were played sideways to the CBs. Long before that I was posting about how we needed to adopt precisely this style of play, and modernise our game, even supporting Chris Hughton in his attempt to do precisely that. Where were you in those days Rufus? As one of the minority on here who have long advocated the need to change to precisely this style of football, I don't need any lectures about the merits of possession-based football and playing out from the back. 

My comments on Max Aarons's goal-conceding error against Forest are not a criticism of the style of football we are playing but of one particular failure to implement it correctly; I repeat, "to implement it correctly".  

In an away game earlier this season, against a team likewise being encouraged to play out from the back, the opposition keeper short passed the ball to the midfield playmaker on the edge of the penalty area, despite the near presence of a number of our forward players. Buendia (I think it was), robbed him of the ball, ran into the box, and scored. Do you really think "playing out from the back" means engaging in that sort of asking-for-trouble play? It doesn't.

Edited by westcoastcanary
Added final paragraph.

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I have been around for a few years west coast in answer to your question, I don't specifically follow you or anyone else so have no idea of your previous posts. Usually I prefer to read rather than post as keyboard discussions very rarely settle any arguments. I am 100% certain that playing out from the back invites more opportunities to lose possession in a dangerous area of the pitch which is a slightly different set of words to those you used.

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2 hours ago, Red Rufus said:

 I am 100% certain that playing out from the back invites more opportunities to lose possession in a dangerous area of the pitch which is a slightly different set of words to those you used.

I'm 100% certain of that too, and, as I've said, every bit as committed an advocate of the possession-keeping, playing-out-from-the-back game as any. But the fact is, however experienced and technically good you are, there are times when it's not possible without exposing yourself to unacceptable and unnecessary risk. The Man Citys of this world know and accept it and if it's good enough for them, it should be good enough for us. 

Edited by westcoastcanary
Typos

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Almost every premier league game this weekend had goals conceded by teams trying to play out from the back including Man City. Despite their left back getting caught on the ball they still played some very risky passes in their own penalty area one of which resulted in an excellent move culminating with Mahrez nearly scoring. Mistakes happen and will continue to happen until the current trend of playing out from the back is overtaken by the next trend.

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Almost every premier league game this weekend had goals conceded by teams trying to play out from the back including Man City. Despite their left back getting caught on the ball they still played some very risky passes in their own penalty area one of which resulted in an excellent move culminating with Mahrez nearly scoring. Mistakes happen and will continue to happen until the current trend of playing out from the back is overtaken by the next trend.

That is a good point Double R. And teams are now wising up, particularly Liverpool and us I believe, that winning the ball back in the opponents half is far safer. So teams are now pressing from the start.

Of course, a problem for us seems to be set pieces. So is it lack of concentration? Lack of organisation? Zonal marking? Or not enough practise on the training ground?

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If I knew the answer to that I wouldn't be sitting at home posting on here😀.

Personally i don't think zonal marking works for any team, call me old fashioned but man for man for me. Players movement, blocking, shirt pulling etc make it difficult with set pieces, both of their first half goals could be considered lucky in that they dropped to one of their players, one with an unstoppable finish and the other which found its way through a crowded area. It is also difficult to practice as most teams have their own specific set plays.

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8 hours ago, Red Rufus said:

Almost every premier league game this weekend had goals conceded by teams trying to play out from the back including Man City. Despite their left back getting caught on the ball they still played some very risky passes in their own penalty area one of which resulted in an excellent move culminating with Mahrez nearly scoring. Mistakes happen and will continue to happen until the current trend of playing out from the back is overtaken by the next trend.

And are we to conclude that Guardiola's post-match dressing room comments were along the lines of "never mind lads, just keep on playing those risky passes however risky they may be"?

Incidentally, while on this subject, has anybody noticed that Krul doesn't always play goal kicks short to a waiting CB or withdrawn midfielder on the edge of the box? No he doesn't. What happens is he weighs up whether it's safe to do it depending on the positioning and readiness of our own and opposition players, frequently concluding that the right option is to kick long. If Krul insisted on kicking short to eg. Klose when an opposition forward was in a position to possibly win the ball, he would be crucified on here. 

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I wouldn't crucify him, I am not a scapegoater, I think he is improving after a shaky start. Who am I to know what words Pep would use but I am certain he will continue to insist his team play out from the back for the vast majority of the time. Also, Tim is taking a dead ball kick which is a totally different situation to the Max mistake.

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21 minutes ago, Red Rufus said:

I wouldn't crucify him, I am not a scapegoater, I think he is improving after a shaky start. Who am I to know what words Pep would use but I am certain he will continue to insist his team play out from the back for the vast majority of the time. Also, Tim is taking a dead ball kick which is a totally different situation to the Max mistake.

Nor am I (a scapegoater), but just look at the recurrent Krul threads! My point was that Krul's goal kicking is an illustration of the rule being, not "play out from the back" full stop, but "play out from the back unless to do so would be too risky". Yes, that's dead ball, not open play, but the rule is the same for both. Re. Guardiola, if what he insists on is that his team play out from the back "for the vast majority of the time", that's really no different from my "rule". The extent to which you have to adjust depends largely on the opposition's tactics (and how awake your own players are).

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I find myself agreeing with Westcoast far more than I'm used to of late but the idea Hughton was attempting to install a possession based, play out from the back system is a return to form.

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I happen to disagree with the recurrent Krul threads, I admit he is not as good as Gunn was last season but many people on here love a scapegoat and seem to miss the positives once they have an opinion formed it very rarely changes. IMO he is at the moment a very good championship keeper. I agree the rule is the same but the situations are totally different as Krul has time to weigh up all the options whereas in open play this is not always the case and a mistake when the ball is live is far more likely than when it is dead.

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43 minutes ago, king canary said:

I find myself agreeing with Westcoast far more than I'm used to of late but the idea Hughton was attempting to install a possession based, play out from the back system is a return to form.

:classic_biggrin: 👍 I noticed king; great to have you back. What I meant about Hughton was that he too set out to change the football philosophy of the club, dragging us (screaming) away from an unsustainable style of play to one better suited to surviving in the EPL As I see it, the appointments of Adams and Neil showed that the board at that time really hadn't got the message. When history then repeated itself under Alex Neil, the need for change became too evident to ignore.  

Edited by westcoastcanary
Typo -- word order

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34 minutes ago, Red Rufus said:

I happen to disagree with the recurrent Krul threads, I admit he is not as good as Gunn was last season but many people on here love a scapegoat and seem to miss the positives once they have an opinion formed it very rarely changes. IMO he is at the moment a very good championship keeper. I agree the rule is the same but the situations are totally different as Krul has time to weigh up all the options whereas in open play this is not always the case and a mistake when the ball is live is far more likely than when it is dead.

Don't disagree with any of that RR. Enjoyed the to-and-fro; time now methinks to move on!

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30 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

:classic_biggrin: 👍 I noticed king; great to have you back. What I meant about Hughton was that he too set out to change the football philosophy of the club, dragging us (screaming) away from an unsustainable style of play to one better suited to surviving in the EPL As I see it, the appointments of Adams and Neil showed that the board at that time really hadn't got the message. When history then repeated itself under Alex Neil, the need for change became too evident to ignore.  

Yes, although I'd argue Hughton's footballing philosophy was no more sustainable for us than the others mentioned.

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Liverpool are the best team around at the moment. Not only because they have good players but they, like the ManU teams of the 90/00's, have the ability and tactic to play it different ways. Pep's way is probably the most extreme. I think we do play it long sometimes, when the chance to do it arrives, and the Aarons **** up was one mistake and the Tettey **** up was another. But of course we don't have the players with the same ability as ManCity.

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